Ethanol in gas?

On 28 Apr 2006 07:03:17 -0700, "butch burton" >
wrote:

>The basic problem with ethanol is how energy inefficient it is to
>produce. Cornell said it takes 129 BTU's of energy to make 100 BTU's
>of energy from ethanol. There is a vast world surplus of sugar just
>now and even with that surplus I will bet Brazil is subsidizing the
>hell out of their ethanol program.

The problem with that theory is that subsidies don't produce energy
directly. Brazilian oil imports are going down while energy use is
going up. The energy has to be coming from somewhere. Throwing money
at ethanol production wouldn't reduce fuel imports unless there was a
net gain in BTUs.

SoCalMike wrote:
>
> they gotta make the money while they can, because dubya and his cronies
> only have a few more years of looting to go! gotta make sure they can
> all retire VERY comfortably, while the next administration (dem or
> repub) has to deal with the aftermath.

Got to agree. It's all about greed.
In a related matter, guess which former employer of our Vice Pres.
managed to botch the reconstruction of a major Iraqi oil pipeline? How
better to raise the price of oil than by keeping supply short? And that
contract was awarded sole source of course, no competition, no
scrutiny. And the contract is still in place despite non-performance.

You can hide that net gain in BTU in government budgets for a long
time. Employment rises, sugar production subsidies, etc etc. The
question is, are the economics right? Maybe it is in Brazil, but that
doesn't mean it is right for the US.

That is why we Europeans put strict controls on our big bad oil companies
and in some cases even completely nationalized our oil industries we are
trying to partially undo this now). We put our national governments in
control so that the oil industry serves the interest of the people rather
than the interest of a few millionaires. Result: we pay $6 per gallon for
gas.

ThomasE wrote:
> That is why we Europeans put strict controls on our big bad oil companies
> and in some cases even completely nationalized our oil industries we are
> trying to partially undo this now). We put our national governments in
> control so that the oil industry serves the interest of the people rather
> than the interest of a few millionaires. Result: we pay $6 per gallon for
> gas.
>
sure... but what kind of income or sales taxes are there? hows
unemployment? hows health care?

In Europe, income tax rates vary by country but generally speaking the top
marginal tax rates are somewhere between 40% to 55% in most countries and
these top rates kick in at moderate incomes, somewhere between
$50,000-$100,000 yearly income.

Sales tax rates in Europe (called VAT=Value Added Tax) range from 15% to
20% and there are much fewer exceptions to what is not taxed compared to
the typical US sales tax (eg in the US some states do not tax services).


There are also a lot of other taxes in Europe which the consumer often
does not even see. Eg. Most European cars have hefty luxury taxes on
automobiles that you Americans consider average (eg. a Jeep Cherokee).
Most countries have steep progressive taxes on automobile engine size.
There are levys on our utility bills for national TV channels that we may
never watch, and so on… a lot more indirect taxation compared to the US.

The healthcare systems are more difficult to compare although I am
somewhat familiar with the subject because I work in cancer research. Most
European countries have nationalized health care systems. In my experience
the better ones of these systems are comparable to some of the less
desirable HMO’s here in America. The PPO plans that American companies
typically offer are far superior to any European national healthcare
system.

I think that you are all too eager to criticize and fix an America that
ain’t broken.
For example, as far as profits go, the US oil industry is not the evil
that it is portrayed to be (I remind you, I have nothing to do with the
oil industry, I have a background in Biophysics and Computer Science and I
work in cancer research).
In absolute dollar terms oil industry profits may seem large but when
sales volume is taken into account one finds that their profit margins are
below industry average. Recent data reports an average profit margin of
around 8% for the oil industry (some numbers: Shell 7.7% BP 6.8% Exxon
10.7% Chevron 10.7%)
By comparison, Yahoo operates on a 45% profit margin, Citigroup on a 34%
margin and so on. Pharmaceuticals and Biotech industries as a whole have
an average profit margin of 19%, Banks 18%, Food 9%. Are these industries
evil too?

As a European I am telling you, America aint’ broken so don’t try so hard
to fix it, especially if the fixing is trying to make it like Europe, a
Europe which having fallen so far behind in economic development is
finally grudgingly attempting some changes. But the moment America becomes
more like Europe and consequently stops pulling the world economy wagon,
Europe will surely and merrily go back to its old ways.

Unfortunately, no matter what I may say, you Americans will also gradually
and predictably invite government intervention in more and more aspects of
your life thereby falling into the same inevitable trap that every other
nation in this world has fallen. As a matter of fact you never escaped
that fate, you are just earlier on in this process because this is still a
new country having been colonized just 3 centuries ago.

In article <H5h3g.15405$NG.11263@dukeread10>, says...
>
>
>my local stations just started using ethanol in their pumps (happend about 2
>weeks ago or so) they are all 10% ethanol. besides form what I've been
>reading about it getting worse gas mileage (which I find funny, because gas
>keeps going up steadly, and then one day I notice a 10% ethanol sticker, and
>gas was still higher.... seems pretty fishy to me, but what can you expect
>from oil companies. ) is ethanol bad for my engine (I4 2006 accord) what
>percentage of ethanol can it safely take? do any stations still use regular
>gas formulations (non ethanol)?

Find a new place to buy gas. Ethanol has a lower energy content, so unless the
price is lower, you are getting less for your money.
------------------------
Alex

ThomasE wrote:
> I think that you are all too eager to criticize and fix an America that
> ain’t broken.
> For example, as far as profits go, the US oil industry is not the evil
> that it is portrayed to be (I remind you, I have nothing to do with the

the secretary of energy said they expect rising gas prices for the next
3 years, until our esteemed leader leaves office.

has the price of gas in europe doubled over the past year? are italians
now paying $10/gal?

because thats whats happened. gas was always under the $2 mark, usually
around $1.50/gal. now its double that.


> oil industry, I have a background in Biophysics and Computer Science and I
> work in cancer research).
> In absolute dollar terms oil industry profits may seem large but when
> sales volume is taken into account one finds that their profit margins are
> below industry average. Recent data reports an average profit margin of
> around 8% for the oil industry (some numbers: Shell 7.7% BP 6.8% Exxon
> 10.7% Chevron 10.7%)

exxon mobil just posted record net profits last quarter... higher than
walmart. thats AFTER all expenses are paid.

> By comparison, Yahoo operates on a 45% profit margin, Citigroup on a 34%
> margin and so on. Pharmaceuticals and Biotech industries as a whole have
> an average profit margin of 19%, Banks 18%, Food 9%. Are these industries
> evil too?

have they all doubled what they charge in the past year, just because
they can?

pharmaceutical companies have taken a lot of flack for selling the same
drugs cheaper to the rest of the world than they do to americans. which
is why some americans go to canada or mexico for prescription drugs.
>
> As a European I am telling you, America aint’ broken so don’t try so hard
> to fix it, especially if the fixing is trying to make it like Europe, a
> Europe which having fallen so far behind in economic development is
> finally grudgingly attempting some changes. But the moment America becomes
> more like Europe and consequently stops pulling the world economy wagon,
> Europe will surely and merrily go back to its old ways.
>
> Unfortunately, no matter what I may say, you Americans will also gradually
> and predictably invite government intervention in more and more aspects of
> your life thereby falling into the same inevitable trap that every other
> nation in this world has fallen. As a matter of fact you never escaped
> that fate, you are just earlier on in this process because this is still a
> new country having been colonized just 3 centuries ago.
>
>

Here is an interesting site which goes into the economics of ethanol -
the numbers are fascinating.
http://zfacts.com/p/60.html