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Fuel pressure issue - 95 Astro - please help



 
 
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  #31  
Old February 7th 05, 06:33 AM
Lawrence Glickman
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On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 22:39:04 -0600, "Bob" > wrote:

>
>"Lawrence Glickman" > wrote in message
.. .
>> I imagine your career has peaked, and you're never going anywhere
>> beyond where you are now, which is changing oil and topping up
>> radiators. Must suck to be you, but then, you get what you deserve.
>>
>> Lg

>
>Well gee Larry, the only road to my shop was closed for two months last
>summer. While there was access to my shop through a park many customers had
>a hard time finding me, taking a short cut through the park or across
>neighboring lawns. One week after the road reopened we were hit with the
>worst flood in this towns history (8ft deep in my shop). In spite of all
>that last year was my best ever. You want credentials? I could type a long
>list of them but what would be the point? The only thing that really matters
>is that my customers are happy and keep coming back. By the way I rarely
>work on cars any more, I have employees for that. Things are damn good and
>only getting better. I get paid for repairing cars, pointing out your
>stupidity I consider a public service. Of coarse if you were to quit
>flapping your gums when you don't know what you're talking about my service
>wouldn't be needed any more.
> Bob


So you feel it is necessary to point out other people's stupidity to
them, then you are going to be a VERY BUSY person. In fact, forget
about taking time out to sleep or eat !

Lg

Ads
  #32  
Old February 7th 05, 05:36 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I just test drove the van with the fuel gauge hooked up and the needle
swept between 50psi and 70psi when I accelerated. The pressure never
dropped below 50psi even while the van was running poorly.

I also drained the gas and re-changed the fuel filter and it did not
help.

I will try and better explain how it is acting.

The van always starts and runs fine.
It drives fine for a short distance then starts to run very bad,
sometimes backfires, stalls, and completely dies.

It takes as much as 10 to 15 minutes of regular city driving to cause
these symptoms or 2-3 minutes of driving under a load (when I hot rod
it).

If the van completely dies, I can turn it off for 10 seconds then right
back on and I can usually baby it home (1-2 miles). If I leave it off
for 15 minutes it usually runs quite a bit better.

I have replaced:
Leaky CPI (spider)
Inlet outlet fuel lines (nut kit)
Fuel Filter
Fuel Pump and strainer
Exhaust from O2 sensor back (waste of $$$... my dumb fault)
Drained the gas

Is it time to take it to a mechanic? I am out of ideas and do not know
what else to check. Is there a certain test that a shop could perform
that would tell me what is wrong such as a general diagnostic or run it
on a computer?

Does this still sound like a fuel delivery problem?

  #33  
Old February 7th 05, 06:39 PM
Steve W.
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Posts: n/a
Default

Well you eliminated fuel problems. You say it only happens when the
engine gets warm? Go to a local electronics place and get a can of
"component cooler" (basically R-134A) Run the vehicle till it starts to
act up. Then pop the hood and spray ONE sensor/part at a time. I would
start with the ignition coil, then the base of the distributor. Then
work your way around the engine compartment. After you spray a part run
it some, when you find the bad part it should become obvious since the
problem should go away. I would almost guess the coil is breaking down
when it gets hot, but there are a LOT of sensors that can be affected by
heat.

--
Steve
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I just test drove the van with the fuel gauge hooked up and the needle
> swept between 50psi and 70psi when I accelerated. The pressure never
> dropped below 50psi even while the van was running poorly.
>
> I also drained the gas and re-changed the fuel filter and it did not
> help.
>
> I will try and better explain how it is acting.
>
> The van always starts and runs fine.
> It drives fine for a short distance then starts to run very bad,
> sometimes backfires, stalls, and completely dies.
>
> It takes as much as 10 to 15 minutes of regular city driving to cause
> these symptoms or 2-3 minutes of driving under a load (when I hot rod
> it).
>
> If the van completely dies, I can turn it off for 10 seconds then

right
> back on and I can usually baby it home (1-2 miles). If I leave it off
> for 15 minutes it usually runs quite a bit better.
>
> I have replaced:
> Leaky CPI (spider)
> Inlet outlet fuel lines (nut kit)
> Fuel Filter
> Fuel Pump and strainer
> Exhaust from O2 sensor back (waste of $$$... my dumb fault)
> Drained the gas
>
> Is it time to take it to a mechanic? I am out of ideas and do not

know
> what else to check. Is there a certain test that a shop could perform
> that would tell me what is wrong such as a general diagnostic or run

it
> on a computer?
>
> Does this still sound like a fuel delivery problem?
>
>




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  #34  
Old February 7th 05, 06:59 PM
TranSurgeon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

take off the goddam EGR valve and make a plate to cover the opening, and
re-test it

or take off the EGR, make sure it's fully closed, put it back on but DON'T
hook it up, and go for a drive

if your brake pedal gets 'hard to push' when this happens, it's the EGR
hanging open


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I just test drove the van with the fuel gauge hooked up and the needle
> swept between 50psi and 70psi when I accelerated. The pressure never
> dropped below 50psi even while the van was running poorly.
>
> I also drained the gas and re-changed the fuel filter and it did not
> help.
>
> I will try and better explain how it is acting.
>
> The van always starts and runs fine.
> It drives fine for a short distance then starts to run very bad,
> sometimes backfires, stalls, and completely dies.
>
> It takes as much as 10 to 15 minutes of regular city driving to cause
> these symptoms or 2-3 minutes of driving under a load (when I hot rod
> it).
>
> If the van completely dies, I can turn it off for 10 seconds then right
> back on and I can usually baby it home (1-2 miles). If I leave it off
> for 15 minutes it usually runs quite a bit better.
>
> I have replaced:
> Leaky CPI (spider)
> Inlet outlet fuel lines (nut kit)
> Fuel Filter
> Fuel Pump and strainer
> Exhaust from O2 sensor back (waste of $$$... my dumb fault)
> Drained the gas
>
> Is it time to take it to a mechanic? I am out of ideas and do not know
> what else to check. Is there a certain test that a shop could perform
> that would tell me what is wrong such as a general diagnostic or run it
> on a computer?
>
> Does this still sound like a fuel delivery problem?
>



  #35  
Old February 7th 05, 08:45 PM
Rich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I just test drove the van with the fuel gauge hooked up and the needle
> swept between 50psi and 70psi when I accelerated. The pressure never
> dropped below 50psi even while the van was running poorly.
>
> I also drained the gas and re-changed the fuel filter and it did not
> help.
>
> I will try and better explain how it is acting.
>
> The van always starts and runs fine.
> It drives fine for a short distance then starts to run very bad,
> sometimes backfires, stalls, and completely dies.
>
> It takes as much as 10 to 15 minutes of regular city driving to cause
> these symptoms or 2-3 minutes of driving under a load (when I hot rod
> it).
>
> If the van completely dies, I can turn it off for 10 seconds then right
> back on and I can usually baby it home (1-2 miles). If I leave it off
> for 15 minutes it usually runs quite a bit better.
>
> I have replaced:
> Leaky CPI (spider)
> Inlet outlet fuel lines (nut kit)
> Fuel Filter
> Fuel Pump and strainer
> Exhaust from O2 sensor back (waste of $$$... my dumb fault)
> Drained the gas
>
> Is it time to take it to a mechanic? I am out of ideas and do not know
> what else to check. Is there a certain test that a shop could perform
> that would tell me what is wrong such as a general diagnostic or run it
> on a computer?
>
> Does this still sound like a fuel delivery problem?


No it doesn't. Usually if you have a fuel problem the engine runs better,
if anything, as the engine warms up. Initial pressure, key on, should be
60 - 65 psi


  #36  
Old February 7th 05, 10:09 PM
Whitelightning
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I just test drove the van with the fuel gauge hooked up and the needle
> swept between 50psi and 70psi when I accelerated. The pressure never
> dropped below 50psi even while the van was running poorly.
>
> I also drained the gas and re-changed the fuel filter and it did not
> help.
>
> I will try and better explain how it is acting.
>
> The van always starts and runs fine.
> It drives fine for a short distance then starts to run very bad,
> sometimes backfires, stalls, and completely dies.
>
> It takes as much as 10 to 15 minutes of regular city driving to cause
> these symptoms or 2-3 minutes of driving under a load (when I hot rod
> it).
>
> If the van completely dies, I can turn it off for 10 seconds then right
> back on and I can usually baby it home (1-2 miles). If I leave it off
> for 15 minutes it usually runs quite a bit better.
>
> I have replaced:
> Leaky CPI (spider)
> Inlet outlet fuel lines (nut kit)
> Fuel Filter
> Fuel Pump and strainer
> Exhaust from O2 sensor back (waste of $$$... my dumb fault)
> Drained the gas
>
> Is it time to take it to a mechanic? I am out of ideas and do not know
> what else to check. Is there a certain test that a shop could perform
> that would tell me what is wrong such as a general diagnostic or run it
> on a computer?
>
> Does this still sound like a fuel delivery problem?
>

I am going out on a limb here and make a guess, actually a couple. One this
thing has a distributor. And as such it has a pick up coil, a magnet, and a
module. I would want a good scope put on the rig and watch the wave
patterns on the pick-up coil. while some of it sounds fuel related, the
back fire doesn't. I have ran into the same general symptoms you describe
in the past, except the time to restart was usually longer, but then by the
time I got them they were pretty much undrivable they had gotten so bad..
At 105,000 miles the bushings in the distributor are probably worn as well.
But I wouldn't change unless you can get a scope to verify which means
getting it to act up while its hooked up.
Whitelightning


  #37  
Old February 8th 05, 05:17 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I took off EGR valve made sure it was closed then reinstalled without
the plug. It did not help.

One more thing I just noticed. When the van is not acting up and I
turn it on then back off it will hold 25lbs of fuel pressure.

When it is acting up and I turn it off it will not hold any fuel
pressure. Even if I leave it off for a couple minutes it still will
not hold fuel pressure.

After an extended period of time (hours or overnight) it will again
hold 25lbs of fuel pressure when the key is off.

Also, I misspoke earlier. It is not backfiring it is popping back at
the engine. I am not sure what you call that. Sorry for the confusion.

btw, I just rented (deposit/free) an Actron Super AutoScanner. I will
read the manual today and post whatever data I can get out of it
tonight.

Thanks for the suggestions,

  #38  
Old February 9th 05, 06:38 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Summarizing

Fuel/Ignition/Other? Please help

I have been trying to figure this out with no success. Can you guys
take a look and offer any suggestions you might have?


Vehicle:
1995 CHEVROLET TRUCK ASTRO VAN
2WD Automatic Transmission
6 Cylinders 4.3L CPI
105,000 miles

Symptoms:
The van always starts and runs fine for at least a minute or two.
However after a short distance it will not accelerate properly and it
will try to stall. As it progresses I might get some popping at the
engine and eventually it will die. When I press the accelerator it
acts like it wants to die.

It takes as much as 10 to 15 minutes of regular city driving to cause
these symptoms or 2-3 minutes of driving under a load (when I hot-rod
it). It does not seem to be directly related to engine temperature.

If the van completely dies, I can turn it off for 10 seconds then right
back on and it definitely drives better (not completely normal). If I
leave it off for 15 minutes it usually runs quite a bit better.
Overnight and it runs normal when I first start it.

Parts Replaced:
Leaky CPI (spider)
Inlet outlet fuel lines (nut kit)
Fuel Filter
Fuel Pump and strainer
Exhaust from O2 sensor back
Drained the gas
Ignition coil
PCV Valve
Tune up (plugs,wires,cap,rotor)(6 months ago)
Oxygen sensor (6 months ago)


Current Diagnostic (I am a complete armature so some/all items could be
irrelevant)

EGR (sticking)
Tapping/ticking started after I removed/checked this. I am pretty sure
I just need to take it off again and clean or replace. I do not
believe this is my main problem because I took it off, closed the
valve, and reinstalled without hooking it up. This test did not change
any of the symptoms listed above.

Distributor
I just examined the distributor and one of the plug wires and probes on
the distributor was severely corroded; the rest were fine. I will get
a new cap and wire tonight and check the plug.

Fuel Pressure
Test with a fuel pressure gauge. After sitting overnight, turn key on
and I get 62psi pressure (in spec). Turn key off and it holds 25psi
pressure (there is no spec that I know of for this).
While running it never drops below 50psi (in spec) even when it is
acting up. While it is acting up and I accelerate the needle will
sweep between 50psi to 70psi very fast.
What concerns me is that after it is acting up and I turn the key off
the fuel pressure instantly DROPS to 0psi. It this an issue?
If I let the van sit for two minutes and turn the key on (pump on) then
back off again it will still drop to 0psi. If I let it sit overnight
it will again hold 25psi of pressure with the key off.

Codes
The check engine light (service engine soon) does work, but does NOT
turn on. I do not get any codes. To verify I rented an "Actron
Super AutoScanner" and checked the codes. I do not get any.

I know I can monitor real time data with this device (scanner) but I do
not know what to look for (suggestions?).



Do you guys have any suggestions on what to try next? I am about out
of ideas and I am thinking about taking it to the shop. If/when I take
it in, do you have and advice on what type of shop or diagnostic test I
should ask them to run (or not to run)?

  #39  
Old February 10th 05, 12:55 AM
Steve W.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

An engine needs thre things to run
Air, Fuel, Ignition source
Air is a given unless your covering the air cleaner with a bag.
Fuel - about the only thing you didn't replace was the tank, so I would
say your OK there

The symptoms point to a heat related failure. Some component is getting
hot enough to shut down the engine.
Since you still have fuel pressure when the engine dies it isn't a bad
pump.
It also isn't likely the EGR since they don't normally shut down an
engine and then clear up when they get cool. They are either stuck open
(which causes REAL bad idle on the 4.3 and an engine that will not idle
hot or cold) or they don't work at all.


Ignition?
You said you found a cruddy wire end. One usually won't do much but
cause missfiring in that cylinder. I has a problem with the wifes 94 4.3
that was a bad set of plug wires. It caused massive missfiring but no
real problem with running or acceleration. Just bucking under load.
(common symptom FYI).

Bad plugs- Not likely since they fire OK when cold. Plus for the engine
to quit they all have to stop working.

Plug wires- Same as above BUT they could cause crossfiring.

Cap - Usually causes missfires if the cap is bad.

Rotor - possible but not real likely.

Coil- very possible- it could be shorting out internally when it gets
warm enough.

Ignition Module - possible for the above reason, but they usually just
fail.

Computer - It's not showing codes which is not unusual for an OBD I.5
vehicle (oddball that GM used in 95 on some vehicles) they mainly show a
code only when an item totally fails, unlike OBD II that can tell you
that a sensor is just getting weak. It could have a bad connection on
the main connection though.

Main wiring harness connection on the firewall - It has been a culprit a
few times for heat related problems. It gets warm and the connection
opens.

It is also possible that it could be a bad connection to one of the
above components.

--
Steve Williams

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Summarizing
>
> Fuel/Ignition/Other? Please help
>
> I have been trying to figure this out with no success. Can you guys
> take a look and offer any suggestions you might have?
>
>
> Vehicle:
> 1995 CHEVROLET TRUCK ASTRO VAN
> 2WD Automatic Transmission
> 6 Cylinders 4.3L CPI
> 105,000 miles
>
> Symptoms:
> The van always starts and runs fine for at least a minute or two.
> However after a short distance it will not accelerate properly and it
> will try to stall. As it progresses I might get some popping at the
> engine and eventually it will die. When I press the accelerator it
> acts like it wants to die.
>
> It takes as much as 10 to 15 minutes of regular city driving to cause
> these symptoms or 2-3 minutes of driving under a load (when I hot-rod
> it). It does not seem to be directly related to engine temperature.
>
> If the van completely dies, I can turn it off for 10 seconds then

right
> back on and it definitely drives better (not completely normal). If I
> leave it off for 15 minutes it usually runs quite a bit better.
> Overnight and it runs normal when I first start it.
>
> Parts Replaced:
> Leaky CPI (spider)
> Inlet outlet fuel lines (nut kit)
> Fuel Filter
> Fuel Pump and strainer
> Exhaust from O2 sensor back
> Drained the gas
> Ignition coil
> PCV Valve
> Tune up (plugs,wires,cap,rotor)(6 months ago)
> Oxygen sensor (6 months ago)
>
>
> Current Diagnostic (I am a complete armature so some/all items could

be
> irrelevant)
>
> EGR (sticking)
> Tapping/ticking started after I removed/checked this. I am pretty

sure
> I just need to take it off again and clean or replace. I do not
> believe this is my main problem because I took it off, closed the
> valve, and reinstalled without hooking it up. This test did not

change
> any of the symptoms listed above.
>
> Distributor
> I just examined the distributor and one of the plug wires and probes

on
> the distributor was severely corroded; the rest were fine. I will

get
> a new cap and wire tonight and check the plug.
>
> Fuel Pressure
> Test with a fuel pressure gauge. After sitting overnight, turn key

on
> and I get 62psi pressure (in spec). Turn key off and it holds 25psi
> pressure (there is no spec that I know of for this).
> While running it never drops below 50psi (in spec) even when it is
> acting up. While it is acting up and I accelerate the needle will
> sweep between 50psi to 70psi very fast.
> What concerns me is that after it is acting up and I turn the key off
> the fuel pressure instantly DROPS to 0psi. It this an issue?
> If I let the van sit for two minutes and turn the key on (pump on)

then
> back off again it will still drop to 0psi. If I let it sit overnight
> it will again hold 25psi of pressure with the key off.
>
> Codes
> The check engine light (service engine soon) does work, but does NOT
> turn on. I do not get any codes. To verify I rented an "Actron
> Super AutoScanner" and checked the codes. I do not get any.
>
> I know I can monitor real time data with this device (scanner) but I

do
> not know what to look for (suggestions?).
>
>
>
> Do you guys have any suggestions on what to try next? I am about out
> of ideas and I am thinking about taking it to the shop. If/when I

take
> it in, do you have and advice on what type of shop or diagnostic test

I
> should ask them to run (or not to run)?
>





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  #40  
Old February 10th 05, 04:14 AM
ed
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Steve W. wrote:
> An engine needs thre things to run
> Air, Fuel, Ignition source
> Air is a given unless your covering the air cleaner with a bag.
> Fuel - about the only thing you didn't replace was the tank, so I would
> say your OK there
>
> The symptoms point to a heat related failure. Some component is getting
> hot enough to shut down the engine.
> Since you still have fuel pressure when the engine dies it isn't a bad
> pump.
> It also isn't likely the EGR since they don't normally shut down an
> engine and then clear up when they get cool. They are either stuck open
> (which causes REAL bad idle on the 4.3 and an engine that will not idle
> hot or cold) or they don't work at all.
>
>
> Ignition?
> You said you found a cruddy wire end. One usually won't do much but
> cause missfiring in that cylinder. I has a problem with the wifes 94 4.3
> that was a bad set of plug wires. It caused massive missfiring but no
> real problem with running or acceleration. Just bucking under load.
> (common symptom FYI).
>
> Bad plugs- Not likely since they fire OK when cold. Plus for the engine
> to quit they all have to stop working.
>
> Plug wires- Same as above BUT they could cause crossfiring.
>
> Cap - Usually causes missfires if the cap is bad.
>
> Rotor - possible but not real likely.
>
> Coil- very possible- it could be shorting out internally when it gets
> warm enough.
>
> Ignition Module - possible for the above reason, but they usually just
> fail.
>
> Computer - It's not showing codes which is not unusual for an OBD I.5
> vehicle (oddball that GM used in 95 on some vehicles) they mainly show a
> code only when an item totally fails, unlike OBD II that can tell you
> that a sensor is just getting weak. It could have a bad connection on
> the main connection though.
>
> Main wiring harness connection on the firewall - It has been a culprit a
> few times for heat related problems. It gets warm and the connection
> opens.
>
> It is also possible that it could be a bad connection to one of the
> above components.
>

I think I'd elmintae fuel entirely for the most part and at least slap a
gauge on that fuel pressure. Run it and shut it off see if it holds
pressure. See what the presure is when it stops running for the hell of it.

Sure the EGR is carboned up inside?(it should be getting close by now).

 




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