Another police department caught with a quota.

"Dave" > wrote in message
reenews.net...
>
> "jaybird" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Mike T." > wrote in message
>> reenews.net...
>>>> They're not supposed to. They are illegal and unconstitutional.
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> jaybird
>>>
>>> And yet they do, In almost every police force in the U.S.A. Yours
>>> excluded, I'm sure. Just as long as you realize that your squad is the
>>> exception, and FAR removed from reality. -Dave
>>
>> In the event of a vast conspiracy such as that, my family and I choose
>> not to place ourselves in a situation to fall victim to such things.
>>
>> ---
>> jaybird
>>
>>
>
> Who said anything about conspiracy? You are a toll collector, with a
> badge. No conspiracy involved. The money you use goes to balance local
> government budgets. When the local government runs out of money, you will
> be pressured to increase your toll collection activity. Well, not YOU
> personally jaybird, as you are the exception, and not the rule.
>
> You believe that traffic tickets are about safety. That was the original
> intent, at least. Problem is, it was quickly recognized as a major cash
> cow. Now traffic tickets are MOST about revenue. Anybody who believes
> otherwise is wrong and naive. -Dave

I don't have any great love for administrators or politicians but I am not a
toll collector and I get paid the same whether I write one ticket a week or
100.

---
jaybird

In article .com>,
"gpsman" > wrote:

> > So you are saying that in your limited, idiotic opinion that the 85th
> > percentile method, which has been repeatedly proven to be the best,
> > fairest, safest method for setting speed limits, is invalid?
>
> Where did I say that? Where has anybody ever said that (except here,
> of course)?!
>
> Where is the evidence that speed limits are -not- set according to the
> 85th percentile **and the associated criteria**? I know it exists in
> the minds of idiots, but where is there a reputable source?

The evidence is on the roads every day, where it is quite obvious that
not only is the limit not *near* the 85th percentile speed, but indeed
that it is likely that 85% of traffic is exceeding the posted limit.

--
"The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" --
"I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone and how he missed
the demo of the iPhone speakerphone.

>
> The evidence is on the roads every day, where it is quite obvious that
> not only is the limit not *near* the 85th percentile speed, but indeed
> that it is likely that 85% of traffic is exceeding the posted limit.
>

Yup. In most areas, the speed limit is set darn near the ZERO percentile
range. -Dave

In article >,
"jaybird" > wrote:

> "Dave" > wrote in message
> reenews.net...
> >
> > "jaybird" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "Mike T." > wrote in message
> >> reenews.net...
> >>>> They're not supposed to. They are illegal and unconstitutional.
> >>>>
> >>>> ---
> >>>> jaybird
> >>>
> >>> And yet they do, In almost every police force in the U.S.A. Yours
> >>> excluded, I'm sure. Just as long as you realize that your squad is the
> >>> exception, and FAR removed from reality. -Dave
> >>
> >> In the event of a vast conspiracy such as that, my family and I choose
> >> not to place ourselves in a situation to fall victim to such things.
> >>
> >> ---
> >> jaybird
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Who said anything about conspiracy? You are a toll collector, with a
> > badge. No conspiracy involved. The money you use goes to balance local
> > government budgets. When the local government runs out of money, you will
> > be pressured to increase your toll collection activity. Well, not YOU
> > personally jaybird, as you are the exception, and not the rule.
> >
> > You believe that traffic tickets are about safety. That was the original
> > intent, at least. Problem is, it was quickly recognized as a major cash
> > cow. Now traffic tickets are MOST about revenue. Anybody who believes
> > otherwise is wrong and naive. -Dave
>
> I don't have any great love for administrators or politicians but I am not a
> toll collector and I get paid the same whether I write one ticket a week or
> 100.
>
> ---
> jaybird

Most toll collectors get paid the same regardless of how many tolls they
collect.

So what?

--
"The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" --
"I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone and how he missed
the demo of the iPhone speakerphone.

"Dave" > wrote in message
reenews.net...
> >
>> You believe that traffic tickets are about safety. That was the original
>> intent, at least. Problem is, it was quickly recognized as a major cash
>> cow. Now traffic tickets are MOST about revenue. Anybody who believes
>> otherwise is wrong and naive. -Dave
>
> Jaybird - I'd like to add to what I wrote earlier. I'm not trying to put
> you down or insult you or argue against you here, but I really think you
> need to understand something:
>
> WHETHER RIGHT OR WRONG,
>
> 99.99% of motorists on the road who are not cops do HONESTLY believe that
> traffic tickets (especially speeding tickets) are mostly about
> money/revenue and have very little to do with safety.
>
> I KNOW you DISAGREE with that sentiment. And I'm not going to say that
> you are wrong. I'm not here to argue the point.
>
> What you need to understand is that (even if you believe they are wrong),
> EVERY person you hand a speeding ticket to is ****ed off, as they see it
> as nothing more than roadside tax collection activity. Yes, even the
> people who act polite and don't seem to be ****ed off. THEY ALL believe
> that you are handing them a tax bill for road usage tax. ALL of them.
> Some of them won't let YOU know that they are ****ed off, as it's
> intimidating to disagree with a man with a gun. But they are all ****ed
> off.
>
> It's important for you to understand the real reason they are ****ed off
> though. It's not that they were "caught", or that they were
> "inconvenienced", or that they are going to have to pay a fine, it's that
> they know you are wasting your time AND THEIRS, and costing them money,
> for NO REASON AT ALL.
>
> It wouldn't be that way if speed limits were set properly. I know YOU
> probably believe that speed limits ARE set properly. But again, 99.99% of
> motorists who are not cops HONESTLY believe that speed limits are set to
> MAXIMIZE REVENUE to local governments. And again, they won't tell that to
> YOU, while you are armed and chatting with them at the roadside tax
> collection point.
>
> You might think all motorists are wrong, but it's important for you to
> understand that ALL motorists also believe that YOU are wrong. It's
> important for you to understand that, so you will know that if you are
> trying to improve traffic safety by issuing speeding tickets, you are
> banging your head against the wall. It is doing NOTHING to improve
> traffic safety. People who get speeding tickets don't get the message
> that they should slow down. They get the message that they have been
> randomly selected to donate to local government coffers. That is the ONLY
> message they receive.
>
> You don't have to agree with what I wrote, as long as you realize that
> what you just read is, REALITY, for everyone who is not a cop. -Dave

I appreciate that and believe it or not, I do try and treat everyone fairly
and this n.g. has had an influence on much of what I do when it comes to
tickets. If all someone has done is go 10 or so over the speed limit, I'll
usually write them a warning and send them on down the road. If they have
other violations like no insurance, expired stickers, suspended license,
etc., then I'll write a warning for speeding and a citation or arrest for
the other violations beyond the initial stop. I'm not out there to be a
dick, but if someone needs a ticket then I'm going to write it and still get
8 hours of sleep that night.

I've seen the causes and results of crashes and base my enforcement actions
on those factors. Sometimes a warning will do; other times a ticket is
needed and I absolutely don't care if those people don't like me personally.
I have enough friends. Our saying goes: If I wanted everyone to like me I'd
have been a fireman.

---
jaybird

"Brent P" > wrote in message
. ..
> In article .com>, N8N
> wrote:
>> On Mar 20, 9:40 pm, "gpsman" > wrote:
>
>>> > 99.99% of motorists on the road who are not cops do HONESTLY believe
>>> > that
>>> > traffic tickets (especially speeding tickets) are mostly about
>>> > money/revenue
>>> > and have very little to do with safety.
>
>>> So...? What "99% of motorists" honestly believe has no relevance to
>>> reality. We won't delve into your methods of interviewing 99% of
>>> motorists, but, if you haven't noticed, a great number of drivers
>>> place their minds in neutral when they slide behind the wheel.
>
>> So you are saying that in your limited, idiotic opinion that the 85th
>> percentile method, which has been repeatedly proven to be the best,
>> fairest, safest method for setting speed limits, is invalid?
>>
>> That tells me all I need to know in terms of making an informed
>> decision as to whether or not to bother reading the rest of your post.
>
> The difference is in the mindset. To an authoritarian, if authority said
> that drinking a vial of mercury was good for your health and made it the
> law to do so every week, then we must all do it. Both those who see
> themselves as the authority and those who just prefer to follow will come
> up with the same sort of logic. It doesn't matter what individuals think,
> it doesn't matter what the vast majority of individuals think is best for
> themselves, authority knows best.

No, what we're saying is that you gotta play by the rules to be on the
playground. If you don't, you get kicked off.

>
> The 85th percentile method lacks that rigid edict from above quality. The
> 85th percentile method is bottom up rather than top down. For someone
> looking for guidence from above, the 85th percentile method is bizzare,
> foreign, and scary. There isn't a comforting central control.

The 85th percentile is the standard method for setting speed limits. Take
that, factor in road conditions, cross streets, curves, and other influences
and you've got a speed limit.

---
jaybird

In article >, jaybird wrote:
>
> "Brent P" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> In article .com>, N8N
>> wrote:
>>> On Mar 20, 9:40 pm, "gpsman" > wrote:
>>
>>>> > 99.99% of motorists on the road who are not cops do HONESTLY believe
>>>> > that
>>>> > traffic tickets (especially speeding tickets) are mostly about
>>>> > money/revenue
>>>> > and have very little to do with safety.
>>
>>>> So...? What "99% of motorists" honestly believe has no relevance to
>>>> reality. We won't delve into your methods of interviewing 99% of
>>>> motorists, but, if you haven't noticed, a great number of drivers
>>>> place their minds in neutral when they slide behind the wheel.
>>
>>> So you are saying that in your limited, idiotic opinion that the 85th
>>> percentile method, which has been repeatedly proven to be the best,
>>> fairest, safest method for setting speed limits, is invalid?
>>>
>>> That tells me all I need to know in terms of making an informed
>>> decision as to whether or not to bother reading the rest of your post.
>>
>> The difference is in the mindset. To an authoritarian, if authority said
>> that drinking a vial of mercury was good for your health and made it the
>> law to do so every week, then we must all do it. Both those who see
>> themselves as the authority and those who just prefer to follow will come
>> up with the same sort of logic. It doesn't matter what individuals think,
>> it doesn't matter what the vast majority of individuals think is best for
>> themselves, authority knows best.
>
> No, what we're saying is that you gotta play by the rules to be on the
> playground. If you don't, you get kicked off.

Despite your 'no' in the front, your statement is the authoritarian view.
One where people have to obey rules regardless of wether they make sense
or not, regardless if nearly everyone thinks they don't and doesn't obey.

>> The 85th percentile method lacks that rigid edict from above quality. The
>> 85th percentile method is bottom up rather than top down. For someone
>> looking for guidence from above, the 85th percentile method is bizzare,
>> foreign, and scary. There isn't a comforting central control.

> The 85th percentile is the standard method for setting speed limits. Take
> that, factor in road conditions, cross streets, curves, and other influences
> and you've got a speed limit.

Yet, you'd enforce pulled-out-of-the-ass speed limits where 99.99% of
drivers are exceeding it.

Let me put it this way jaybird, when I drive the posted speed limit on
just about any road, old ladies passing me is pretty common. And by old I
mean 80+ years old. Sure, they accelerate slower than slow, but once I
top out at the speed limit they catch up and pass me.

On Mar 21, 11:35 am, "gpsman" > wrote:
> On Mar 21, 10:08 am, "N8N" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 20, 9:40 pm, "gpsman" > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 20, 6:28 pm, "Dave" > wrote:
>
> > > > > You believe that traffic tickets are about safety. That was the original
> > > > > intent, at least. Problem is, it was quickly recognized as a major cash
> > > > > cow. Now traffic tickets are MOST about revenue. Anybody who believes
> > > > > otherwise is wrong and naive. -Dave
>
> > > > Jaybird - I'd like to add to what I wrote earlier. I'm not trying to put
> > > > you down or insult you or argue against you here, but I really think you
> > > > need to understand something:
>
> > > > WHETHER RIGHT OR WRONG,
>
> > > > 99.99% of motorists on the road who are not cops do HONESTLY believe that
> > > > traffic tickets (especially speeding tickets) are mostly about money/revenue
> > > > and have very little to do with safety.
>
> > > So...? What "99% of motorists" honestly believe has no relevance to
> > > reality. We won't delve into your methods of interviewing 99% of
> > > motorists, but, if you haven't noticed, a great number of drivers
> > > place their minds in neutral when they slide behind the wheel.
>
> > So you are saying that in your limited, idiotic opinion that the 85th
> > percentile method, which has been repeatedly proven to be the best,
> > fairest, safest method for setting speed limits, is invalid?
>
> Where did I say that? Where has anybody ever said that (except here,
> of course)?!
>
> Where is the evidence that speed limits are -not- set according to the
> 85th percentile **and the associated criteria**? I know it exists in
> the minds of idiots, but where is there a reputable source?

You can't find it. Why? the required speed surveys are either not
done, or not done correctly. I actually did attempt a few years ago
to find data from the state of MD on this subject, and was unable to
find a human being at the SHA that actually understood what I was
requesting.

Notable exception: Arif has been able to locate speed surveys for
some roads in WV, and they sort-of support the assertion that speed
limits are not set according to the 85th. I say sort-of because while
in many cases the speed limit was lower than the 85th percentile
speed, it was not *significantly* lower. However, keep in mind that
WV has a 70 MPH state MSL and also even its Interstates are generally
hillier and curvier than those elsewhere on the East Coast, so actual
travel speeds would be lower.

I think you can imagine what happens when those same drivers travel on
a "better" Interstate with a 55 or 65 MPH speed limit. Personal
observation should make this obvious; at 10 over one is generally not
quite keeping up.

nate

>> The 85th percentile method lacks that rigid edict from above quality. The
>> 85th percentile method is bottom up rather than top down. For someone
>> looking for guidence from above, the 85th percentile method is bizzare,
>> foreign, and scary. There isn't a comforting central control.
>
> The 85th percentile is the standard method for setting speed limits. Take
> that, factor in road conditions, cross streets, curves, and other
> influences and you've got a speed limit.
>
> ---
> jaybird

The 85th percentile INCLUDES all factors such as road conditions, cross
streets, curves and other influences. When dangers (real dangers, not "we
think people drive too fast past OUR house, but it's OK if we drive fast
past THEIR house") exist, drivers DO slow down. If you adjust the 85th
based on other factors, you end up with the 20th percentile speed or the
10th percentile speed or (apparently) you usually end up at the ZERO
percentile speed. -Dave

> I think you can imagine what happens when those same drivers travel on
> a "better" Interstate with a 55 or 65 MPH speed limit. Personal
> observation should make this obvious; at 10 over one is generally not
> quite keeping up.
>
> nate
>

Not quite keeping up? At only 10 over, all other traffic blows by me fast
enough to suck my doors off. -Dave