low break pedal, non-working parking break - self-adjusters not working?

Hi there,

This is about a Mazda 626 '91.

What I realized recently is that the break pedal has to be pressed
quite low to work. In addition, the parking break pretty much does not
break at all anymore.

All break pads were replaced about 20K ago, so they should not be that
worn out. I recall now that the parking break effect declined
continuously and did not experience much boost when the pads were
replaced.

I checked the break pedal behaviour, it is not really spongy, just
low, and rather consistent at that.

I tried to break few times while driving backward, that did not seem
to affect the height of the pedal.

My question is if all this is consistent with the self-adjusters stuck
in some position. Now, is there any way to turn them manually without
taking apart the drums, just the wheels?

I read somewhere that there are screws one can turn from outside the
drums, is that a viable option?

Thanks!
Mike

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi there,
>
> This is about a Mazda 626 '91.
>
> What I realized recently is that the break pedal has to be pressed
> quite low to work. In addition, the parking break pretty much does not
> break at all anymore.
>
> All break pads were replaced about 20K ago, so they should not be that
> worn out. I recall now that the parking break effect declined
> continuously and did not experience much boost when the pads were
> replaced.
>
> I checked the break pedal behaviour, it is not really spongy, just
> low, and rather consistent at that.
>
> I tried to break few times while driving backward, that did not seem
> to affect the height of the pedal.
>
> My question is if all this is consistent with the self-adjusters stuck
> in some position. Now, is there any way to turn them manually without
> taking apart the drums, just the wheels?
>
> I read somewhere that there are screws one can turn from outside the
> drums, is that a viable option?
>
> Thanks!
> Mike

Yes... you will need a screwdriver, or if you have the tool to adjust
the rear brakes, use that, but a screwdriver will work just as well...you
want to adjust the rear brakes so that there is a slight drag on the wheel
as you turn the drum. If by chance you DON"T have access to this thru the
back of the wheel (the backing plate), then chances are you will need to
adjust the parking brake lever itself. To do this, you will need to take
off the console cover that sits around the parking brake lever and in the
back of that is the adjustment. All you need to do here is take up the
slack in the cable by loosening one of the nuts and turning the other one so
that the cable gets tighter, then once you have adjusted it properly,
tighten the other nut so that they stay put.
As far as the front brakes are concerned, you make no mention as to how
good a pad you replaced them with, if it was you who did the work, if you
turned the rotors at the same time, etc....if you replaced them with cheap
pads, chances are they may need it again. it also depends on what type of
driver you are. Do you hear a grinding noise when you press on the brake
pedal? if so, then it is time to replace the pads once again. If not, then
chances are they are worn, and then you will need to check to see how much
brake fluid there is in the reservoir. I am willing to bet that the fluid
is on the low side and just needs topping off. When the brakes wear, the
piston inside the caliper moves out further which in turn makes more room
for the brake fluid to take up. Once you replace the pads with new ones and
have to push the piston back, you will find the master cylinder fluid holder
will fill up with more fluid.

Good Luck..

Fwed

wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> This is about a Mazda 626 '91.
>
> What I realized recently is that the break



<snip persistent mis-spellings>


"Brake", sir, not "break".

Your car has "brakes".

On 20 Dec 2005 18:11:19 -0800, wrote:

>Hi there,
>
>This is about a Mazda 626 '91.
>
> What I realized recently is that the break pedal has to be pressed
>quite low to work. In addition, the parking break pretty much does not
>break at all anymore.
>
> All break pads were replaced about 20K ago, so they should not be that
>worn out. I recall now that the parking break effect declined
>continuously and did not experience much boost when the pads were
>replaced.
>
> I checked the break pedal behaviour, it is not really spongy, just
>low, and rather consistent at that.
>
> I tried to break few times while driving backward, that did not seem
>to affect the height of the pedal.
>
> My question is if all this is consistent with the self-adjusters stuck
>in some position. Now, is there any way to turn them manually without
>taking apart the drums, just the wheels?
>
> I read somewhere that there are screws one can turn from outside the
>drums, is that a viable option?
>
> Thanks!
> Mike



I'd recommend that you take the car back to the shop that installed the
brakes.

These brakes (rear) adjust by use of the parking brake, not by brake
application in reverse.

Sounds like the rear brakes were installed incorrectly or something has
failed in the self adjuster mechanism.

Make sure that the parking brake gets adjusted when the brakes are repaired
and always use the parking brake when parked to keep the brakes adjusted.

Good luck


--

Dave in Columbus

Thanks! This is all solid info!

So I gather that the rear brakes most likely can be adjusted, together
with the parking brake.

The front brakes, on the other hand, are not so simple. From what I
know, there are leaks in both front calipers, since the fluid needs to
be added from time to time. That could've worn out the pads sooner,
although I do not hear any noises coming from them. I have no idea
which ones were installed, and that happened in a different city :-(

What I am still puzzled about is this. Can the added volume in caliper
cylinders require the pedal to go this much lower? Or is there some
other variable?

Thanks!
Mike


fweddybear wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Hi there,
> >
> > This is about a Mazda 626 '91.
> >
> > What I realized recently is that the break pedal has to be pressed
> > quite low to work. In addition, the parking break pretty much does not
> > break at all anymore.
> >
> > All break pads were replaced about 20K ago, so they should not be that
> > worn out. I recall now that the parking break effect declined
> > continuously and did not experience much boost when the pads were
> > replaced.
> >
> > I checked the break pedal behaviour, it is not really spongy, just
> > low, and rather consistent at that.
> >
> > I tried to break few times while driving backward, that did not seem
> > to affect the height of the pedal.
> >
> > My question is if all this is consistent with the self-adjusters stuck
> > in some position. Now, is there any way to turn them manually without
> > taking apart the drums, just the wheels?
> >
> > I read somewhere that there are screws one can turn from outside the
> > drums, is that a viable option?
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Mike
>
> Yes... you will need a screwdriver, or if you have the tool to adjust
> the rear brakes, use that, but a screwdriver will work just as well...you
> want to adjust the rear brakes so that there is a slight drag on the wheel
> as you turn the drum. If by chance you DON"T have access to this thru the
> back of the wheel (the backing plate), then chances are you will need to
> adjust the parking brake lever itself. To do this, you will need to take
> off the console cover that sits around the parking brake lever and in the
> back of that is the adjustment. All you need to do here is take up the
> slack in the cable by loosening one of the nuts and turning the other one so
> that the cable gets tighter, then once you have adjusted it properly,
> tighten the other nut so that they stay put.
> As far as the front brakes are concerned, you make no mention as to how
> good a pad you replaced them with, if it was you who did the work, if you
> turned the rotors at the same time, etc....if you replaced them with cheap
> pads, chances are they may need it again. it also depends on what type of
> driver you are. Do you hear a grinding noise when you press on the brake
> pedal? if so, then it is time to replace the pads once again. If not, then
> chances are they are worn, and then you will need to check to see how much
> brake fluid there is in the reservoir. I am willing to bet that the fluid
> is on the low side and just needs topping off. When the brakes wear, the
> piston inside the caliper moves out further which in turn makes more room
> for the brake fluid to take up. Once you replace the pads with new ones and
> have to push the piston back, you will find the master cylinder fluid holder
> will fill up with more fluid.
>
> Good Luck..
>
> Fwed

I am going to guess your rear shoes are worn out to the point of fluid
seeping out the cylinders which is why you need to add fluid. I don't
get 20K on a set of rear shoes. My last ones were paper thin at 12K.

I would be doing a physical inspection of them before trying to adjust
them.

You should 'never' have to adjust the emergency brake cable after it is
installed. The adjustment for the e-brake is the rear pad adjustment,
the cable adjuster is just for initial setup.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/in...?id=2120343242
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

wrote:
>
> Hi there,
>
> This is about a Mazda 626 '91.
>
> What I realized recently is that the break pedal has to be pressed
> quite low to work. In addition, the parking break pretty much does not
> break at all anymore.
>
> All break pads were replaced about 20K ago, so they should not be that
> worn out. I recall now that the parking break effect declined
> continuously and did not experience much boost when the pads were
> replaced.
>
> I checked the break pedal behaviour, it is not really spongy, just
> low, and rather consistent at that.
>
> I tried to break few times while driving backward, that did not seem
> to affect the height of the pedal.
>
> My question is if all this is consistent with the self-adjusters stuck
> in some position. Now, is there any way to turn them manually without
> taking apart the drums, just the wheels?
>
> I read somewhere that there are screws one can turn from outside the
> drums, is that a viable option?
>
> Thanks!
> Mike

since you are losing fluid, that will definitely cause the brake pedal to go
lower....in fact if enough fluid leaks out, your brake pedal can go to the
floor causing it not to function.... I would check the bleeder valve on the
caliper (both calipers) to make sure they are closed... it almost sounds
like whoever did the job didn't tighten the bleeder valve very well after
they bled the brakes...
I would use serious caution while driving as you have a great chance of
getting into an accident if it isn't fixed...

Good Luck.

Fwed
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks! This is all solid info!
>
> So I gather that the rear brakes most likely can be adjusted, together
> with the parking brake.
>
> The front brakes, on the other hand, are not so simple. From what I
> know, there are leaks in both front calipers, since the fluid needs to
> be added from time to time. That could've worn out the pads sooner,
> although I do not hear any noises coming from them. I have no idea
> which ones were installed, and that happened in a different city :-(
>
> What I am still puzzled about is this. Can the added volume in caliper
> cylinders require the pedal to go this much lower? Or is there some
> other variable?
>
> Thanks!
> Mike
>
>
> fweddybear wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> > Hi there,
>> >
>> > This is about a Mazda 626 '91.
>> >
>> > What I realized recently is that the break pedal has to be pressed
>> > quite low to work. In addition, the parking break pretty much does not
>> > break at all anymore.
>> >
>> > All break pads were replaced about 20K ago, so they should not be that
>> > worn out. I recall now that the parking break effect declined
>> > continuously and did not experience much boost when the pads were
>> > replaced.
>> >
>> > I checked the break pedal behaviour, it is not really spongy, just
>> > low, and rather consistent at that.
>> >
>> > I tried to break few times while driving backward, that did not seem
>> > to affect the height of the pedal.
>> >
>> > My question is if all this is consistent with the self-adjusters stuck
>> > in some position. Now, is there any way to turn them manually without
>> > taking apart the drums, just the wheels?
>> >
>> > I read somewhere that there are screws one can turn from outside the
>> > drums, is that a viable option?
>> >
>> > Thanks!
>> > Mike
>>
>> Yes... you will need a screwdriver, or if you have the tool to adjust
>> the rear brakes, use that, but a screwdriver will work just as well...you
>> want to adjust the rear brakes so that there is a slight drag on the
>> wheel
>> as you turn the drum. If by chance you DON"T have access to this thru
>> the
>> back of the wheel (the backing plate), then chances are you will need to
>> adjust the parking brake lever itself. To do this, you will need to take
>> off the console cover that sits around the parking brake lever and in the
>> back of that is the adjustment. All you need to do here is take up the
>> slack in the cable by loosening one of the nuts and turning the other one
>> so
>> that the cable gets tighter, then once you have adjusted it properly,
>> tighten the other nut so that they stay put.
>> As far as the front brakes are concerned, you make no mention as to
>> how
>> good a pad you replaced them with, if it was you who did the work, if you
>> turned the rotors at the same time, etc....if you replaced them with
>> cheap
>> pads, chances are they may need it again. it also depends on what type
>> of
>> driver you are. Do you hear a grinding noise when you press on the brake
>> pedal? if so, then it is time to replace the pads once again. If not,
>> then
>> chances are they are worn, and then you will need to check to see how
>> much
>> brake fluid there is in the reservoir. I am willing to bet that the
>> fluid
>> is on the low side and just needs topping off. When the brakes wear, the
>> piston inside the caliper moves out further which in turn makes more room
>> for the brake fluid to take up. Once you replace the pads with new ones
>> and
>> have to push the piston back, you will find the master cylinder fluid
>> holder
>> will fill up with more fluid.
>>
>> Good Luck..
>>
>> Fwed
>

OK, I understand the concept of when there is no fluid, the brakes do
not work. But what is the mechanism for brakes to fail if there is
enough fluid is in the system? Also, how does this affect the pedal
height? If the leak is slow, it would act almost if there is no leak
.... Thus if the system was to be simply sealed, the pedal would still
be low ...

The reservoir has to be refilled about every 10 months, that is when
parking brake light goes on. The leak is rather slow and systematic.

Thanks!
Mike



fweddybear wrote:
> since you are losing fluid, that will definitely cause the brake pedal to go
> lower....in fact if enough fluid leaks out, your brake pedal can go to the
> floor causing it not to function.... I would check the bleeder valve on the
> caliper (both calipers) to make sure they are closed... it almost sounds
> like whoever did the job didn't tighten the bleeder valve very well after
> they bled the brakes...
> I would use serious caution while driving as you have a great chance of
> getting into an accident if it isn't fixed...
>
> Good Luck.
>
> Fwed
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Thanks! This is all solid info!
> >
> > So I gather that the rear brakes most likely can be adjusted, together
> > with the parking brake.
> >
> > The front brakes, on the other hand, are not so simple. From what I
> > know, there are leaks in both front calipers, since the fluid needs to
> > be added from time to time. That could've worn out the pads sooner,
> > although I do not hear any noises coming from them. I have no idea
> > which ones were installed, and that happened in a different city :-(
> >
> > What I am still puzzled about is this. Can the added volume in caliper
> > cylinders require the pedal to go this much lower? Or is there some
> > other variable?
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > fweddybear wrote:
> >> > wrote in message
> >> oups.com...
> >> > Hi there,
> >> >
> >> > This is about a Mazda 626 '91.
> >> >
> >> > What I realized recently is that the break pedal has to be pressed
> >> > quite low to work. In addition, the parking break pretty much does not
> >> > break at all anymore.
> >> >
> >> > All break pads were replaced about 20K ago, so they should not be that
> >> > worn out. I recall now that the parking break effect declined
> >> > continuously and did not experience much boost when the pads were
> >> > replaced.
> >> >
> >> > I checked the break pedal behaviour, it is not really spongy, just
> >> > low, and rather consistent at that.
> >> >
> >> > I tried to break few times while driving backward, that did not seem
> >> > to affect the height of the pedal.
> >> >
> >> > My question is if all this is consistent with the self-adjusters stuck
> >> > in some position. Now, is there any way to turn them manually without
> >> > taking apart the drums, just the wheels?
> >> >
> >> > I read somewhere that there are screws one can turn from outside the
> >> > drums, is that a viable option?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks!
> >> > Mike
> >>
> >> Yes... you will need a screwdriver, or if you have the tool to adjust
> >> the rear brakes, use that, but a screwdriver will work just as well...you
> >> want to adjust the rear brakes so that there is a slight drag on the
> >> wheel
> >> as you turn the drum. If by chance you DON"T have access to this thru
> >> the
> >> back of the wheel (the backing plate), then chances are you will need to
> >> adjust the parking brake lever itself. To do this, you will need to take
> >> off the console cover that sits around the parking brake lever and in the
> >> back of that is the adjustment. All you need to do here is take up the
> >> slack in the cable by loosening one of the nuts and turning the other one
> >> so
> >> that the cable gets tighter, then once you have adjusted it properly,
> >> tighten the other nut so that they stay put.
> >> As far as the front brakes are concerned, you make no mention as to
> >> how
> >> good a pad you replaced them with, if it was you who did the work, if you
> >> turned the rotors at the same time, etc....if you replaced them with
> >> cheap
> >> pads, chances are they may need it again. it also depends on what type
> >> of
> >> driver you are. Do you hear a grinding noise when you press on the brake
> >> pedal? if so, then it is time to replace the pads once again. If not,
> >> then
> >> chances are they are worn, and then you will need to check to see how
> >> much
> >> brake fluid there is in the reservoir. I am willing to bet that the
> >> fluid
> >> is on the low side and just needs topping off. When the brakes wear, the
> >> piston inside the caliper moves out further which in turn makes more room
> >> for the brake fluid to take up. Once you replace the pads with new ones
> >> and
> >> have to push the piston back, you will find the master cylinder fluid
> >> holder
> >> will fill up with more fluid.
> >>
> >> Good Luck..
> >>
> >> Fwed
> >

Thank you, Sir!

May I have another?

Unfortunately, I did not get to go to all kinds of places like Oxfords
and Cambridges, and thus may lack full scale training in *very* proper
English! :-)

Mike

Slow leaks have a nasty tendency to become fast leaks at the worst time,
like in a panic stop. You have no emergency brake, that means you
crash.

An overextended wheel cylinder piston will leak slow for a while, then
blow out fast.

A rust hole in a line will leak slow for a while, then blow out fast.

A bad seal on a wheel cylinder will leak slow, then blow out fast.

A worn out back brake system will extend the piston for a leak and make
the emergency brake not work and give you a low pedal....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/in...?id=2120343242
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

wrote:
>
> OK, I understand the concept of when there is no fluid, the brakes do
> not work. But what is the mechanism for brakes to fail if there is
> enough fluid is in the system? Also, how does this affect the pedal
> height? If the leak is slow, it would act almost if there is no leak
> ... Thus if the system was to be simply sealed, the pedal would still
> be low ...
>
> The reservoir has to be refilled about every 10 months, that is when
> parking brake light goes on. The leak is rather slow and systematic.
>
> Thanks!
> Mike
>
> fweddybear wrote:
> > since you are losing fluid, that will definitely cause the brake pedal to go
> > lower....in fact if enough fluid leaks out, your brake pedal can go to the
> > floor causing it not to function.... I would check the bleeder valve on the
> > caliper (both calipers) to make sure they are closed... it almost sounds
> > like whoever did the job didn't tighten the bleeder valve very well after
> > they bled the brakes...
> > I would use serious caution while driving as you have a great chance of
> > getting into an accident if it isn't fixed...
> >
> > Good Luck.
> >
> > Fwed
> > > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > > Thanks! This is all solid info!
> > >
> > > So I gather that the rear brakes most likely can be adjusted, together
> > > with the parking brake.
> > >
> > > The front brakes, on the other hand, are not so simple. From what I
> > > know, there are leaks in both front calipers, since the fluid needs to
> > > be added from time to time. That could've worn out the pads sooner,
> > > although I do not hear any noises coming from them. I have no idea
> > > which ones were installed, and that happened in a different city :-(
> > >
> > > What I am still puzzled about is this. Can the added volume in caliper
> > > cylinders require the pedal to go this much lower? Or is there some
> > > other variable?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > fweddybear wrote:
> > >> > wrote in message
> > >> oups.com...
> > >> > Hi there,
> > >> >
> > >> > This is about a Mazda 626 '91.
> > >> >
> > >> > What I realized recently is that the break pedal has to be pressed
> > >> > quite low to work. In addition, the parking break pretty much does not
> > >> > break at all anymore.
> > >> >
> > >> > All break pads were replaced about 20K ago, so they should not be that
> > >> > worn out. I recall now that the parking break effect declined
> > >> > continuously and did not experience much boost when the pads were
> > >> > replaced.
> > >> >
> > >> > I checked the break pedal behaviour, it is not really spongy, just
> > >> > low, and rather consistent at that.
> > >> >
> > >> > I tried to break few times while driving backward, that did not seem
> > >> > to affect the height of the pedal.
> > >> >
> > >> > My question is if all this is consistent with the self-adjusters stuck
> > >> > in some position. Now, is there any way to turn them manually without
> > >> > taking apart the drums, just the wheels?
> > >> >
> > >> > I read somewhere that there are screws one can turn from outside the
> > >> > drums, is that a viable option?
> > >> >
> > >> > Thanks!
> > >> > Mike
> > >>
> > >> Yes... you will need a screwdriver, or if you have the tool to adjust
> > >> the rear brakes, use that, but a screwdriver will work just as well...you
> > >> want to adjust the rear brakes so that there is a slight drag on the
> > >> wheel
> > >> as you turn the drum. If by chance you DON"T have access to this thru
> > >> the
> > >> back of the wheel (the backing plate), then chances are you will need to
> > >> adjust the parking brake lever itself. To do this, you will need to take
> > >> off the console cover that sits around the parking brake lever and in the
> > >> back of that is the adjustment. All you need to do here is take up the
> > >> slack in the cable by loosening one of the nuts and turning the other one
> > >> so
> > >> that the cable gets tighter, then once you have adjusted it properly,
> > >> tighten the other nut so that they stay put.
> > >> As far as the front brakes are concerned, you make no mention as to
> > >> how
> > >> good a pad you replaced them with, if it was you who did the work, if you
> > >> turned the rotors at the same time, etc....if you replaced them with
> > >> cheap
> > >> pads, chances are they may need it again. it also depends on what type
> > >> of
> > >> driver you are. Do you hear a grinding noise when you press on the brake
> > >> pedal? if so, then it is time to replace the pads once again. If not,
> > >> then
> > >> chances are they are worn, and then you will need to check to see how
> > >> much
> > >> brake fluid there is in the reservoir. I am willing to bet that the
> > >> fluid
> > >> is on the low side and just needs topping off. When the brakes wear, the
> > >> piston inside the caliper moves out further which in turn makes more room
> > >> for the brake fluid to take up. Once you replace the pads with new ones
> > >> and
> > >> have to push the piston back, you will find the master cylinder fluid
> > >> holder
> > >> will fill up with more fluid.
> > >>
> > >> Good Luck..
> > >>
> > >> Fwed
> > >