Prius (or other hybrids) in -40

I'm curious to see how Priuses and/or other hybrids did and are doing
during this cold snap. What's the heat like? What's the fuel economy
like? How far can you go at -30 before the gas engine kicks in?

Ray
(freezing his butt off in Winnipeg.)

ray wrote:
> I'm curious to see how Priuses and/or other hybrids did and are doing
> during this cold snap. What's the heat like? What's the fuel economy
> like? How far can you go at -30 before the gas engine kicks in?
>
> Ray
> (freezing his butt off in Winnipeg.)


Yeah, the heat thing worries me too. I remember the VW beetles. My dad
put a gasoline heater in his. I suppose it would be ironic to put a
gasoline heater in an electric. At least in a hybrid you do get some
heat from the cooling system when the IC engine does run. However, if
they make the plug-in hybrid, I doubt if there is enough heat from
discharging batteries to do much to heat the car. Even putting comfort
aside, heat is needed for defrosting windshield.

Also, in metro areas here, they use a lot of salt on road. So when you
drive around, the windshield gets white with salt, and you need to use
wipers a lot. The wiper fluid is not good for the temps in this area
and the stuff freezes on an unheated windshield. My Neon is a bit slow
warming up and I cannot use washers until I get some heat for defrost.


Actually, the temp gauge comes up as fast as in our minivan, but I have
to use the defroster more. I am attributing it to the more laid back
windshield, whereas our van is more of an upright windshield. I suspect
the airflow over the windshield of the Neon makes for more "efficient"
air cooling, and I have to run defrost harder. Anyone else in cold
climates with car with raked windshields notice anything like this?

Don Stauffer wrote:
> ray wrote:
>> I'm curious to see how Priuses and/or other hybrids did and are doing
>> during this cold snap. What's the heat like? What's the fuel economy
>> like? How far can you go at -30 before the gas engine kicks in?
>>
>> Ray
>> (freezing his butt off in Winnipeg.)
>
>
> Yeah, the heat thing worries me too. I remember the VW beetles. My dad
> put a gasoline heater in his. I suppose it would be ironic to put a
> gasoline heater in an electric. At least in a hybrid you do get some
> heat from the cooling system when the IC engine does run. However, if
> they make the plug-in hybrid, I doubt if there is enough heat from
> discharging batteries to do much to heat the car. Even putting comfort
> aside, heat is needed for defrosting windshield.
>
> Also, in metro areas here, they use a lot of salt on road. So when you
> drive around, the windshield gets white with salt, and you need to use
> wipers a lot. The wiper fluid is not good for the temps in this area
> and the stuff freezes on an unheated windshield. My Neon is a bit slow
> warming up and I cannot use washers until I get some heat for defrost.
>
>
> Actually, the temp gauge comes up as fast as in our minivan, but I have
> to use the defroster more. I am attributing it to the more laid back
> windshield, whereas our van is more of an upright windshield. I suspect
> the airflow over the windshield of the Neon makes for more "efficient"
> air cooling, and I have to run defrost harder. Anyone else in cold
> climates with car with raked windshields notice anything like this?

From what I have read from owners and heard from the ones who actually
will tell you they have problems with their cars. They have a nasty
habit of getting stuck on inclines if the surface is slick. Seems that
the traction control works too well. The cars just STOP moving.

The hardest part is finding owners who will admit that there are
problems. Most act like Sargent Schultz, I See NOTHING.....


--
Steve W.

On Jan 16, 12:30*pm, "Steve W." > wrote:
> Don Stauffer wrote:
> > ray wrote:
> >> I'm curious to see how Priuses and/or other hybrids did and are doing
> >> during this cold snap. *What's the heat like? *What's the fuel economy
> >> like? *How far can you go at -30 before the gas engine kicks in?
>
> >> Ray
> >> (freezing his butt off in Winnipeg.)
>
> > Yeah, the heat thing worries me too. I remember the VW beetles. *My dad
> > put a gasoline heater in his. *I suppose it would be ironic to put a
> > gasoline heater in an electric. *At least in a hybrid you do get some
> > heat from the cooling system when the IC engine does run. *However, if
> > they make the plug-in hybrid, I doubt if there is enough heat from
> > discharging batteries to do much to heat the car. *Even putting comfort
> > aside, heat is needed for defrosting windshield.
>
> > Also, in metro areas here, they use a lot of salt on road. *So when you
> > drive around, the windshield gets white with salt, and you need to use
> > wipers a lot. *The wiper fluid is not good for the temps in this area
> > and the stuff freezes on an unheated windshield. *My Neon is a bit slow
> > warming up and I cannot use washers until I get some heat for defrost.
>
> > Actually, the temp gauge comes up as fast as in our minivan, but I have
> > to use the defroster more. I am attributing it to the more laid back
> > windshield, whereas our van is more of an upright windshield. *I suspect
> > the airflow over the windshield of the Neon makes for more "efficient"
> > air cooling, and I have to run defrost harder. *Anyone else in cold
> > climates with car with raked windshields notice anything like this?
>
> From what I have read from owners and heard from the ones who actually
> will tell you they have problems with their cars. They have a nasty
> habit of getting stuck on inclines if the surface is slick. Seems that
> the traction control works too well. The cars just STOP moving.
>
> The hardest part is finding owners who will admit that there are
> problems. Most act like Sargent Schultz, I See NOTHING.....
>
> --
> Steve W.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Well, I thought I'd heard that Prii had Goodyear Integrity tires as
OEM, which means that all the traction control in the world won't
help. I *thought* I'd driven on some bad tires before, but the
Integritys are so utterly and completely tractionless that they ought
to be illegal. That's not hyperbole, they're ****ing dangerous. I'm
surprised at Toyota, I expect that kind of irresponsible bean-counting
from GM, but typically foreign mfgrs. tend to equip their vehicles
with quality tires like Michelin.

nate

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:30:16 -0500, "Steve W." >
wrote:

>Don Stauffer wrote:
>> ray wrote:
>>> I'm curious to see how Priuses and/or other hybrids did and are doing
>>> during this cold snap. What's the heat like? What's the fuel economy
>>> like? How far can you go at -30 before the gas engine kicks in?
>>>
>>> Ray
>>> (freezing his butt off in Winnipeg.)
>>
>>
>> Yeah, the heat thing worries me too. I remember the VW beetles. My dad
>> put a gasoline heater in his. I suppose it would be ironic to put a
>> gasoline heater in an electric. At least in a hybrid you do get some
>> heat from the cooling system when the IC engine does run. However, if
>> they make the plug-in hybrid, I doubt if there is enough heat from
>> discharging batteries to do much to heat the car. Even putting comfort
>> aside, heat is needed for defrosting windshield.
>>
>> Also, in metro areas here, they use a lot of salt on road. So when you
>> drive around, the windshield gets white with salt, and you need to use
>> wipers a lot. The wiper fluid is not good for the temps in this area
>> and the stuff freezes on an unheated windshield. My Neon is a bit slow
>> warming up and I cannot use washers until I get some heat for defrost.
>>
>>
>> Actually, the temp gauge comes up as fast as in our minivan, but I have
>> to use the defroster more. I am attributing it to the more laid back
>> windshield, whereas our van is more of an upright windshield. I suspect
>> the airflow over the windshield of the Neon makes for more "efficient"
>> air cooling, and I have to run defrost harder. Anyone else in cold
>> climates with car with raked windshields notice anything like this?
>
>From what I have read from owners and heard from the ones who actually
>will tell you they have problems with their cars. They have a nasty
>habit of getting stuck on inclines if the surface is slick. Seems that
>the traction control works too well. The cars just STOP moving.
>
>The hardest part is finding owners who will admit that there are
>problems. Most act like Sargent Schultz, I See NOTHING.....


I read a thread talking about that issue and it wasn't so much
traction control as a design implementation to prevent over spinning
the motor. Supposedly it's designed so you simply cannot spin the
tires on slick surfaces so you are SOL in some winter weather.

"N8N" > wrote in message news:9cc4497b-6d0f-4859-b836-
Well, I thought I'd heard that Prii had Goodyear Integrity tires as
OEM, which means that all the traction control in the world won't
help. I *thought* I'd driven on some bad tires before, but the
Integritys are so utterly and completely tractionless that they ought
to be illegal. That's not hyperbole, they're ****ing dangerous. I'm
surprised at Toyota, I expect that kind of irresponsible bean-counting
from GM, but typically foreign mfgrs. tend to equip their vehicles
with quality tires like Michelin.

nate

That is a good point.
I have had problems on steep cobblestone streets when they are frozen solid,
even with pretty decent tires.

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:53:36 -0800 (PST), N8N >
wrote:

-
>
>Well, I thought I'd heard that Prii had Goodyear Integrity tires as
>OEM, which means that all the traction control in the world won't
>help. I *thought* I'd driven on some bad tires before, but the
>Integritys are so utterly and completely tractionless that they ought
>to be illegal. That's not hyperbole, they're ****ing dangerous. I'm
>surprised at Toyota, I expect that kind of irresponsible bean-counting
>from GM, but typically foreign mfgrs. tend to equip their vehicles
>with quality tires like Michelin.
>
>nate

I suspect the problem with the tires is that the Prius design criteria
calls for low rolling resistance tires to improve mileage at the
expence of traction.

HLS wrote:
>
> "N8N" > wrote in message news:9cc4497b-6d0f-4859-b836-
> Well, I thought I'd heard that Prii had Goodyear Integrity tires as
> OEM, which means that all the traction control in the world won't
> help. I *thought* I'd driven on some bad tires before, but the
> Integritys are so utterly and completely tractionless that they ought
> to be illegal. That's not hyperbole, they're ****ing dangerous. I'm
> surprised at Toyota, I expect that kind of irresponsible bean-counting
> from GM, but typically foreign mfgrs. tend to equip their vehicles
> with quality tires like Michelin.
>
> nate
>
> That is a good point.
> I have had problems on steep cobblestone streets when they are frozen
> solid,
> even with pretty decent tires.
>

The problem on the Prius ISN'T just the tires. The traction control
senses ANY slippage and it applies the brakes to stop the slippage.
Continued slippage results in the engine shutting down.

http://www.priuschat.com/forums/priu...s-rise-10.html

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...us_winter.html

http://www.leftlanenews.com/overzeal...k-in-snow.html
"Some owners of Toyota’s Prius hybrid are reporting having problems
getting moving in snow due to the car’s aggressive and permanent
traction control system.

“When my car is on any kind of slick surface that causes one of the
front wheels to slip, all power to the drive system is stopped,” Prius
owner Christopher of Reston, Virginia told ConsumerAffairs.

He said his first experience with the problem was “on a sloped gravel
driveway in July but [i] discounted it as a temporary thing.”

When snow fell, the problem became apparent. “This past weekend I was on
a snow-covered road with about an 8- to 10-degree grade. Driving at 20
miles per hour, one tire began to slip on the snow and the car came to a
stop. The wheels then refused to engage, because one would slip a
little, regardless of throttle position,” he wrote.

Christopher said he “had cable style tire chains and installed them
properly on the front wheels and tried again. Still, a tire would slip
on the 4 or 5 inches between the cables and the car would refuse to move.”

Toyota insists the system works as intended, and spokesman Bill Kwon
believes without it, drivers would still be stuck.

“A vehicle without TRAC in those conditions,” Kwon said. “would probably
just start spinning in place and eventually spin out of control. In my
opinion, it’s better to have the vehicle stop then to have the wheels
spinning and out of control.”


From http://www.topix.com/forum/autos/toy...AJ2MD8SQFDUO2F

"Four of us just returned from a short road trip to the Canadian border
in Northern Minnesota. I had some doubts about Prius handling in snow
and ice and they were justified. When we bought the '05 model used (18
thousand miles or so), it had low-profile tires which I plan to change
to stock wheels and tires. I blame much of the car's inability to
navigate through light snow deeper than three inches on the tires, but I
also felt that the continuous drive was doggy at low speeds, when
accelerating from a stop, and lacked overall sensitivity. After driving
about 150 miles on icy highways, I also concluded that the car's light
weight and weight distribution hampered it's ability to track straight
without fish-tailing slightly with every small ice ridge in the road.
Again, much of this was likely due to the miserable tires (a Michelin
low-profile tire), Even with stock wheels and good standard-sized tires,
however, this is clearly not a car designed to perform competently on
icy roads or in even light snow. One trip only was a charm for me. The
engine block heater that I had installed before the trip, however,
worked great when the morning temperature dipped below -20 degrees."





--
Steve W.

On 2009-01-16, Don Stauffer > wrote:

| I suppose it would be ironic to put a gasoline heater in an
| electric.

It certainly is, but that's what they do -- the pure electrics I've
seen (granted, very few of them, and it's been several years) all had
a small gasoline tank for the gas heater.

--
Doug McLaren,
"The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the
lightning ain't distributed right." -- Mark Twain