Strange Dangerous Problem. Anyone Help?

I have a 1999 Explorer XLT (72000 on clock, all but first 3000 mine) in UK.
Was driving through town at 25 or so mph in traffic.
Traffic ahead slowed so i touched the brakes. There was a strange metallic
knocking noise, just like a spanner being dropped through the engine
compartment, and the pedal lost all resistance and went to the floor. Total
Brake Failure!!!
Panicked somewhat, pumped the pedal a few times and the brakes came back.
Stopped and did a quick check, but could see nothing wrong, and the brakes
seemed normal, so drove home to change my underpants and check the car
properly.
A more detailed check revealed nothing either, no warning lights etc, fluid
level was slightly down, so the only thing i could imagine was that i'd
dropped a disc brake pad or shoe somehow.
Took it to my regular garage who are a Ford specialist (But not the
authorised Ford Dealer i admit, as they are rip-off merchants) for a
complete brake check as well as a service, and they could find nothing
wrong, and couldnt imagine what might have caused the problem. As they said,
brakes are designed to fail safe, as they are dual system.
I've now driven about 100 miles with no further problem, but am very wary in
case it happens again.
I'm considering writing to Ford UK, but suspect they will say either 'cars
well out of warranty, not interested' or 'go to your local Ford dealer and
pay to have it checked'
Anyone out there had anything similar happen, and found out what caused it?,
or anyone got any ideas what it might be?, or if anyone from Ford still
monitors this newsgroup, what will you do??.

This is just a guess, but it sounds like the ABS operated. What were the
road conditions at the time? Was it raining (hardly ever happens in the
UK)? Was it cold enough that there could have been ice on the road? Maybe
something slippery on the road that caused one or more of your wheels to
lose traction?

I presume that your ABS light is off, since you didn't mention it. I'm no
expert, but if I had to take a stab at it, (and since it hasn't recurred in
100 miles), I'd say that your ABS operated properly, in response to
something you were unaware of. I suppose that you could have a bad sensor
or other component of the system.

HTH
Kevin

"Mike Palastanga" > wrote in message
...
>I have a 1999 Explorer XLT (72000 on clock, all but first 3000 mine) in
>UK.
> Was driving through town at 25 or so mph in traffic.
> Traffic ahead slowed so i touched the brakes. There was a strange metallic
> knocking noise, just like a spanner being dropped through the engine
> compartment, and the pedal lost all resistance and went to the floor.
> Total Brake Failure!!!
> Panicked somewhat, pumped the pedal a few times and the brakes came back.
> Stopped and did a quick check, but could see nothing wrong, and the brakes
> seemed normal, so drove home to change my underpants and check the car
> properly.
> A more detailed check revealed nothing either, no warning lights etc,
> fluid level was slightly down, so the only thing i could imagine was that
> i'd dropped a disc brake pad or shoe somehow.
> Took it to my regular garage who are a Ford specialist (But not the
> authorised Ford Dealer i admit, as they are rip-off merchants) for a
> complete brake check as well as a service, and they could find nothing
> wrong, and couldnt imagine what might have caused the problem. As they
> said, brakes are designed to fail safe, as they are dual system.
> I've now driven about 100 miles with no further problem, but am very wary
> in case it happens again.
> I'm considering writing to Ford UK, but suspect they will say either 'cars
> well out of warranty, not interested' or 'go to your local Ford dealer and
> pay to have it checked'
> Anyone out there had anything similar happen, and found out what caused
> it?, or anyone got any ideas what it might be?, or if anyone from Ford
> still monitors this newsgroup, what will you do??.
>

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 05:41:36 GMT, "Kevin D" >
wrote:

>This is just a guess, but it sounds like the ABS operated.

Definitely not!
ABS does not make the pedal drop to the floor, not does it make a
sound that could be described as "a spanner being dropped through the
engine compartment"
>What were the
>road conditions at the time? Was it raining (hardly ever happens in the
>UK)? Was it cold enough that there could have been ice on the road? Maybe
>something slippery on the road that caused one or more of your wheels to
>lose traction?
>
>I presume that your ABS light is off, since you didn't mention it. I'm no
>expert, but if I had to take a stab at it, (and since it hasn't recurred in
>100 miles), I'd say that your ABS operated properly, in response to
>something you were unaware of. I suppose that you could have a bad sensor
>or other component of the system.

Definitely wrong. The ABS simply does not operate in such a manner.
>
>HTH
>Kevin
>
>"Mike Palastanga" > wrote in message
...
>>I have a 1999 Explorer XLT (72000 on clock, all but first 3000 mine) in
>>UK.
>> Was driving through town at 25 or so mph in traffic.
>> Traffic ahead slowed so i touched the brakes. There was a strange metallic
>> knocking noise, just like a spanner being dropped through the engine
>> compartment, and the pedal lost all resistance and went to the floor.
>> Total Brake Failure!!!
>> Panicked somewhat, pumped the pedal a few times and the brakes came back.
>> Stopped and did a quick check, but could see nothing wrong, and the brakes
>> seemed normal, so drove home to change my underpants and check the car
>> properly.
>> A more detailed check revealed nothing either, no warning lights etc,
>> fluid level was slightly down, so the only thing i could imagine was that
>> i'd dropped a disc brake pad or shoe somehow.
>> Took it to my regular garage who are a Ford specialist (But not the
>> authorised Ford Dealer i admit, as they are rip-off merchants) for a
>> complete brake check as well as a service, and they could find nothing
>> wrong, and couldnt imagine what might have caused the problem. As they
>> said, brakes are designed to fail safe, as they are dual system.
>> I've now driven about 100 miles with no further problem, but am very wary
>> in case it happens again.
>> I'm considering writing to Ford UK, but suspect they will say either 'cars
>> well out of warranty, not interested' or 'go to your local Ford dealer and
>> pay to have it checked'
>> Anyone out there had anything similar happen, and found out what caused
>> it?, or anyone got any ideas what it might be?, or if anyone from Ford
>> still monitors this newsgroup, what will you do??.
>>
>

--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"

Well, the sound of "a spanner being dropped through the engine
compartment" could have been a rock kicked up from the road into the
engine compartment, and maybe batted around a bit by the fan.

I have no idea how this could have caused the brake pedal to drop to the
floor, unless the rock smacked into a hose or a fitting (vacuum or
hydraulic) and induced a momentary leak. Have you reached in and firmly
flexed everything, looking for a spurt of fluid or a hiss of vacuum?

Bill Jeffrey
=====================

>>>A more detailed check revealed nothing either, no warning lights etc,
>>>fluid level was slightly down, so the only thing i could imagine was that
>>>i'd dropped a disc brake pad or shoe somehow.

"Big Bill" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 05:41:36 GMT, "Kevin D" >
> wrote:
>
> >This is just a guess, but it sounds like the ABS operated.
>
> Definitely not!
> ABS does not make the pedal drop to the floor, not does it make a
> sound that could be described as "a spanner being dropped through the
> engine compartment"
>
> Definitely wrong. The ABS simply does not operate in such a manner.
>
>
> Bill Funk

Have you ever been driving when the ABS activated? The pedal feels funny,
kind of soft, and there is the ratcheting noise that could be described as
"a spanner being dropped through the engine compartment". If it was his
first time, he felt the pedal and heard the noise, and got off the brakes in
a panic, I could definitely see how he could end up describing the event as
he did.

Sorry Bill, but your "definitely" doesn't hold a bit of water. I'll wager
an ABS trigger was exactly what happened. Either he freaked, or the ABS
controller momentarily did.

Jack

Roads dry, No ice, not that cold, No warning lights visible, and i didnt
notice any at the time (well shortly after, My eyes were fixed on the car in
front and the possibility of avoiding him at the precise time!). I have had
the ABS operate before, but only during emergency braking, and with
hindsight that might just have been the noise, but those times the pedal
stayed firm and vibrated slightly. This really sounded like i had dropped a
brake shoe, and the effect was the same in that i had to pump the brakes to
get any braking. I only 'touched' the pedal to ease up slightly and it just
went right to the floor 2 or 3 times! So far, I'm with Budman. Is the ford
similar in design in any way?
PS is it likely that the computer will have registered any fault codes?
Maybe the answer might be to have that checked out

> wrote in message
...
>I DO know that a GMC pickup that had a defective front wheel speed sensor
>lost
> all brakes (at low speed) and they guy ran into a brick wall. Hardly
> "fail
> safe" I'd say. That was the findings at the GM dealer.
>
>>>"Mike Palastanga" 1999 Explorer XLT in UK.
>>>> Was driving through town at 25 or so mph in traffic.
>>>> Traffic ahead slowed so i touched the brakes. There was a strange
>>>> metallic
>>>> knocking noise, just like a spanner being dropped through the engine
>>>> compartment, and the pedal lost all resistance and went to the floor.
>>>> ETC

On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 21:29:32 -0000, "Mike Palastanga" >
wrote:

>I have a 1999 Explorer XLT (72000 on clock, all but first 3000 mine) in UK.
>Was driving through town at 25 or so mph in traffic.
>Traffic ahead slowed so i touched the brakes. There was a strange metallic
>knocking noise, just like a spanner being dropped through the engine
>compartment, and the pedal lost all resistance and went to the floor. Total
>Brake Failure!!!
>Panicked somewhat, pumped the pedal a few times and the brakes came back.
>Stopped and did a quick check, but could see nothing wrong, and the brakes
>seemed normal, so drove home to change my underpants and check the car
>properly.
>A more detailed check revealed nothing either, no warning lights etc, fluid
>level was slightly down, so the only thing i could imagine was that i'd
>dropped a disc brake pad or shoe somehow.
>Took it to my regular garage who are a Ford specialist (But not the
>authorised Ford Dealer i admit, as they are rip-off merchants) for a
>complete brake check as well as a service, and they could find nothing
>wrong, and couldnt imagine what might have caused the problem. As they said,
>brakes are designed to fail safe, as they are dual system.
>I've now driven about 100 miles with no further problem, but am very wary in
>case it happens again.
>I'm considering writing to Ford UK, but suspect they will say either 'cars
>well out of warranty, not interested' or 'go to your local Ford dealer and
>pay to have it checked'
>Anyone out there had anything similar happen, and found out what caused it?,
>or anyone got any ideas what it might be?, or if anyone from Ford still
>monitors this newsgroup, what will you do??.
>

I would take it to the certified Ford dealer and get this on the record. Maybe
someone at Ford has run into this before or is willing to let an engineer ponder
over it. I wouldn't count on Ford monitoring this news group. I wouldn't drive
the car after an incident like that until I was sure that someone who really
knew the entire system (maybe including getting computer dumps) checked it out.
Should it happen again, you may not be so lucky and have enough time to pump
the brakes.

Ben

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:38:26 -0500, wrote:

>I beg to differ with you. I have a 1997 Limited and when the ABS is activated,
>like on snowy streets here in Southern Ontario, the pedal DOES go quite a bit
>lower than "usual" and there is quite a racket coming from somewhere. This has
>always been the case, and I'm quite used to it. The ABS stops the car
>perfectly, as long as firm pressure is applied CONSTANTLY!

The description was that the pedal went to the floor, and had to be
pumped to get any pedal back.
That is *NOT* the way ABS works. If yours works that way, you have a
severe problem, and are driving an unsafe vehicle.
And that's the way of it.

--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 22:08:09 GMT, "Jack Goff" > wrote:

>
>"Big Bill" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 05:41:36 GMT, "Kevin D" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >This is just a guess, but it sounds like the ABS operated.
>>
>> Definitely not!
>> ABS does not make the pedal drop to the floor, not does it make a
>> sound that could be described as "a spanner being dropped through the
>> engine compartment"
>>
>> Definitely wrong. The ABS simply does not operate in such a manner.
>>
>>
>> Bill Funk
>
>Have you ever been driving when the ABS activated? The pedal feels funny,
>kind of soft, and there is the ratcheting noise that could be described as
>"a spanner being dropped through the engine compartment". If it was his
>first time, he felt the pedal and heard the noise, and got off the brakes in
>a panic, I could definitely see how he could end up describing the event as
>he did.
>
>Sorry Bill, but your "definitely" doesn't hold a bit of water. I'll wager
>an ABS trigger was exactly what happened. Either he freaked, or the ABS
>controller momentarily did.
>
>Jack
>
Yes, I've experienced the ABS in action.
The pedal does *NOT* drop to the floor, and it does *NOT* require
pumping the pedal to get pedal feel (and brakes) back.
If yours does that, you have a severe problem, and are driving an
unsafe vehicle.
And that's the way of it.

--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"

If his does that he has a bad master cylinder...and needs to get it
replaced post haste.

"Big Bill" > wrote in message
...
| On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 22:08:09 GMT, "Jack Goff" > wrote:
|
| >
| >"Big Bill" > wrote in message
| .. .
| >> On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 05:41:36 GMT, "Kevin D" >
| >> wrote:
| >>
| >> >This is just a guess, but it sounds like the ABS operated.
| >>
| >> Definitely not!
| >> ABS does not make the pedal drop to the floor, not does it make a
| >> sound that could be described as "a spanner being dropped through the
| >> engine compartment"
| >>
| >> Definitely wrong. The ABS simply does not operate in such a manner.
| >>
| >>
| >> Bill Funk
| >
| >Have you ever been driving when the ABS activated? The pedal feels
funny,
| >kind of soft, and there is the ratcheting noise that could be described
as
| >"a spanner being dropped through the engine compartment". If it was his
| >first time, he felt the pedal and heard the noise, and got off the brakes
in
| >a panic, I could definitely see how he could end up describing the event
as
| >he did.
| >
| >Sorry Bill, but your "definitely" doesn't hold a bit of water. I'll
wager
| >an ABS trigger was exactly what happened. Either he freaked, or the ABS
| >controller momentarily did.
| >
| >Jack
| >
| Yes, I've experienced the ABS in action.
| The pedal does *NOT* drop to the floor, and it does *NOT* require
| pumping the pedal to get pedal feel (and brakes) back.
| If yours does that, you have a severe problem, and are driving an
| unsafe vehicle.
| And that's the way of it.
|
| --
| Bill Funk
| Change "g" to "a"