|
| If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|||||||
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
| Ads |
|
#22
July 17th 13, 05:33 PM
posted to rec.autos.tech
|
|||
|
|||
Do it yourself alignment
I'll grant that you might be able to tell whether a spring is peened or not by inspection, assuming that it is not too badly rusted, but how are you determining what coating is used and whether or not the spring is heat treated?
|
|
#23
July 17th 13, 08:45 PM
posted to rec.autos.tech
|
|||
|
|||
|
Do it yourself alignment
On 2013-07-17, jim beam > wrote:
> On 07/17/2013 08:34 AM, Brent wrote: >> On 2013-07-17, jim beam > wrote: >>> On 07/16/2013 09:37 PM, Brent wrote: >>>> On 2013-07-17, jim beam > wrote: >>>>> On 07/16/2013 07:06 PM, Brent wrote: >>>>>> On 2013-07-17, jim beam > wrote: >>>>>>> On 07/14/2013 02:42 PM, bob wrote: >>>>>>>> On 7/13/2013 10:23 AM, Nate Nagel wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 07/13/2013 10:15 AM, bob wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 7/12/2013 5:45 PM, Brent wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 2013-07-12, Nate Nagel > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 07/12/2013 04:26 PM, Brent wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2013-07-12, > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, July 12, 2013 10:17:11 AM UTC-5, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can I purchase a caster/camber guage and do my own alignment at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> home? I have a 1990 mustang, 2007 escape and a 2013 silverado. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right now I am mainly interested in the 1990 mustang as I have to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> replace the struts and steering rack but it would be nice to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to do all of them at home whenever tires have to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> replaced. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I appreciate it! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I recently replaced the tires and the inside edge of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> driver's side front tire was wore down, in one area I could see the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> steel belt. I just figured the castor or camber needed adjusted. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Likely either a ball joint or tie-rod end is worn out. Check. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Well, if he's replacing the steering rack, I'd say it would be false >>>>>>>>>>>> economy not to just put two new tie rod ends on at the same time... >>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>> that's just me. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> But yes, might as well make sure the ball joints are good as well. >>>>>>>>>>>> Also >>>>>>>>>>>> LCA bushings, not sure how common it is for them to go bad on that >>>>>>>>>>>> chassis though. Fortunately being a popular chassis a full bushing >>>>>>>>>>>> kit, >>>>>>>>>>>> if you need it, is probably not grossly expensive. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I replaced the lower control arms on my '97 at ~190K miles. Ball joints >>>>>>>>>>> were still good, bushings had decayed however. Thanks Chicago >>>>>>>>>>> weather... >>>>>>>>>>> Given how inexpensively I was able to buy updated OEM cobra LCA >>>>>>>>>>> assemblies at the time it didn't make sense to screw around replacing >>>>>>>>>>> bushings. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On FOrds, its NOT uncommon to have the springs break off in chunks on >>>>>>>>>> the struts. This will cause camber issues and inner tire wear. If the >>>>>>>>>> car has struts, look closely at the top and bottom of the spring for >>>>>>>>>> any jagged or irregular edges. If you see any (along with much rust >>>>>>>>>> on the springs) its quick strut time or new spring time. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> bob >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'd be inclined to buy new springs from the dealership, because >>>>>>>>> generally (not always) multiple different spring options for a given >>>>>>>>> vehicle/option combination. However when you buy quick struts you >>>>>>>>> generally get "six or V-8" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Or this could be the perfect excuse to get that set of sport springs you >>>>>>>>> wanted anyway (which is probably cheaper than buying anything from a >>>>>>>>> dealership) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> BTW the effect above I have seen happen on VWs as well, although usually >>>>>>>>> when they hit the 20+ year mark and also several hundreds of thousands >>>>>>>>> of miles. You don't think of big beefy things like coil springs having >>>>>>>>> a finite lifespan but add in some road salt and less than perfect >>>>>>>>> coatings... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nate >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Its strange how manufacturer think. Ford had a limited recall on >>>>>>>> breaking springs on some years of taurus that would puncture tires >>>>>>>> and cause a very real issue of loss of control and accident. >>>>>>>> There solution? Not to replace the spring, but put a shroud >>>>>>>> around it so it would supposedly not puncture the tire >>>>>>>> Go figure... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> no, it's entirely consistent with frod's 'cut every corner and screw the >>>>>>> public" philosophy. recall's more expensive then compensation to the >>>>>>> families of the deceased and political squeeze to shut up the nhtsa? >>>>>>> don't do a recall! >>>>>> >>>>>> Various makes have had issues with coil springs rusting and/or breaking, >>>>>> but don't let that get in the way of your brand rants. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> broken springs can be effectively eliminated for the cost of just a few >>>>> cents more. and broken springs can kill people. but frod simply won't >>>>> spend the money, they just "assess the risk" and balance the cost of >>>>> killing people vs. the cost of business. >>>>> >>>>> you can call that a "rant" if you want, but it's still a fact, and >>>>> people will continue to die as a result of frod's management culture. >>>>> it'll never change unless someone sufficiently important gets killed and >>>>> their family know enough to know when they're having smoke blown up >>>>> their ass about it. >>>> >>>> You're simply irrational, illinformed, and have not a freaking clue what >>>> Ford's or any other manufacturer's internal culture is because you >>>> haven't worked at any of them. >>>> >>>> Here's a quick search result: >>>> http://www.tacomahq.com/508/toyota-t...springs-break/ >>>> >>> >>> au contraire. as with certain others, you get distracted by the way i >>> say stuff, not what i'm actually saying. >> >> No, it's clear you're very biased and irrational, it's not just your >> presentation. >> >>> when i say that frod could make non-failing springs for just a few more >>> cents, that's simply fact. springs fatigue because of surface defects >>> and to a lesser extent, residual stress. you can prevent surface >>> defects occurring if you make them properly and coat them properly. you >>> can also mitigate surface defects with shot peening. you can mitigate >>> residual stress with heat treatment. if you study materials and >>> manufacturing, and you analyze a frod spring, you can see that they >>> don't heat treat, they don't shot peen, and they don't even coat >>> properly. all because it saves them a few cents per vehicle. >> >> Now show me Ford's engineering drawings you have. > i simply cannot comprehend how you think a drawing can possibly, in any > way, contradict the metallography of service failures. Show me the reports. Show me the prints. Show me real engineering materials that back up your claims that is meaningful. >> When did you work >> there? In what capacity? Oh wait, you have no drawings, no inside >> information of any value, > no, i just have service failure analysis to go on - sorry about that. Show me the reports then. Certainly you have them from Ford or someone? Show me the actual engineering reports on field failures you are using. Then I want to see where things went wrong, so I'll need the engineering drawings for the parts in question. >> you have just your own irrational biases, >> assumptions, and bull****. You also don't live in road salt country > i don't now, but i used to! Apparently your memory has failed then. >> and >> repeatedly show you don't have a clue regarding what that does to cars. >> Living in a state where cars are recalled or TSB'd for suspension >> corrosion issues shows me that any make or model may have a part that >> doesn't quite hold up. > apparently you missed it when i referred to "coatings" above. > apparently you missed it when i pointed you towards fabrication > methodology above. I didn't miss it at all. You're blathering off terms to try to look like you know something. The fact remains that such issues are industry wide. Because the real world is different from some guy ranting about how things should be done. >> Here's your beloved Honda: >> http://www.thecarconnection.com/news...uspension-rust >> >>> as to the failure pattern, if frod had an isolated event, maybe it's one >>> individual line manager making a mistake. but when you have long term >>> consistent policies that permit known fatal failures like rollover, >>> cabin crush, ignition failure, springs, killer f150 crumple zones, lug >>> nuts, etc., etc., which are long term, consistent, persistent, >>> multi-vehicle, and multimodal, that is a management culture, plain and >>> simple. >> >> It's interesting how you only selectively notice product field failures, >> are prone to accepting manipulations of the mainstream media when it >> suits your own biases. What's worse is then you extrapolate further from >> your distorted, incomplete, and biased data set. One could construct the >> same sort of paragraph for any auto manufacturer if they wanted to... >> >> Flaming Hondas: >> http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...indow/2474023/ >> http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/hon...icle-1.1171954 >> http://www.torquenews.com/1081/honda...-fire-concerns >> >> Honda coil spring failu >> http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...a_odyssey.html >> >> Hondas rolling away: >> http://www.nbcnews.com/business/hond...call-1C7572324 >> >> Hondas braking on their own: >> http://www.digtriad.com/news/local/s...storyid=289545 (scroll >> down) >> >> Should I go on? > if you did metallography and understood fabrication technology, sure. > but if you don't have the understanding of service failures, you can't > differentiate between mistake and policy. On the contrary, I do all that and more and fully understand it. That's how I know you're bull****ting. How do you tell the difference between a mistake and a policy without working at said company? Where's the source of your inside information? Where's the engineering documentation to back up your accusation? > a spring failing as a > statistical anomaly, or because of physical damage that sets a fatigue > initiator, is not a concern. Those were recalls, not statistical anomalies. But somehow you devine that Honda recalls are "mistakes" and Ford recalls are due to deliberate policy decisions. How did you determine that? When did you work at these companies and in what capacity that allowed you to determine this? > a spring that is guaranteed to break > because of deliberate cost cutting, i.e. one that is not heat treated, > shot peened or properly coated, then that is. frod springs are not heat > treated, peened and just cheaply painted. if you think you can argue > against those facts, then you don't understand how you're completely out > of your depth. Show me the engineering drawings. Show me your report. Just don't blather out claims without supporting evidence. Especially when some of them contradict basic knowledge and what I've seen with my own two eyes and held in my hands. Hint: it's cheaper to heat treat the wire before forming it into a spring. That's probably where you went wrong with that one.
|
|
#24
July 17th 13, 09:01 PM
posted to rec.autos.tech
|
|||
|
|||
|
Do it yourself alignment
On 2013-07-17, N8N > wrote:
> I'll grant that you might be able to tell whether a spring is peened > or not by inspection, assuming that it is not too badly rusted, but > how are you determining what coating is used and whether or not the > spring is heat treated? There are ways to tell heat treatment. A surface hardness test would be enough for a 'yes' or 'no' probably. If a spring is broken examination of the break will give a good indication as well. However springs aren't heat treated as general practice for the purpose of this discussion. Wire is heat treated and springs are made from that wire. Heat treating springs wouldn't be cost effective. Because they are mostly air and get tangled up if tightly arranged. Also dimensional changes could be an issue. As to coatings, again there is some rough info that could be gathered. I wouldn't call the coating that was on my '97's springs to be 'cheap paint'. It didn't act like 'cheap paint', look like 'cheap paint' or perform like 'cheap paint'.
|
|
#25
July 18th 13, 04:44 AM
posted to rec.autos.tech
|
|||
|
|||
|
Do it yourself alignment
On 07/17/2013 09:33 AM, N8N wrote:
> I'll grant that you might be able to tell whether a spring is peened or not by inspection, assuming that it is not too badly rusted, but how are you determining what coating is used and whether or not the spring is heat treated? > you can't tell if it's peened just by inspection - and i didn't say you could. i said metallography - and if you do that, it's very easy. -- fact check required
|
|
#26
July 18th 13, 04:45 AM
posted to rec.autos.tech
|
|||
|
|||
|
Do it yourself alignment
On 07/17/2013 12:45 PM, Brent wrote:
> On 2013-07-17, jim beam > wrote: >> On 07/17/2013 08:34 AM, Brent wrote: >>> On 2013-07-17, jim beam > wrote: >>>> On 07/16/2013 09:37 PM, Brent wrote: >>>>> On 2013-07-17, jim beam > wrote: >>>>>> On 07/16/2013 07:06 PM, Brent wrote: >>>>>>> On 2013-07-17, jim beam > wrote: >>>>>>>> On 07/14/2013 02:42 PM, bob wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 7/13/2013 10:23 AM, Nate Nagel wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 07/13/2013 10:15 AM, bob wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 7/12/2013 5:45 PM, Brent wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2013-07-12, Nate Nagel > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 07/12/2013 04:26 PM, Brent wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2013-07-12, > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, July 12, 2013 10:17:11 AM UTC-5, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can I purchase a caster/camber guage and do my own alignment at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> home? I have a 1990 mustang, 2007 escape and a 2013 silverado. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right now I am mainly interested in the 1990 mustang as I have to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> replace the struts and steering rack but it would be nice to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to do all of them at home whenever tires have to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> replaced. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I appreciate it! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I recently replaced the tires and the inside edge of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> driver's side front tire was wore down, in one area I could see the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steel belt. I just figured the castor or camber needed adjusted. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Likely either a ball joint or tie-rod end is worn out. Check. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, if he's replacing the steering rack, I'd say it would be false >>>>>>>>>>>>> economy not to just put two new tie rod ends on at the same time... >>>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just me. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> But yes, might as well make sure the ball joints are good as well. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Also >>>>>>>>>>>>> LCA bushings, not sure how common it is for them to go bad on that >>>>>>>>>>>>> chassis though. Fortunately being a popular chassis a full bushing >>>>>>>>>>>>> kit, >>>>>>>>>>>>> if you need it, is probably not grossly expensive. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I replaced the lower control arms on my '97 at ~190K miles. Ball joints >>>>>>>>>>>> were still good, bushings had decayed however. Thanks Chicago >>>>>>>>>>>> weather... >>>>>>>>>>>> Given how inexpensively I was able to buy updated OEM cobra LCA >>>>>>>>>>>> assemblies at the time it didn't make sense to screw around replacing >>>>>>>>>>>> bushings. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On FOrds, its NOT uncommon to have the springs break off in chunks on >>>>>>>>>>> the struts. This will cause camber issues and inner tire wear. If the >>>>>>>>>>> car has struts, look closely at the top and bottom of the spring for >>>>>>>>>>> any jagged or irregular edges. If you see any (along with much rust >>>>>>>>>>> on the springs) its quick strut time or new spring time. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> bob >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'd be inclined to buy new springs from the dealership, because >>>>>>>>>> generally (not always) multiple different spring options for a given >>>>>>>>>> vehicle/option combination. However when you buy quick struts you >>>>>>>>>> generally get "six or V-8" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Or this could be the perfect excuse to get that set of sport springs you >>>>>>>>>> wanted anyway (which is probably cheaper than buying anything from a >>>>>>>>>> dealership) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> BTW the effect above I have seen happen on VWs as well, although usually >>>>>>>>>> when they hit the 20+ year mark and also several hundreds of thousands >>>>>>>>>> of miles. You don't think of big beefy things like coil springs having >>>>>>>>>> a finite lifespan but add in some road salt and less than perfect >>>>>>>>>> coatings... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> nate >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Its strange how manufacturer think. Ford had a limited recall on >>>>>>>>> breaking springs on some years of taurus that would puncture tires >>>>>>>>> and cause a very real issue of loss of control and accident. >>>>>>>>> There solution? Not to replace the spring, but put a shroud >>>>>>>>> around it so it would supposedly not puncture the tire >>>>>>>>> Go figure... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> no, it's entirely consistent with frod's 'cut every corner and screw the >>>>>>>> public" philosophy. recall's more expensive then compensation to the >>>>>>>> families of the deceased and political squeeze to shut up the nhtsa? >>>>>>>> don't do a recall! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Various makes have had issues with coil springs rusting and/or breaking, >>>>>>> but don't let that get in the way of your brand rants. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> broken springs can be effectively eliminated for the cost of just a few >>>>>> cents more. and broken springs can kill people. but frod simply won't >>>>>> spend the money, they just "assess the risk" and balance the cost of >>>>>> killing people vs. the cost of business. >>>>>> >>>>>> you can call that a "rant" if you want, but it's still a fact, and >>>>>> people will continue to die as a result of frod's management culture. >>>>>> it'll never change unless someone sufficiently important gets killed and >>>>>> their family know enough to know when they're having smoke blown up >>>>>> their ass about it. >>>>> >>>>> You're simply irrational, illinformed, and have not a freaking clue what >>>>> Ford's or any other manufacturer's internal culture is because you >>>>> haven't worked at any of them. >>>>> >>>>> Here's a quick search result: >>>>> http://www.tacomahq.com/508/toyota-t...springs-break/ >>>>> >>>> >>>> au contraire. as with certain others, you get distracted by the way i >>>> say stuff, not what i'm actually saying. >>> >>> No, it's clear you're very biased and irrational, it's not just your >>> presentation. >>> >>>> when i say that frod could make non-failing springs for just a few more >>>> cents, that's simply fact. springs fatigue because of surface defects >>>> and to a lesser extent, residual stress. you can prevent surface >>>> defects occurring if you make them properly and coat them properly. you >>>> can also mitigate surface defects with shot peening. you can mitigate >>>> residual stress with heat treatment. if you study materials and >>>> manufacturing, and you analyze a frod spring, you can see that they >>>> don't heat treat, they don't shot peen, and they don't even coat >>>> properly. all because it saves them a few cents per vehicle. >>> >>> Now show me Ford's engineering drawings you have. > >> i simply cannot comprehend how you think a drawing can possibly, in any >> way, contradict the metallography of service failures. > > Show me the reports. Show me the prints. Show me real engineering > materials that back up your claims that is meaningful. that makes much sense as wanting to know the color of my underwear. it's completely irrelevant. what you actually want to see are the metallography results. > >>> When did you work >>> there? In what capacity? Oh wait, you have no drawings, no inside >>> information of any value, > >> no, i just have service failure analysis to go on - sorry about that. > > Show me the reports then. Certainly you have them from Ford or someone? > Show me the actual engineering reports on field failures you are using. > Then I want to see where things went wrong, so I'll need the engineering > drawings for the parts in question. > >>> you have just your own irrational biases, >>> assumptions, and bull****. You also don't live in road salt country > >> i don't now, but i used to! > > Apparently your memory has failed then. > >>> and >>> repeatedly show you don't have a clue regarding what that does to cars. >>> Living in a state where cars are recalled or TSB'd for suspension >>> corrosion issues shows me that any make or model may have a part that >>> doesn't quite hold up. > >> apparently you missed it when i referred to "coatings" above. >> apparently you missed it when i pointed you towards fabrication >> methodology above. > > I didn't miss it at all. You're blathering off terms to try to look like > you know something. The fact remains that such issues are industry wide. no they're not. different manufacturers have different quality standards. do the metallography - it's completely self-evident if you do. > Because the real world is different from some guy ranting about how > things should be done. > >>> Here's your beloved Honda: >>> http://www.thecarconnection.com/news...uspension-rust >>> >>>> as to the failure pattern, if frod had an isolated event, maybe it's one >>>> individual line manager making a mistake. but when you have long term >>>> consistent policies that permit known fatal failures like rollover, >>>> cabin crush, ignition failure, springs, killer f150 crumple zones, lug >>>> nuts, etc., etc., which are long term, consistent, persistent, >>>> multi-vehicle, and multimodal, that is a management culture, plain and >>>> simple. >>> >>> It's interesting how you only selectively notice product field failures, >>> are prone to accepting manipulations of the mainstream media when it >>> suits your own biases. What's worse is then you extrapolate further from >>> your distorted, incomplete, and biased data set. One could construct the >>> same sort of paragraph for any auto manufacturer if they wanted to... >>> >>> Flaming Hondas: >>> http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...indow/2474023/ >>> http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/hon...icle-1.1171954 >>> http://www.torquenews.com/1081/honda...-fire-concerns >>> >>> Honda coil spring failu >>> http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...a_odyssey.html >>> >>> Hondas rolling away: >>> http://www.nbcnews.com/business/hond...call-1C7572324 >>> >>> Hondas braking on their own: >>> http://www.digtriad.com/news/local/s...storyid=289545 (scroll >>> down) >>> >>> Should I go on? > >> if you did metallography and understood fabrication technology, sure. >> but if you don't have the understanding of service failures, you can't >> differentiate between mistake and policy. > > On the contrary, I do all that and more and fully understand it. That's > how I know you're bull****ting. you think i am because i'm saying stuff you don't understand. i can't /force/ you to understand, but what i'm telling you is fact nevertheless. > How do you tell the difference > between a mistake and a policy without working at said company? Where's > the source of your inside information? Where's the engineering > documentation to back up your accusation? get a microscope, polishing kit, etchant and look for yourself. you'll soon see the differences when you look at different manufacturers. > >> a spring failing as a >> statistical anomaly, or because of physical damage that sets a fatigue >> initiator, is not a concern. > > Those were recalls, not statistical anomalies. But somehow you devine > that Honda recalls are "mistakes" and Ford recalls are due to deliberate > policy decisions. How did you determine that? When did you work at these > companies and in what capacity that allowed you to determine this? because i study this stuff. i used to do this stuff, and two of my friends from uni went to work there. they were constantly being pressured my management] to bring design lives down to ensure failure. it's a very hard and high-tech discipline - determining the "bathtub curve". > >> a spring that is guaranteed to break >> because of deliberate cost cutting, i.e. one that is not heat treated, >> shot peened or properly coated, then that is. frod springs are not heat >> treated, peened and just cheaply painted. if you think you can argue >> against those facts, then you don't understand how you're completely out >> of your depth. > > Show me the engineering drawings. Show me your report. Just don't > blather out claims without supporting evidence. Especially when some of > them contradict basic knowledge and what I've seen with my own two eyes > and held in my hands. Hint: it's cheaper to heat treat the wire before > forming it into a spring. That's probably where you went wrong with that > one. you don't want drawings, you want metallography. example he <http://www.scielo.org.ve/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0255-69522008000100006&lng=pt&nrm=iso&tlng=pt> -- fact check required
|
|
#27
July 18th 13, 04:47 AM
posted to rec.autos.tech
|
|||
|
|||
|
Do it yourself alignment
On 07/17/2013 01:01 PM, Brent wrote:
> On 2013-07-17, N8N > wrote: >> I'll grant that you might be able to tell whether a spring is peened >> or not by inspection, assuming that it is not too badly rusted, but >> how are you determining what coating is used and whether or not the >> spring is heat treated? > > There are ways to tell heat treatment. A surface hardness test would be > enough for a 'yes' or 'no' probably. you shouldn't have any difference. spring steels are supposed to have very limited ductility - the failure point is nearly the same as the end of the hookes law region on the graph. > If a spring is broken examination > of the break will give a good indication as well. springs break from fatigue. you won't see any difference in the "beach mark" region, and in the brittle region, same again. unless there's a heat treatment problem causing excess grain growth. > However springs aren't > heat treated as general practice for the purpose of this discussion. frod don't heat threat - it saves money. > Wire is heat treated and springs are made from that wire. Heat treating > springs wouldn't be cost effective. but it's very effective at stress relief, and that's an essential operation. > Because they are mostly air and get > tangled up if tightly arranged. you'll need to re-state that - makes no sense as written. > Also dimensional changes could be an > issue. not if properly dimensioned in the first place. > > As to coatings, again there is some rough info that could be gathered. I > wouldn't call the coating that was on my '97's springs to be 'cheap > paint'. It didn't act like 'cheap paint', look like 'cheap paint' or > perform like 'cheap paint'. "cheap paint" is thin, porous, and permits rust. [that's easy enough to spot isn't it???!] quality coatings, like a good thick elastic epoxy, is not only rust proof, but helps considerably with stone damage. -- fact check required
|
|
#28
July 18th 13, 02:49 PM
posted to rec.autos.tech
|
|||
|
|||
|
Do it yourself alignment
On 2013-07-18, jim beam > wrote:
> On 07/17/2013 12:45 PM, Brent wrote: >> Show me the reports. Show me the prints. Show me real engineering >> materials that back up your claims that is meaningful. > > that makes much sense as wanting to know the color of my underwear. > it's completely irrelevant. what you actually want to see are the > metallography results. I asked for your report and the prints. Your claim is that it is that way by design and not error. Therefore you need to prove not only that the parts are the way you claim but that they meet specification. That requires two things, the analysis of the part and the specification of the part. >>> apparently you missed it when i referred to "coatings" above. >>> apparently you missed it when i pointed you towards fabrication >>> methodology above. >> >> I didn't miss it at all. You're blathering off terms to try to look like >> you know something. The fact remains that such issues are industry wide. > > no they're not. different manufacturers have different quality > standards. do the metallography - it's completely self-evident if you do. I don't have to do anything. You are making the claims. Now you've added quality. Guess what that means, you need to provide yet more documentation. Now you need to provide a report that covers a statistically valid number of parts to see the distribution, the specification of the part, the quality specification (usually referred to by print for the part). When you produce these things, which you should have before you start making these claims, I'll look at them and see if your claims have any merit. >>>> Should I go on? >>> if you did metallography and understood fabrication technology, sure. >>> but if you don't have the understanding of service failures, you can't >>> differentiate between mistake and policy. >> On the contrary, I do all that and more and fully understand it. That's >> how I know you're bull****ting. > you think i am because i'm saying stuff you don't understand. i can't > /force/ you to understand, but what i'm telling you is fact nevertheless. I fully understand it. That's the problem you have. I've had to verify vendors are making parts correctly, determine what competitors are doing, all that good stuff. I understand quite well. So, to prove your claims you need to provide the supporting documentation. Why is this so difficult for you? >> How do you tell the difference >> between a mistake and a policy without working at said company? Where's >> the source of your inside information? Where's the engineering >> documentation to back up your accusation? > get a microscope, polishing kit, etchant and look for yourself. you'll > soon see the differences when you look at different manufacturers. So in other words, you don't know. You're simply guessing and making accusations based on your personal biases and prejudgices again. >>> a spring failing as a >>> statistical anomaly, or because of physical damage that sets a fatigue >>> initiator, is not a concern. >> >> Those were recalls, not statistical anomalies. But somehow you devine >> that Honda recalls are "mistakes" and Ford recalls are due to deliberate >> policy decisions. How did you determine that? When did you work at these >> companies and in what capacity that allowed you to determine this? > because i study this stuff. i used to do this stuff, and two of my > friends from uni went to work there. they were constantly being > pressured my management] to bring design lives down to ensure failure. > it's a very hard and high-tech discipline - determining the "bathtub curve". You study it? How do you study it? I'd like to know how you determine internal company practices from the outside. So now it's the hearsay from the friends of some guy on usenet. Odds are you've misunderstood something. Anyway, share your report. Support your claims with data. Oh and since you mention a bathtub curve, the Japanese makes do it quite well IME. Whole car just works well up to a point and then it just falls apart. >>> a spring that is guaranteed to break >>> because of deliberate cost cutting, i.e. one that is not heat treated, >>> shot peened or properly coated, then that is. frod springs are not heat >>> treated, peened and just cheaply painted. if you think you can argue >>> against those facts, then you don't understand how you're completely out >>> of your depth. >> >> Show me the engineering drawings. Show me your report. Just don't >> blather out claims without supporting evidence. Especially when some of >> them contradict basic knowledge and what I've seen with my own two eyes >> and held in my hands. Hint: it's cheaper to heat treat the wire before >> forming it into a spring. That's probably where you went wrong with that >> one. > > you don't want drawings, you want metallography. You've made claims which require the actual print for the part. The one spring you cut and section could be from a bad lot, a cheating supplier, etc and so forth and so on. You made claims well beyond a single metallography report. You've made claims of part design, quality systems, etc and so on. None of which you've backed up. You even refuse to produce a metallography report on a single failed spring. > example he ><http://www.scielo.org.ve/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0255-69522008000100006&lng=pt&nrm=iso&tlng=pt> I've seen that sort of thing countless times. Now show me your similar report on Ford springs.
|
|
#29
July 18th 13, 03:20 PM
posted to rec.autos.tech
|
|||
|
|||
|
Do it yourself alignment
On 2013-07-18, jim beam > wrote:
> On 07/17/2013 01:01 PM, Brent wrote: >> On 2013-07-17, N8N > wrote: >>> I'll grant that you might be able to tell whether a spring is peened >>> or not by inspection, assuming that it is not too badly rusted, but >>> how are you determining what coating is used and whether or not the >>> spring is heat treated? >> >> There are ways to tell heat treatment. A surface hardness test would be >> enough for a 'yes' or 'no' probably. > > you shouldn't have any difference. spring steels are supposed to have > very limited ductility - the failure point is nearly the same as the end > of the hookes law region on the graph. > > >> If a spring is broken examination >> of the break will give a good indication as well. > springs break from fatigue. you won't see any difference in the "beach > mark" region, and in the brittle region, same again. unless there's a > heat treatment problem causing excess grain growth. Your claim is that the springs aren't heat treated at all. >> However springs aren't >> heat treated as general practice for the purpose of this discussion. > frod don't heat threat - it saves money. So claims the abusive, abrasive, anonymous usenet loudmouth of rec.autos.tech. Yet you don't back up this claim. >> Wire is heat treated and springs are made from that wire. Heat treating >> springs wouldn't be cost effective. > but it's very effective at stress relief, and that's an essential operation. Essential for some things, not for others. Another claim you don't back up. Anyway this is again another place where you need to tighten up on your terminology if you wish to be properly understood. Prior it appeared you were blathering about heat treatment to produce desired material properties rather than stress relieving. >> Because they are mostly air and get >> tangled up if tightly arranged. > you'll need to re-state that - makes no sense as written. Aren't you familiar with heat treating? It is far cheaper to throw parts in bin and heat treat them than it is to pay someone to carefully arrange them in fixtures, carriers, etc. Also volume is important when it comes to cost. Automotive springs carefully arranged take up a lot of space. It's things like this that show exactly what you are. >> Also dimensional changes could be an issue. > not if properly dimensioned in the first place. "properly dimensioned" LOL. You've clearly never had to balance part design and manufacturing processes. Properly dimensioned for what? The design or the heat treatment process? >> As to coatings, again there is some rough info that could be gathered. I >> wouldn't call the coating that was on my '97's springs to be 'cheap >> paint'. It didn't act like 'cheap paint', look like 'cheap paint' or >> perform like 'cheap paint'. > "cheap paint" is thin, porous, and permits rust. [that's easy enough to > spot isn't it???!] quality coatings, like a good thick elastic epoxy, > is not only rust proof, but helps considerably with stone damage. What I saw was not thin, was not porous, and originally fairly elastic. It eventually failed because it became brittle after a dozen years exposed to chicago's environment. Now you could claim this to be unacceptable and that's your opinion and that's fine. However what it was exposed to likely exceeds any manufacturer's requirements.
|
|
#30
July 18th 13, 03:40 PM
posted to rec.autos.tech
|
|||
|
|||
|
Do it yourself alignment
On 07/18/2013 06:49 AM, Brent wrote:
<snip to the point> >> >example he >> ><http://www.scielo.org.ve/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0255-69522008000100006&lng=pt&nrm=iso&tlng=pt> > I've seen that sort of thing countless times. sorry, but apparently that isn't true. because if it were, you'd have learned and have been able to use that knowledge when assessing quality for yourself. and you'd understand why what you're asking for is barking up completely the wrong tree. > Now show me your similar > report on Ford springs. i'm not going to do your homework for you, but i've given you a relevant example. with that information, you can now compare and contrast for yourself and what i say will become clear. -- fact check required
|
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads
|
||||
| Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
| Need help finding alignment jigs for cam alignment on a 740iL | BMW | 2 | February 15th 05 03:58 PM | |
| Need help finding alignment jigs for cam alignment on a 740iL | BMW | 0 | February 6th 05 08:00 PM | |
| Need help finding alignment jigs for cam alignment on a 740iL | BMW | 0 | January 28th 05 08:47 PM | |
| Need help finding alignment jigs for cam alignment on a 740iL | BMW | 0 | January 28th 05 08:46 PM | |
| Need help finding alignment jigs for cam alignment on a 740iL | Jim Collins | BMW | 0 | January 26th 05 03:01 PM |
Linear Mode
