Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays???

PTRAVEL > writes:

> I guess you didn't read the thread. I've never seen any evidence
> that he actually existed.

Oh, come on; that's a cop-out. The same could be said of *any* figure
who lived before modern times, and yet, there's practically universal
consensus that any number of historical figures actually existed des-
pite their being no direct evidence of it. What evidence do you have
that, say, Christopher Columbus actually existed? It's not as though
he left anything tangible behind, like paintings with his name signed
to them.


> To me, and to my non-Christian friends, he's a myth -- no different
> than Gilgamesh.

It seems to me that your being non-Christian is orthogonal to the
matter of whether there's any evidence of Jesus's existence.


> If, on the other hand, he did exist, he was an Essene -- a member
> of a hermitic cult that was about as far from main stream Judaism
> as Shintoism is today.

They don't have to have been in, or close to, the Jewish mainstream
in order to be Jewish. The mainstream isn't the whole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes

"Ancient Essene communications protocols routed around obscenity
vulgarity pornography. Content? Absolute yes! Delete! Delete! OK!
Do not drink newsgroup" -- Blair Haworth


> Suggesting that, as a Jew, I should "celebrate" the birth of someone
> who my religion regards as a false prophet and counterfeit Messiah,
> in whose name unspeakable things have been done to my ancestors for
> 2,000 years, and whose adherents (at least some) seem intent on
> hijacking the country which I claim as my own (and for which my
> father fought and was wounded) so that they can install a Christian
> theocracy is, frankly, extremely offensive.

Do you honestly believe that Bush and company would like to install a
Christian theocracy? If so, that undermines your credibility pretty
severely. Yes, the man is a Christian. So what? Why do liberals,
particularly liberal Jews (like there's any other kind) feel so
threatened by Christianity? Booogaboogabooga!


> I do not, however, share your beliefs, I don't want to share your
> beliefs, and I'd be very happy if you'd accord me the same courtesy
> that I accord you and not insist that I participate in your beliefs
> to the extent of "celebrating" the birth of someone I regard as
> mythical and superfluous to my own search for meaning and purpose.

Except to the extremely devout, Christmas is a secular holiday and
has been for ages. Get over youself. Or if you're not careful,
after there's been a Republican coup, you'll have a surprise visit
from the Christmas Tree Police some Christmas Eve.


"It's hard to be a Jew on Christmas.
My friends wont let me join in any games.
And I cant sing Christmas songs
Or decorate a Christmas tree
Or leave water out for Rudolph
`Cause there's something wrong with me.
My people don't believe in Jesus Christ's divinity.

I'm a Jew,
A lonely Jew
On Christmas.
Hanukkah is nice but why is it
That Santa passes over my house every year?

And instead of eating ham I have to eat kosher latkes
Instead of Silent Night I'm singing
Hoo Hact Toh Gaveesh
And what the **** is up with lighting all these
****ing candles please?

I'm a Jew,
A lonely Jew
I can't be merry
`Cause I'm Hebrew
On Christmas."

-- Kyle Broflofski


Geoff

--
"Kwanzaa bells, dashikis sell, Whitey has to pay;
Burning, shooting, oh what fun, On this made-up holiday!
-- Ann Coulter

> severely. Yes, the man is a Christian. So what? Why do liberals,
> particularly liberal Jews (like there's any other kind) feel so
> threatened by Christianity? Booogaboogabooga!

Because jerks such as yourself represent them?

JohnH > writes:

: Why do liberals, particularly liberal Jews (like there's
: any other kind) feel so threatened by Christianity?
: Booogaboogabooga!

> Because jerks such as yourself represent them?


Why am I a "jerk," and how do you know I'm a Christian?



Geoff

--
"Kwanzaa bells, dashikis sell, Whitey has to pay;
Burning, shooting, oh what fun, On this made-up holiday!
-- Ann Coulter

>> Why do liberals, particularly liberal Jews (like there's
>> any other kind) feel so threatened by Christianity?
>> Booogaboogabooga!
>
>> Because jerks such as yourself represent them?
>
>
> Why am I a "jerk," and how do you know I'm a Christian?

In thinking about it, my post was inappropriate and really pretty stupid.
Sorry, disregard.

"Geoff Miller" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> PTRAVEL > writes:
>
>> I guess you didn't read the thread. I've never seen any evidence
>> that he actually existed.
>
> Oh, come on; that's a cop-out.

No, it's not. There's no historical evidence of Jesus, other than what's
mentioned in the Bible.

> The same could be said of *any* figure
> who lived before modern times, and yet, there's practically universal
> consensus that any number of historical figures actually existed des-
> pite their being no direct evidence of it.

Such as?

> What evidence do you have
> that, say, Christopher Columbus actually existed?

Lots of contemporary documentation, as I recall.

> It's not as though
> he left anything tangible behind, like paintings with his name signed
> to them.

Did you learn your history from a comic book?

>
>
>> To me, and to my non-Christian friends, he's a myth -- no different
>> than Gilgamesh.
>
> It seems to me that your being non-Christian is orthogonal to the
> matter of whether there's any evidence of Jesus's existence.

Okay, let me put it another way. Why should I even care? Okay, you win --
he existed. There is all sorts of proof -- photographs of him in his high
school year book, laundry receipts, credit card applications.

So what?

>
>
>> If, on the other hand, he did exist, he was an Essene -- a member
>> of a hermitic cult that was about as far from main stream Judaism
>> as Shintoism is today.
>
> They don't have to have been in, or close to, the Jewish mainstream
> in order to be Jewish.

1. Says you. Sorry, but you are about the last person I would look to for
halachal rulings.

2. Why should I even care? Okay, you win -- he was Jewish. You've got a
letter from his rabbi, you've seen his bar mitzvah photographs, you were
invited to the seder.

So what?


> The mainstream isn't the whole.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes

You're quoting wikipedia? You've got to be kidding.

>
> "Ancient Essene communications protocols routed around obscenity
> vulgarity pornography. Content? Absolute yes! Delete! Delete! OK!
> Do not drink newsgroup" -- Blair Haworth
>
>
>> Suggesting that, as a Jew, I should "celebrate" the birth of someone
>> who my religion regards as a false prophet and counterfeit Messiah,
>> in whose name unspeakable things have been done to my ancestors for
>> 2,000 years, and whose adherents (at least some) seem intent on
>> hijacking the country which I claim as my own (and for which my
>> father fought and was wounded) so that they can install a Christian
>> theocracy is, frankly, extremely offensive.
>
> Do you honestly believe that Bush and company would like to install a
> Christian theocracy?

Yes.

> If so, that undermines your credibility pretty
> severely.
> Yes, the man is a Christian. So what?

All of our presidents have been Christians of one form or another, and there
is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's not belief in Jesus Christ that
I'm criticizing, but being an adherent to a minority experssion of
Christianity that believes that their understanding of God trumps the
Constitution, and that this should be a Christian nation (albeit only their
version of Christianity).


> Why do liberals,
> particularly liberal Jews (like there's any other kind) feel so
> threatened by Christianity?

I'm not a liberal.

Notwithstanding, have you read any history? Or, perhaps, even this thread?

My short list of Bush/Christian Fundamentalist actions which I find
threatening:

1. Banning funding of new-line stem cell research.
2. Funding of the "Support Marriage" initiative to the tune of $1 billion.
3. Establishment of the Department of Faith-Based Initiatives, with federal
tax dollars going to religious organizations with little or no oversight.
4. Nominating an unqualified lawyer to be a Supreme Court justice solely on
the basis of "religousness" that would ensure over-turning Roe v. Wade.
5. Eliminating U.S. funding of international health initiatives that
included abortion.
6. Supporting a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage.
7. Supporting the teaching of creationism in public schools.
8. Funding prostelytization by evangelical Christian groups, as long as
their religious message includes "abstinence education."

And my personal favorite -- when Bush was governor of Texas:

9. Proclaiming "Jesus Christ Day" in Texas.


> Booogaboogabooga!

Ah, the sound of the Constitution washing down the drain.

>
>
>> I do not, however, share your beliefs, I don't want to share your
>> beliefs, and I'd be very happy if you'd accord me the same courtesy
>> that I accord you and not insist that I participate in your beliefs
>> to the extent of "celebrating" the birth of someone I regard as
>> mythical and superfluous to my own search for meaning and purpose.
>
> Except to the extremely devout, Christmas is a secular holiday and
> has been for ages.

Who cares? Whatever Christmas is, it isn't a Jewish holiday (or a Budhist
one or Shinto one or Hindu one, etc.)

> Get over youself.

You get over yourself. Who are you to tell me what I should believe, and
what holidays I should observe? How incredibly arrogant. And how
incredibly antisemitic.

PTRAVEL wrote:

> No, it's not. There's no historical evidence of Jesus, other than what's
> mentioned in the Bible.


There is no "historical evidence" about Jesus.

"No direct and first-hand information about Jesus survives.
Information from outside Christian sources is unavailable. One must
therefore rely exclusively on Christian sources. The semi biographical
framework of the gospel stories, however, is the result of the
editorial work of the gospel writers and can therefore not be used for
the reconstruction of the ministry of Jesus. All traditional materials
about Jesus preserved within the framework of the canonical and ([pg
79] some noncanonical gospels have been formed ("inscribed") by the
needs of the communities of Jesus' followers after his death."
[Harvard Professor Helmut Koester. History and Literature of Early
Christianity, Volume 2, Introduction to the New Testament, 2d edition.
(2000), pg. 78-9]
amazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...ganoriginofthe


No NON-CHRISTIAN alive when Jesus lived ever mentions seeing Jesus or
hearing Jesus -- or even hearing about Jesus!
They don't mention the star that heralded His birth.
They don't mention Herod's slaughter of boy babies.
They don't mention crowds gathered to hear Him preach.
They don't mention His trial.
They don't mention His crucifixion.
They don't mention His resurrection.
They never mention anything He said, or anywhere He went, or anything
He thought, or anything He said, or anything He did.

No non-Christian alive when Jesus lived ever mentions Him. Not once.

WHAT ABOUT CHRISTIANS? Neither do they.

Paul, who wrote in the 50s and 60s, does not mention facts about Jesus'
life and ministry. In Paul there is no Mary or Joseph, no trial before
a Roman official, no Jerusalem as the place of His death, no John the
Baptist, no Judas. Paul never mentions any miracles Jesus did. There is
no evidence Paul, (who never met Jesus, who converted not by hearing
stories about Jesus, but in a personal mystic experience) even _knew_
any details of Jesus life outside his crucifixion and resurrection.
Paul's Christ is a mythic godman with no earthly history outside the
crucifixion. Likewise the other early epistles. No mention of the
Galilean Jesus.

As to our Gospels - the surviving four from the dozens of early gospels
-- there is no evidence our modern picked-by-Catholic- priests-in-the-
fourth-century gospels existed before 130 AD. And if our four modern
gospels did exist within 120 years of Jesus' death, there is absolutely
zero evidence they contributed to Christian belief or worship before
130 AD. No Christian writing up through the early first century
mentions our Gospels. They do not quote from them, do not tell any
stories from them, do not recall an miracles from them -- there is no
evidence they knew they existed -- until about 130 AD.

Our Gospel myths about the Galilean Jesus' story were unknown, as far
as the evidence goes, until well into the second century.

There is no contemporary record that Jesus existed. None.

Jesus is not historical. Jesus is a legend.


Dirk Hartog
---------------------
This is the view I have held up to now, though I can modify it if you
disagree; only please give me your reasons if you do. I know I should
bow to your authority, but on an important question like this I would
rather yield to a reasoned argument than to authority alone.
[Pliny the Younger, Letters, 1.20 ]

In article >, PTRAVEL
> wrote:

> "Geoff Miller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > PTRAVEL > writes:
> >
> >> I guess you didn't read the thread. I've never seen any evidence
> >> that he actually existed.
> >
> > Oh, come on; that's a cop-out.
>
> No, it's not. There's no historical evidence of Jesus, other than what's
> mentioned in the Bible.

Josephus makes testimony to his existence.

jay
Fri Dec 30, 2005



>
> > The same could be said of *any* figure
> > who lived before modern times, and yet, there's practically universal
> > consensus that any number of historical figures actually existed des-
> > pite their being no direct evidence of it.
>
> Such as?
>
> > What evidence do you have
> > that, say, Christopher Columbus actually existed?
>
> Lots of contemporary documentation, as I recall.
>
> > It's not as though
> > he left anything tangible behind, like paintings with his name signed
> > to them.
>
> Did you learn your history from a comic book?
>
> >
> >
> >> To me, and to my non-Christian friends, he's a myth -- no different
> >> than Gilgamesh.
> >
> > It seems to me that your being non-Christian is orthogonal to the
> > matter of whether there's any evidence of Jesus's existence.
>
> Okay, let me put it another way. Why should I even care? Okay, you win --
> he existed. There is all sorts of proof -- photographs of him in his high
> school year book, laundry receipts, credit card applications.
>
> So what?
>
> >
> >
> >> If, on the other hand, he did exist, he was an Essene -- a member
> >> of a hermitic cult that was about as far from main stream Judaism
> >> as Shintoism is today.
> >
> > They don't have to have been in, or close to, the Jewish mainstream
> > in order to be Jewish.
>
> 1. Says you. Sorry, but you are about the last person I would look to for
> halachal rulings.
>
> 2. Why should I even care? Okay, you win -- he was Jewish. You've got a
> letter from his rabbi, you've seen his bar mitzvah photographs, you were
> invited to the seder.
>
> So what?
>
>
> > The mainstream isn't the whole.
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes
>
> You're quoting wikipedia? You've got to be kidding.
>
> >
> > "Ancient Essene communications protocols routed around obscenity
> > vulgarity pornography. Content? Absolute yes! Delete! Delete! OK!
> > Do not drink newsgroup" -- Blair Haworth
> >
> >
> >> Suggesting that, as a Jew, I should "celebrate" the birth of someone
> >> who my religion regards as a false prophet and counterfeit Messiah,
> >> in whose name unspeakable things have been done to my ancestors for
> >> 2,000 years, and whose adherents (at least some) seem intent on
> >> hijacking the country which I claim as my own (and for which my
> >> father fought and was wounded) so that they can install a Christian
> >> theocracy is, frankly, extremely offensive.
> >
> > Do you honestly believe that Bush and company would like to install a
> > Christian theocracy?
>
> Yes.
>
> > If so, that undermines your credibility pretty
> > severely.
> > Yes, the man is a Christian. So what?
>
> All of our presidents have been Christians of one form or another, and there
> is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's not belief in Jesus Christ that
> I'm criticizing, but being an adherent to a minority experssion of
> Christianity that believes that their understanding of God trumps the
> Constitution, and that this should be a Christian nation (albeit only their
> version of Christianity).
>
>
> > Why do liberals,
> > particularly liberal Jews (like there's any other kind) feel so
> > threatened by Christianity?
>
> I'm not a liberal.
>
> Notwithstanding, have you read any history? Or, perhaps, even this thread?
>
> My short list of Bush/Christian Fundamentalist actions which I find
> threatening:
>
> 1. Banning funding of new-line stem cell research.
> 2. Funding of the "Support Marriage" initiative to the tune of $1 billion.
> 3. Establishment of the Department of Faith-Based Initiatives, with federal
> tax dollars going to religious organizations with little or no oversight.
> 4. Nominating an unqualified lawyer to be a Supreme Court justice solely on
> the basis of "religousness" that would ensure over-turning Roe v. Wade.
> 5. Eliminating U.S. funding of international health initiatives that
> included abortion.
> 6. Supporting a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage.
> 7. Supporting the teaching of creationism in public schools.
> 8. Funding prostelytization by evangelical Christian groups, as long as
> their religious message includes "abstinence education."
>
> And my personal favorite -- when Bush was governor of Texas:
>
> 9. Proclaiming "Jesus Christ Day" in Texas.
>
>
> > Booogaboogabooga!
>
> Ah, the sound of the Constitution washing down the drain.
>
> >
> >
> >> I do not, however, share your beliefs, I don't want to share your
> >> beliefs, and I'd be very happy if you'd accord me the same courtesy
> >> that I accord you and not insist that I participate in your beliefs
> >> to the extent of "celebrating" the birth of someone I regard as
> >> mythical and superfluous to my own search for meaning and purpose.
> >
> > Except to the extremely devout, Christmas is a secular holiday and
> > has been for ages.
>
> Who cares? Whatever Christmas is, it isn't a Jewish holiday (or a Budhist
> one or Shinto one or Hindu one, etc.)
>
> > Get over youself.
>
> You get over yourself. Who are you to tell me what I should believe, and
> what holidays I should observe? How incredibly arrogant. And how
> incredibly antisemitic.
>
>
>

"Go Fig" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, PTRAVEL
> > wrote:
>
>> "Geoff Miller" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> >
>> > PTRAVEL > writes:
>> >
>> >> I guess you didn't read the thread. I've never seen any evidence
>> >> that he actually existed.
>> >
>> > Oh, come on; that's a cop-out.
>>
>> No, it's not. There's no historical evidence of Jesus, other than what's
>> mentioned in the Bible.
>
> Josephus makes testimony to his existence.

A quick yahoo search suggests that this contention is, at minimum,
controversial. In either event, I'll simply quote what myself:

"Okay, let me put it another way. Why should I even care? Okay, you win --
he existed. There is all sorts of proof -- photographs of him in his high
school year book, laundry receipts, credit card applications.

So what?"

From what I understand, there is historical proof of the existence of
Mohammad. Is that supposed to make me suddenly accept Islaam?


>
> jay
> Fri Dec 30, 2005
>
>
>
>>
>> > The same could be said of *any* figure
>> > who lived before modern times, and yet, there's practically universal
>> > consensus that any number of historical figures actually existed des-
>> > pite their being no direct evidence of it.
>>
>> Such as?
>>
>> > What evidence do you have
>> > that, say, Christopher Columbus actually existed?
>>
>> Lots of contemporary documentation, as I recall.
>>
>> > It's not as though
>> > he left anything tangible behind, like paintings with his name signed
>> > to them.
>>
>> Did you learn your history from a comic book?
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >> To me, and to my non-Christian friends, he's a myth -- no different
>> >> than Gilgamesh.
>> >
>> > It seems to me that your being non-Christian is orthogonal to the
>> > matter of whether there's any evidence of Jesus's existence.
>>
>> Okay, let me put it another way. Why should I even care? Okay, you
>> win --
>> he existed. There is all sorts of proof -- photographs of him in his
>> high
>> school year book, laundry receipts, credit card applications.
>>
>> So what?
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >> If, on the other hand, he did exist, he was an Essene -- a member
>> >> of a hermitic cult that was about as far from main stream Judaism
>> >> as Shintoism is today.
>> >
>> > They don't have to have been in, or close to, the Jewish mainstream
>> > in order to be Jewish.
>>
>> 1. Says you. Sorry, but you are about the last person I would look to
>> for
>> halachal rulings.
>>
>> 2. Why should I even care? Okay, you win -- he was Jewish. You've got
>> a
>> letter from his rabbi, you've seen his bar mitzvah photographs, you were
>> invited to the seder.
>>
>> So what?
>>
>>
>> > The mainstream isn't the whole.
>> >
>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes
>>
>> You're quoting wikipedia? You've got to be kidding.
>>
>> >
>> > "Ancient Essene communications protocols routed around obscenity
>> > vulgarity pornography. Content? Absolute yes! Delete! Delete! OK!
>> > Do not drink newsgroup" -- Blair Haworth
>> >
>> >
>> >> Suggesting that, as a Jew, I should "celebrate" the birth of someone
>> >> who my religion regards as a false prophet and counterfeit Messiah,
>> >> in whose name unspeakable things have been done to my ancestors for
>> >> 2,000 years, and whose adherents (at least some) seem intent on
>> >> hijacking the country which I claim as my own (and for which my
>> >> father fought and was wounded) so that they can install a Christian
>> >> theocracy is, frankly, extremely offensive.
>> >
>> > Do you honestly believe that Bush and company would like to install a
>> > Christian theocracy?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> > If so, that undermines your credibility pretty
>> > severely.
>> > Yes, the man is a Christian. So what?
>>
>> All of our presidents have been Christians of one form or another, and
>> there
>> is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's not belief in Jesus Christ
>> that
>> I'm criticizing, but being an adherent to a minority experssion of
>> Christianity that believes that their understanding of God trumps the
>> Constitution, and that this should be a Christian nation (albeit only
>> their
>> version of Christianity).
>>
>>
>> > Why do liberals,
>> > particularly liberal Jews (like there's any other kind) feel so
>> > threatened by Christianity?
>>
>> I'm not a liberal.
>>
>> Notwithstanding, have you read any history? Or, perhaps, even this
>> thread?
>>
>> My short list of Bush/Christian Fundamentalist actions which I find
>> threatening:
>>
>> 1. Banning funding of new-line stem cell research.
>> 2. Funding of the "Support Marriage" initiative to the tune of $1
>> billion.
>> 3. Establishment of the Department of Faith-Based Initiatives, with
>> federal
>> tax dollars going to religious organizations with little or no oversight.
>> 4. Nominating an unqualified lawyer to be a Supreme Court justice solely
>> on
>> the basis of "religousness" that would ensure over-turning Roe v. Wade.
>> 5. Eliminating U.S. funding of international health initiatives that
>> included abortion.
>> 6. Supporting a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage.
>> 7. Supporting the teaching of creationism in public schools.
>> 8. Funding prostelytization by evangelical Christian groups, as long as
>> their religious message includes "abstinence education."
>>
>> And my personal favorite -- when Bush was governor of Texas:
>>
>> 9. Proclaiming "Jesus Christ Day" in Texas.
>>
>>
>> > Booogaboogabooga!
>>
>> Ah, the sound of the Constitution washing down the drain.
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >> I do not, however, share your beliefs, I don't want to share your
>> >> beliefs, and I'd be very happy if you'd accord me the same courtesy
>> >> that I accord you and not insist that I participate in your beliefs
>> >> to the extent of "celebrating" the birth of someone I regard as
>> >> mythical and superfluous to my own search for meaning and purpose.
>> >
>> > Except to the extremely devout, Christmas is a secular holiday and
>> > has been for ages.
>>
>> Who cares? Whatever Christmas is, it isn't a Jewish holiday (or a
>> Budhist
>> one or Shinto one or Hindu one, etc.)
>>
>> > Get over youself.
>>
>> You get over yourself. Who are you to tell me what I should believe, and
>> what holidays I should observe? How incredibly arrogant. And how
>> incredibly antisemitic.
>>
>>
>>

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 18:56:54 -0800, "PTRAVEL"
> wrote:

>
>"Go Fig" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >, PTRAVEL
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> "Geoff Miller" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > PTRAVEL > writes:
>>> >
>>> >> I guess you didn't read the thread. I've never seen any evidence
>>> >> that he actually existed.
>>> >
>>> > Oh, come on; that's a cop-out.
>>>
>>> No, it's not. There's no historical evidence of Jesus, other than what's
>>> mentioned in the Bible.
>>
>> Josephus makes testimony to his existence.
>
>A quick yahoo search suggests that this contention is, at minimum,
>controversial. In either event, I'll simply quote what myself:
>
>"Okay, let me put it another way. Why should I even care? Okay, you win --
>he existed. There is all sorts of proof -- photographs of him in his high
>school year book, laundry receipts, credit card applications.
>
> So what?"
>
>From what I understand, there is historical proof of the existence of
>Mohammad. Is that supposed to make me suddenly accept Islaam?
>
>
>>
>> jay
>> Fri Dec 30, 2005
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> > The same could be said of *any* figure
>>> > who lived before modern times, and yet, there's practically universal
>>> > consensus that any number of historical figures actually existed des-
>>> > pite their being no direct evidence of it.
>>>
>>> Such as?
>>>
>>> > What evidence do you have
>>> > that, say, Christopher Columbus actually existed?
>>>
>>> Lots of contemporary documentation, as I recall.
>>>
>>> > It's not as though
>>> > he left anything tangible behind, like paintings with his name signed
>>> > to them.
>>>
>>> Did you learn your history from a comic book?
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> To me, and to my non-Christian friends, he's a myth -- no different
>>> >> than Gilgamesh.
>>> >
>>> > It seems to me that your being non-Christian is orthogonal to the
>>> > matter of whether there's any evidence of Jesus's existence.
>>>
>>> Okay, let me put it another way. Why should I even care? Okay, you
>>> win --
>>> he existed. There is all sorts of proof -- photographs of him in his
>>> high
>>> school year book, laundry receipts, credit card applications.
>>>
>>> So what?
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> If, on the other hand, he did exist, he was an Essene -- a member
>>> >> of a hermitic cult that was about as far from main stream Judaism
>>> >> as Shintoism is today.
>>> >
>>> > They don't have to have been in, or close to, the Jewish mainstream
>>> > in order to be Jewish.
>>>
>>> 1. Says you. Sorry, but you are about the last person I would look to
>>> for
>>> halachal rulings.
>>>
>>> 2. Why should I even care? Okay, you win -- he was Jewish. You've got
>>> a
>>> letter from his rabbi, you've seen his bar mitzvah photographs, you were
>>> invited to the seder.
>>>
>>> So what?
>>>
>>>
>>> > The mainstream isn't the whole.
>>> >
>>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes
>>>
>>> You're quoting wikipedia? You've got to be kidding.
>>>
>>> >
>>> > "Ancient Essene communications protocols routed around obscenity
>>> > vulgarity pornography. Content? Absolute yes! Delete! Delete! OK!
>>> > Do not drink newsgroup" -- Blair Haworth
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> Suggesting that, as a Jew, I should "celebrate" the birth of someone
>>> >> who my religion regards as a false prophet and counterfeit Messiah,
>>> >> in whose name unspeakable things have been done to my ancestors for
>>> >> 2,000 years, and whose adherents (at least some) seem intent on
>>> >> hijacking the country which I claim as my own (and for which my
>>> >> father fought and was wounded) so that they can install a Christian
>>> >> theocracy is, frankly, extremely offensive.
>>> >
>>> > Do you honestly believe that Bush and company would like to install a
>>> > Christian theocracy?
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>>
>>> > If so, that undermines your credibility pretty
>>> > severely.
>>> > Yes, the man is a Christian. So what?
>>>
>>> All of our presidents have been Christians of one form or another, and
>>> there
>>> is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's not belief in Jesus Christ
>>> that
>>> I'm criticizing, but being an adherent to a minority experssion of
>>> Christianity that believes that their understanding of God trumps the
>>> Constitution, and that this should be a Christian nation (albeit only
>>> their
>>> version of Christianity).
>>>
>>>
>>> > Why do liberals,
>>> > particularly liberal Jews (like there's any other kind) feel so
>>> > threatened by Christianity?
>>>
>>> I'm not a liberal.
>>>
>>> Notwithstanding, have you read any history? Or, perhaps, even this
>>> thread?
>>>
>>> My short list of Bush/Christian Fundamentalist actions which I find
>>> threatening:
>>>
>>> 1. Banning funding of new-line stem cell research.
>>> 2. Funding of the "Support Marriage" initiative to the tune of $1
>>> billion.
>>> 3. Establishment of the Department of Faith-Based Initiatives, with
>>> federal
>>> tax dollars going to religious organizations with little or no oversight.
>>> 4. Nominating an unqualified lawyer to be a Supreme Court justice solely
>>> on
>>> the basis of "religousness" that would ensure over-turning Roe v. Wade.
>>> 5. Eliminating U.S. funding of international health initiatives that
>>> included abortion.
>>> 6. Supporting a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage.
>>> 7. Supporting the teaching of creationism in public schools.
>>> 8. Funding prostelytization by evangelical Christian groups, as long as
>>> their religious message includes "abstinence education."
>>>
>>> And my personal favorite -- when Bush was governor of Texas:
>>>
>>> 9. Proclaiming "Jesus Christ Day" in Texas.
>>>
>>>
>>> > Booogaboogabooga!
>>>
>>> Ah, the sound of the Constitution washing down the drain.
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> I do not, however, share your beliefs, I don't want to share your
>>> >> beliefs, and I'd be very happy if you'd accord me the same courtesy
>>> >> that I accord you and not insist that I participate in your beliefs
>>> >> to the extent of "celebrating" the birth of someone I regard as
>>> >> mythical and superfluous to my own search for meaning and purpose.
>>> >
>>> > Except to the extremely devout, Christmas is a secular holiday and
>>> > has been for ages.
>>>
>>> Who cares? Whatever Christmas is, it isn't a Jewish holiday (or a
>>> Budhist
>>> one or Shinto one or Hindu one, etc.)
>>>
>>> > Get over youself.
>>>
>>> You get over yourself. Who are you to tell me what I should believe, and
>>> what holidays I should observe? How incredibly arrogant. And how
>>> incredibly antisemitic.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>

No one should expect to win an argument with that brilliant
know-it-all attorney, PTRAVEL.

PTRAVEL won every debate over whether children should be allowed to
fly.

Here's a copy of his business card:

DEWEY,SCREWEM & HOWE
SUITS PRESSED WHILE YOU WAIT
A REASONABLE DOUBT FOR A REASONABLE PRICE

In article >, PTRAVEL
> wrote:

> "Go Fig" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, PTRAVEL
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> "Geoff Miller" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > PTRAVEL > writes:
> >> >
> >> >> I guess you didn't read the thread. I've never seen any evidence
> >> >> that he actually existed.
> >> >
> >> > Oh, come on; that's a cop-out.
> >>
> >> No, it's not. There's no historical evidence of Jesus, other than what's
> >> mentioned in the Bible.
> >
> > Josephus makes testimony to his existence.
>
> A quick yahoo search suggests that this contention is, at minimum,
> controversial.

Your wrong. The only thing that is in contention is to the extent to
which the Church has embellished his writings in "Antiquities"

For example, in successive versions over 100s of years recalled by the
Church, they would add things like 'if you could call him a man'

However, Josephus clearly identifies Jesus.

It is Josephus that provides an eyewitness written account to the fall
of the Jewish temple.

jay
Fri Dec 30, 2005




> In either event, I'll simply quote what myself:
>
> "Okay, let me put it another way. Why should I even care? Okay, you win --
> he existed. There is all sorts of proof -- photographs of him in his high
> school year book, laundry receipts, credit card applications.
>
> So what?"
>
> From what I understand, there is historical proof of the existence of
> Mohammad. Is that supposed to make me suddenly accept Islaam?
>
>
> >
> > jay
> > Fri Dec 30, 2005
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> > The same could be said of *any* figure
> >> > who lived before modern times, and yet, there's practically universal
> >> > consensus that any number of historical figures actually existed des-
> >> > pite their being no direct evidence of it.
> >>
> >> Such as?
> >>
> >> > What evidence do you have
> >> > that, say, Christopher Columbus actually existed?
> >>
> >> Lots of contemporary documentation, as I recall.
> >>
> >> > It's not as though
> >> > he left anything tangible behind, like paintings with his name signed
> >> > to them.
> >>
> >> Did you learn your history from a comic book?
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> To me, and to my non-Christian friends, he's a myth -- no different
> >> >> than Gilgamesh.
> >> >
> >> > It seems to me that your being non-Christian is orthogonal to the
> >> > matter of whether there's any evidence of Jesus's existence.
> >>
> >> Okay, let me put it another way. Why should I even care? Okay, you
> >> win --
> >> he existed. There is all sorts of proof -- photographs of him in his
> >> high
> >> school year book, laundry receipts, credit card applications.
> >>
> >> So what?
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> If, on the other hand, he did exist, he was an Essene -- a member
> >> >> of a hermitic cult that was about as far from main stream Judaism
> >> >> as Shintoism is today.
> >> >
> >> > They don't have to have been in, or close to, the Jewish mainstream
> >> > in order to be Jewish.
> >>
> >> 1. Says you. Sorry, but you are about the last person I would look to
> >> for
> >> halachal rulings.
> >>
> >> 2. Why should I even care? Okay, you win -- he was Jewish. You've got
> >> a
> >> letter from his rabbi, you've seen his bar mitzvah photographs, you were
> >> invited to the seder.
> >>
> >> So what?
> >>
> >>
> >> > The mainstream isn't the whole.
> >> >
> >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes
> >>
> >> You're quoting wikipedia? You've got to be kidding.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > "Ancient Essene communications protocols routed around obscenity
> >> > vulgarity pornography. Content? Absolute yes! Delete! Delete! OK!
> >> > Do not drink newsgroup" -- Blair Haworth
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Suggesting that, as a Jew, I should "celebrate" the birth of someone
> >> >> who my religion regards as a false prophet and counterfeit Messiah,
> >> >> in whose name unspeakable things have been done to my ancestors for
> >> >> 2,000 years, and whose adherents (at least some) seem intent on
> >> >> hijacking the country which I claim as my own (and for which my
> >> >> father fought and was wounded) so that they can install a Christian
> >> >> theocracy is, frankly, extremely offensive.
> >> >
> >> > Do you honestly believe that Bush and company would like to install a
> >> > Christian theocracy?
> >>
> >> Yes.
> >>
> >> > If so, that undermines your credibility pretty
> >> > severely.
> >> > Yes, the man is a Christian. So what?
> >>
> >> All of our presidents have been Christians of one form or another, and
> >> there
> >> is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's not belief in Jesus Christ
> >> that
> >> I'm criticizing, but being an adherent to a minority experssion of
> >> Christianity that believes that their understanding of God trumps the
> >> Constitution, and that this should be a Christian nation (albeit only
> >> their
> >> version of Christianity).
> >>
> >>
> >> > Why do liberals,
> >> > particularly liberal Jews (like there's any other kind) feel so
> >> > threatened by Christianity?
> >>
> >> I'm not a liberal.
> >>
> >> Notwithstanding, have you read any history? Or, perhaps, even this
> >> thread?
> >>
> >> My short list of Bush/Christian Fundamentalist actions which I find
> >> threatening:
> >>
> >> 1. Banning funding of new-line stem cell research.
> >> 2. Funding of the "Support Marriage" initiative to the tune of $1
> >> billion.
> >> 3. Establishment of the Department of Faith-Based Initiatives, with
> >> federal
> >> tax dollars going to religious organizations with little or no oversight.
> >> 4. Nominating an unqualified lawyer to be a Supreme Court justice solely
> >> on
> >> the basis of "religousness" that would ensure over-turning Roe v. Wade.
> >> 5. Eliminating U.S. funding of international health initiatives that
> >> included abortion.
> >> 6. Supporting a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage.
> >> 7. Supporting the teaching of creationism in public schools.
> >> 8. Funding prostelytization by evangelical Christian groups, as long as
> >> their religious message includes "abstinence education."
> >>
> >> And my personal favorite -- when Bush was governor of Texas:
> >>
> >> 9. Proclaiming "Jesus Christ Day" in Texas.
> >>
> >>
> >> > Booogaboogabooga!
> >>
> >> Ah, the sound of the Constitution washing down the drain.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> I do not, however, share your beliefs, I don't want to share your
> >> >> beliefs, and I'd be very happy if you'd accord me the same courtesy
> >> >> that I accord you and not insist that I participate in your beliefs
> >> >> to the extent of "celebrating" the birth of someone I regard as
> >> >> mythical and superfluous to my own search for meaning and purpose.
> >> >
> >> > Except to the extremely devout, Christmas is a secular holiday and
> >> > has been for ages.
> >>
> >> Who cares? Whatever Christmas is, it isn't a Jewish holiday (or a
> >> Budhist
> >> one or Shinto one or Hindu one, etc.)
> >>
> >> > Get over youself.
> >>
> >> You get over yourself. Who are you to tell me what I should believe, and
> >> what holidays I should observe? How incredibly arrogant. And how
> >> incredibly antisemitic.
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>