I don't like this wine

My 2002 156 2.0jts...

Don't know if the TSparks do this, or if anyone else has even noticed this,
but I can 'hear' when the oil is low: I get a whining noise just as the oil
level falls below the dipstick - it usually needs a pint or so and the whine
goes away. It has always done this from new, so don't think this is a
problem - I only mention it because the real problem I want help with sounds
very similar...

Last couple of weeks it has developed a very similar whine, but the oil is
bang on the middle between the 2 dots on the dipstick. It sounds like a
whiney alternator, but I can't quite tell where the noise is coming from.
I'm no mechanic, but I think I can see the alternator in front of the engine
at the driver's side (belt end). The noise is either coming from a straight
forward failing alternator problem or it might be coming from the top of the
engine, which is valve territory where I presume whining is very bad. Any
comments, suggestions, things to check, ways to diagnose, horror stories
etc...

Cheers,
GT

GT wrote:
> My 2002 156 2.0jts...
>
> Don't know if the TSparks do this, or if anyone else has even noticed this,
> but I can 'hear' when the oil is low: I get a whining noise just as the oil
> level falls below the dipstick - it usually needs a pint or so and the whine
> goes away. It has always done this from new, so don't think this is a
> problem - I only mention it because the real problem I want help with sounds
> very similar...
>

I always felt that I could hear a difference in the engine when oil was
dropping low.

> Last couple of weeks it has developed a very similar whine, but the oil is
> bang on the middle between the 2 dots on the dipstick. It sounds like a
> whiney alternator, but I can't quite tell where the noise is coming from.
> I'm no mechanic, but I think I can see the alternator in front of the engine
> at the driver's side (belt end). The noise is either coming from a straight
> forward failing alternator problem or it might be coming from the top of the
> engine, which is valve territory where I presume whining is very bad. Any
> comments, suggestions, things to check, ways to diagnose, horror stories
> etc...

My money would be on the alternator or something similar. I've never
heard of cams (which it would have to be, valves don't rotate after all)
whining.

Could be the belt, or, perhaps the AC compressor, which I had fail last
year. That made some interesting noises.

Final note. When was your cambelt / idlers / water pump changed last?




--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

"Catman" > wrote in message
...
> GT wrote:
>> My 2002 156 2.0jts...
>>
>> Don't know if the TSparks do this, or if anyone else has even noticed
>> this, but I can 'hear' when the oil is low: I get a whining noise just as
>> the oil level falls below the dipstick - it usually needs a pint or so
>> and the whine goes away. It has always done this from new, so don't think
>> this is a problem - I only mention it because the real problem I want
>> help with sounds very similar...
>>
>
> I always felt that I could hear a difference in the engine when oil was
> dropping low.
>
>> Last couple of weeks it has developed a very similar whine, but the oil
>> is bang on the middle between the 2 dots on the dipstick. It sounds like
>> a whiney alternator, but I can't quite tell where the noise is coming
>> from. I'm no mechanic, but I think I can see the alternator in front of
>> the engine at the driver's side (belt end). The noise is either coming
>> from a straight forward failing alternator problem or it might be coming
>> from the top of the engine, which is valve territory where I presume
>> whining is very bad. Any comments, suggestions, things to check, ways to
>> diagnose, horror stories etc...
>
> My money would be on the alternator or something similar. I've never heard
> of cams (which it would have to be, valves don't rotate after all)
> whining.

I used to have a Renault 21 with a permanently whiney alternator - it was
normal for that engine, but its a new noise on the alfa. It certainly sounds
like an alternator, but I guess one failing metal spinning component
probably makes a similar noise to another!

> Could be the belt, or, perhaps the AC compressor, which I had fail last
> year. That made some interesting noises.

The noise varies pitch with revs and engaging gear makes no difference, so
its something around the cambelt mechanism. Noise is worst/most noticable
around 2000. Perhaps the engine noise starts to drown out the whine above
these revs. Would the aircon compressor vary with engine revs? I think my
aircon is turned off at the mo tho, so its probably not that.

> Final note. When was your cambelt / idlers / water pump changed last?

That is the fault that worries me (and most others!) - I can't remember. I
know the car is 8 years old and I've had it since new. I'll have to look up
my records, but I know the belt and tensioners were definitely replaced at
least once, maybe twice, but they are definitely at least 2 years old and
might be 3-4 years old now. Without looking up my records, I think they are
due to be replaced this October. Is it normal to get 'warning' noises before
a cambelt fails?

GT wrote:
> "Catman" > wrote in message
> ...
>> GT wrote:
>>> My 2002 156 2.0jts...
>>>
>>> Don't know if the TSparks do this, or if anyone else has even noticed
>>> this, but I can 'hear' when the oil is low: I get a whining noise just as
>>> the oil level falls below the dipstick - it usually needs a pint or so
>>> and the whine goes away. It has always done this from new, so don't think
>>> this is a problem - I only mention it because the real problem I want
>>> help with sounds very similar...
>>>
>> I always felt that I could hear a difference in the engine when oil was
>> dropping low.
>>
>>> Last couple of weeks it has developed a very similar whine, but the oil
>>> is bang on the middle between the 2 dots on the dipstick. It sounds like
>>> a whiney alternator, but I can't quite tell where the noise is coming
>>> from. I'm no mechanic, but I think I can see the alternator in front of
>>> the engine at the driver's side (belt end). The noise is either coming
>>> from a straight forward failing alternator problem or it might be coming
>>> from the top of the engine, which is valve territory where I presume
>>> whining is very bad. Any comments, suggestions, things to check, ways to
>>> diagnose, horror stories etc...
>> My money would be on the alternator or something similar. I've never heard
>> of cams (which it would have to be, valves don't rotate after all)
>> whining.
>
> I used to have a Renault 21 with a permanently whiney alternator - it was
> normal for that engine, but its a new noise on the alfa. It certainly sounds
> like an alternator, but I guess one failing metal spinning component
> probably makes a similar noise to another!
>
>> Could be the belt, or, perhaps the AC compressor, which I had fail last
>> year. That made some interesting noises.
>
> The noise varies pitch with revs and engaging gear makes no difference, so
> its something around the cambelt mechanism.

Are you sure you're not confusing your cambelt (which you can't see)
with you auxillary drive belt (what used to be called a fan belt) which
you can.

Both will rotate in direct proportion to engine revs.

Cambelt drives (IIRC) between crank shaft, idlers, water pump. All of
which are nicely hidden away and not know for making whining noises
unless something is going imminently bang.

'Fan' belt(s? can't recall without checking) drives alternator and
aircon compresor.

>Noise is worst/most noticable
> around 2000. Perhaps the engine noise starts to drown out the whine above
> these revs. Would the aircon compressor vary with engine revs?

Yes, as would the alternator
>I think my
> aircon is turned off at the mo tho, so its probably not that.\

Won't make any difference. It spins all the time, and is turned on and
off my a magnetic clutch IYSWIM.

>
>> Final note. When was your cambelt / idlers / water pump changed last?
>
> That is the fault that worries me (and most others!) - I can't remember. I
> know the car is 8 years old and I've had it since new. I'll have to look up
> my records, but I know the belt and tensioners were definitely replaced at
> least once, maybe twice, but they are definitely at least 2 years old and
> might be 3-4 years old now. Without looking up my records, I think they are
> due to be replaced this October. Is it normal to get 'warning' noises before
> a cambelt fails?


No, not at all. *Chains* yes, although they very rarely fail.

I'm reasonably sure it's not your cambelt. Really.


--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

"Catman" > wrote in message
...
> GT wrote:
>> "Catman" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> GT wrote:
>>>> My 2002 156 2.0jts...
>>>>
>>>> Don't know if the TSparks do this, or if anyone else has even noticed
>>>> this, but I can 'hear' when the oil is low: I get a whining noise just
>>>> as the oil level falls below the dipstick - it usually needs a pint or
>>>> so and the whine goes away. It has always done this from new, so don't
>>>> think this is a problem - I only mention it because the real problem I
>>>> want help with sounds very similar...
>>>>
>>> I always felt that I could hear a difference in the engine when oil was
>>> dropping low.
>>>
>>>> Last couple of weeks it has developed a very similar whine, but the oil
>>>> is bang on the middle between the 2 dots on the dipstick. It sounds
>>>> like a whiney alternator, but I can't quite tell where the noise is
>>>> coming from. I'm no mechanic, but I think I can see the alternator in
>>>> front of the engine at the driver's side (belt end). The noise is
>>>> either coming from a straight forward failing alternator problem or it
>>>> might be coming from the top of the engine, which is valve territory
>>>> where I presume whining is very bad. Any comments, suggestions, things
>>>> to check, ways to diagnose, horror stories etc...
>>> My money would be on the alternator or something similar. I've never
>>> heard of cams (which it would have to be, valves don't rotate after all)
>>> whining.
>>
>> I used to have a Renault 21 with a permanently whiney alternator - it was
>> normal for that engine, but its a new noise on the alfa. It certainly
>> sounds like an alternator, but I guess one failing metal spinning
>> component probably makes a similar noise to another!
>>
>>> Could be the belt, or, perhaps the AC compressor, which I had fail last
>>> year. That made some interesting noises.
>>
>> The noise varies pitch with revs and engaging gear makes no difference,
>> so its something around the cambelt mechanism.
>
> Are you sure you're not confusing your cambelt (which you can't see) with
> you auxillary drive belt (what used to be called a fan belt) which you
> can.
>
> Both will rotate in direct proportion to engine revs.
>
> Cambelt drives (IIRC) between crank shaft, idlers, water pump. All of
> which are nicely hidden away and not know for making whining noises unless
> something is going imminently bang.
>
> 'Fan' belt(s? can't recall without checking) drives alternator and aircon
> compresor.
>
>>Noise is worst/most noticable around 2000. Perhaps the engine noise starts
>>to drown out the whine above these revs. Would the aircon compressor vary
>>with engine revs?
>
> Yes, as would the alternator
>>I think my aircon is turned off at the mo tho, so its probably not that.\
>
> Won't make any difference. It spins all the time, and is turned on and off
> my a magnetic clutch IYSWIM.
>
>>
>>> Final note. When was your cambelt / idlers / water pump changed last?
>>
>> That is the fault that worries me (and most others!) - I can't remember.
>> I know the car is 8 years old and I've had it since new. I'll have to
>> look up my records, but I know the belt and tensioners were definitely
>> replaced at least once, maybe twice, but they are definitely at least 2
>> years old and might be 3-4 years old now. Without looking up my records,
>> I think they are due to be replaced this October. Is it normal to get
>> 'warning' noises before a cambelt fails?
>
>
> No, not at all. *Chains* yes, although they very rarely fail.
>
> I'm reasonably sure it's not your cambelt. Really.
>
Waterpump ?

And I'm presuming the actual subject is `whine', not the delicious fluid of
red, white or rose varieties?

regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield, South Africa

"Malcolm Osborne" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Catman" > wrote in message
> ...
>> GT wrote:
>>> "Catman" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> GT wrote:
>>>>> My 2002 156 2.0jts...
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't know if the TSparks do this, or if anyone else has even noticed
>>>>> this, but I can 'hear' when the oil is low: I get a whining noise just
>>>>> as the oil level falls below the dipstick - it usually needs a pint or
>>>>> so and the whine goes away. It has always done this from new, so don't
>>>>> think this is a problem - I only mention it because the real problem I
>>>>> want help with sounds very similar...
>>>>>
>>>> I always felt that I could hear a difference in the engine when oil was
>>>> dropping low.
>>>>
>>>>> Last couple of weeks it has developed a very similar whine, but the
>>>>> oil is bang on the middle between the 2 dots on the dipstick. It
>>>>> sounds like a whiney alternator, but I can't quite tell where the
>>>>> noise is coming from. I'm no mechanic, but I think I can see the
>>>>> alternator in front of the engine at the driver's side (belt end). The
>>>>> noise is either coming from a straight forward failing alternator
>>>>> problem or it might be coming from the top of the engine, which is
>>>>> valve territory where I presume whining is very bad. Any comments,
>>>>> suggestions, things to check, ways to diagnose, horror stories etc...
>>>> My money would be on the alternator or something similar. I've never
>>>> heard of cams (which it would have to be, valves don't rotate after
>>>> all) whining.
>>>
>>> I used to have a Renault 21 with a permanently whiney alternator - it
>>> was normal for that engine, but its a new noise on the alfa. It
>>> certainly sounds like an alternator, but I guess one failing metal
>>> spinning component probably makes a similar noise to another!
>>>
>>>> Could be the belt, or, perhaps the AC compressor, which I had fail last
>>>> year. That made some interesting noises.
>>>
>>> The noise varies pitch with revs and engaging gear makes no difference,
>>> so its something around the cambelt mechanism.
>>
>> Are you sure you're not confusing your cambelt (which you can't see) with
>> you auxillary drive belt (what used to be called a fan belt) which you
>> can.
>>
>> Both will rotate in direct proportion to engine revs.
>>
>> Cambelt drives (IIRC) between crank shaft, idlers, water pump. All of
>> which are nicely hidden away and not know for making whining noises
>> unless something is going imminently bang.
>>
>> 'Fan' belt(s? can't recall without checking) drives alternator and aircon
>> compresor.
>>
>>>Noise is worst/most noticable around 2000. Perhaps the engine noise
>>>starts to drown out the whine above these revs. Would the aircon
>>>compressor vary with engine revs?
>>
>> Yes, as would the alternator
>>>I think my aircon is turned off at the mo tho, so its probably not that.\
>>
>> Won't make any difference. It spins all the time, and is turned on and
>> off my a magnetic clutch IYSWIM.
>>
>>>
>>>> Final note. When was your cambelt / idlers / water pump changed last?
>>>
>>> That is the fault that worries me (and most others!) - I can't remember.
>>> I know the car is 8 years old and I've had it since new. I'll have to
>>> look up my records, but I know the belt and tensioners were definitely
>>> replaced at least once, maybe twice, but they are definitely at least 2
>>> years old and might be 3-4 years old now. Without looking up my records,
>>> I think they are due to be replaced this October. Is it normal to get
>>> 'warning' noises before a cambelt fails?
>>
>>
>> No, not at all. *Chains* yes, although they very rarely fail.
>>
>> I'm reasonably sure it's not your cambelt. Really.
>>
> Waterpump ?
>
> And I'm presuming the actual subject is `whine', not the delicious fluid
> of
> red, white or rose varieties?

The subject part was just a little joke!

"Catman" > wrote in message
...
> GT wrote:
>> "Catman" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> GT wrote:
>>>> My 2002 156 2.0jts...
>>>>
>>>> Last couple of weeks it has developed a very similar whine, but the oil
>>>> is bang on the middle between the 2 dots on the dipstick. It sounds
>>>> like a whiney alternator, but I can't quite tell where the noise is
>>>> coming from. I'm no mechanic, but I think I can see the alternator in
>>>> front of the engine at the driver's side (belt end). The noise is
>>>> either coming from a straight forward failing alternator problem or it
>>>> might be coming from the top of the engine, which is valve territory
>>>> where I presume whining is very bad. Any comments, suggestions, things
>>>> to check, ways to diagnose, horror stories etc...
>>> My money would be on the alternator or something similar. I've never
>>> heard of cams (which it would have to be, valves don't rotate after all)
>>> whining.
>>
>>> Could be the belt, or, perhaps the AC compressor, which I had fail last
>>> year. That made some interesting noises.
>>
>> The noise varies pitch with revs and engaging gear makes no difference,
>> so its something around the cambelt mechanism.
>
> Are you sure you're not confusing your cambelt (which you can't see) with
> you auxillary drive belt (what used to be called a fan belt) which you
> can.

Yes I am confusing my belts. I did wonder why a cambelt would be out in the
open for dirt and grime to potentially disturb! I'm a software engineer, not
a mechanic, so this is not my area at all!

Had another listen this morning and I'm about 70% sure its the alternator,
but not entirely convinced as there are lots of bits turning in there and it
might be coming from something lower and behind the engine - AC or pumps
perhaps. I'm going to cross my fingers for alternator because its accessible
and wouldn't be a big job to replace. (I hope).

>>> Final note. When was your cambelt / idlers / water pump changed last?
> I'm reasonably sure it's not your cambelt. Really.

That is reassuring. I checked my records and cambelt was changed in Oct 2007
at 56k miles. Car is now on 87k miles. So cambelt is 3.5 years old and has
done 31k miles. Its due to be changed in Oct this year anyway, so I'll leave
it at that.

There are a few voices in here that I trust and you are one of them. Thanks
for that. Failed alternators I can handle, but an imploded engine I can't!!

OK next question - I have obviously read about this online and there are
many reports of the alternator being a nasty job to replace - have to remove
exhausts, drivers wheel, side panels etc, but it looks like it sits in front
of the engine with more access than the headlight bulbs, so whats the big
deal? Perhaps I'm not looking at the alternator, there are no
distinguishable markings on it other than a sticker with rotation direction
info, but it looks like an alternator to me!

According to another group I read, it is part number 46782219 - a 90Amp
alternator. Seems to be the same part as in the Punto mark 2! Found one on
ebay for £50.

"GT" > wrote in message
...
> "Catman" > wrote in message
> ...
>> GT wrote:
>>> "Catman" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> GT wrote:
>>>>> My 2002 156 2.0jts...
>>>>>
>>>>> Last couple of weeks it has developed a very similar whine, but the
>>>>> oil is bang on the middle between the 2 dots on the dipstick. It
>>>>> sounds like a whiney alternator, but I can't quite tell where the
>>>>> noise is coming from. I'm no mechanic, but I think I can see the
>>>>> alternator in front of the engine at the driver's side (belt end). The
>>>>> noise is either coming from a straight forward failing alternator
>>>>> problem or it might be coming from the top of the engine, which is
>>>>> valve territory where I presume whining is very bad. Any comments,
>>>>> suggestions, things to check, ways to diagnose, horror stories etc...
>>>>
>>>> My money would be on the alternator or something similar. I've never
>>>> heard of cams (which it would have to be, valves don't rotate after
>>>> all) whining.
>>>
>>>> Could be the belt, or, perhaps the AC compressor, which I had fail last
>>>> year. That made some interesting noises.
>
> Had another listen this morning and I'm about 70% sure its the alternator,
> but not entirely convinced as there are lots of bits turning in there and
> it might be coming from something lower and behind the engine - AC or
> pumps perhaps. I'm going to cross my fingers for alternator because its
> accessible and wouldn't be a big job to replace. (I hope).

Daylight makes such a difference - just been out during a break and that's
not the alternator at the front, its the water pump - pipes go in, pipes
come out (thought they were thick, protected wires in the dark). Sticker
also mentions refrigerant type. Alternators don't have pipes and
refridgerant - even I don't need any more clues than that!!

On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:40:05 +0000, Catman
> wrote:

>GT wrote:
>> "Catman" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> GT wrote:
>>>> My 2002 156 2.0jts...

>>I think my
>> aircon is turned off at the mo tho, so its probably not that.\
>
>Won't make any difference. It spins all the time, and is turned on and
>off my a magnetic clutch IYSWIM.

One of many reasons I ditched my old 156 was that the A/C pump
bearings were on the way out. When the compressor was turned on with
the button, there was a very noticeable grumble from the compressor.
When off, nothing. I guess it was bearings on the other side from the
clutch or that the clutch bearings needed loading to reveal their
wear. It was an LF grumble not a whine though.

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather (sold)
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email must have the word 'Alfa' in the
subject line to get through auto-filtering)

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:02:19 -0000, "GT"
> wrote:

>Had another listen this morning and I'm about 70% sure its the alternator,
>but not entirely convinced as there are lots of bits turning in there and it
>might be coming from something lower and behind the engine - AC or pumps
>perhaps. I'm going to cross my fingers for alternator

...or..get something like a solid metal rod (I've used a half inch
socket driver), put one end firmly on the suspect item and jam the
other end in your ear. Think redneck stethoscope. Although differences
can be slight, you should be able to detect what is causing the noise.

> because its accessible
>and wouldn't be a big job to replace. (I hope).

Steady..it's an Alfa.

>There are a few voices in here that I trust and you are one of them.

Creep!

>According to another group I read, it is part number 46782219 - a 90Amp
>alternator. Seems to be the same part as in the Punto mark 2!

Next you'll be saying you didn't know that your pride and joy is
actually a warmed Fiat Tipo in drag. Fiat share many parts. I once got
a part for my 156 and it came in a bag marked "Fiat Alfa Romeo
Maserati Ferrari" IIRC. I suspect the Ferrari owner never gets to see
that bag somehow!!

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather (sold)
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email must have the word 'Alfa' in the
subject line to get through auto-filtering)