I don't like electric assist stearing.

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
> In article k.net>,
> grinder > wrote:
>> > Could be. Most of the reports I've read when changing from OEM run
>> > flats to 'conventional' suggest comfort is the main gain.
>> >
>
>> Read the post from E Brown. Also when I went to conventional over ride
>> flats on my Mini S the handling improved dramatically AND the noise
>> difference was huge. It was like going from a go-cart to a limo.
>
> So the handling went from excellent to dreadful?
>

I will make this as simple as I possibly can:

1. I replaced ride flat tires with conventional tires on my Mini S.
2. The handling improved dramatically. This includes a smoother ride that
handled rough stretches better and cornering.
3. There was a huge reduction in noise. The noise reduction was comparable
to going from a go-cart to a limo.

Hope this clears everything up for you and hopefully you can figure it out
without pictures.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

>In article >,
> > wrote:
>> Missed the start of this but I have just test driven a 2006 E65 7
>> Series. The steering is very light but positive. At low speeds it's a
>> kin to Jaguar XJ but at higher speeds it does stiffen up slightly and is
>> nice but going from my E38 to the E65 takes getting used to and moving
>> back to the large (by comparison) steering wheel of the E38 and heavier
>> steering makes me want to go back to the dealer and say "I'll take it".
>
>BMW of course stuck with steering boxes on their larger cars long after
>the rest of the world went to R&P. Something to do with our US cousins not
>liking too positive steering on this sort of vehicle, IIRC.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall that Mercedes held out even
longer.

grinder wrote:
> "E28 Guy©" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>>On Mar 16, 9:19 am, "grinder" > wrote:
>>
>>>"Fred W" > wrote in message
>>>
om...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>grinder wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"Fred W" > wrote in message
>>>>>news:9dKdnYfdSY2H62TYnZ2dnUVZ_qfinZ2d@comcast .com...
>>
>>>>How to reduce understeer (or induce oversteer if taken far enough):
>>>
>>>>Increase front tire pressure
>>>>Decrease Rear tire pressure
>>>>Shave Front tires (decrease tread depth)
>>>>Wider Front Tires
>>>>Narrower Rear Tires
>>>>Make Front Camber more Negative
>>>>Make Front Caster more Positive
>>>>Reduce Front Toe-in
>>>>Softer front swap bar
>>>>Stiffer rear sway Bar
>>>>Soften front springs
>>>>Stiffen rear springs
>>>>Softer front shocks
>>>>Stiffer rear shocks
>>>
>>>Actually my first step will be to change tires away from run flats. The
>>>softer sidewall will provide better traction. The second choice will be
>>>to
>>>put a STIFFER roll bar (25mm) on the front AND a softer (22mm) on the
>>>rear.
>>
>>Reread what Fred wrote because he's absolutely correct. *Your*
>>proposed antiroll bar changes on the car will simply aggravate your
>>problem. Hopefully, the sheer number of those of us pointing this out
>>will convince you.
>>
>>If, OTOH, you are a sworn Disciple of the Denizens of Dinan, give them
>>the list of suggested changes above and ask them about it. I've met
>>(actually, 'had dinner with') Steve and he's not an idiot. Although
>>he'd love for you to buy a whole suspension package from him, I don't
>>think he'd lie to you about the effect of those simple changes on
>>understeer/oversteer. If you want a more tailored approach, you might
>>contact my old pal, T.C. Kline, since he's done a lot with the Z4 in
>>the past few years. You can tell him I sent you.
>>--
>>C.R. Krieger
>>(Knows they all understeer)
>>
>
>
> Next time you have dinner with Steve ask him to clear up his web site which
> states:
> "adds larger and adjustable front and rear anti-roll bars to reduce body
> roll for superior handling. The adjustable anti-roll bars provide the
> ability to fine-tune the system for closer to neutral balance reducing
> understeer. "
>
> You may also ask him to tell his engineers not to suggest roll bars to help
> reduce understeer.
>
>

Considering what he says: Yes, increasing the size of both the front
and rear roll bars (aka stabilizer bars, sway bars, etc.) will reduce
body lean. However it will not improve understeer unless the rear sway
bar is increased more than the front.

--
-Fred W

grinder wrote:
> "Fred W" > wrote in message
> news >
>>grinder wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Actually my first step will be to change tires away from run flats. The
>>>softer sidewall will provide better traction. The second choice will be
>>>to put a STIFFER roll bar (25mm) on the front AND a softer (22mm) on the
>>>rear.
>>>
>>>http://www.dinancars.com/Series.asp?...%20Tuning#1665
>>
>>If you do, it will increase the understeer.
>>
>>--
>>-Fred W
>
>
> Not if selected and adjusted correctly.
>
>

No, I'm sorry you are just wrong. Regardless of how you "select" them,
if you increase the stiffness of the front sway bar you will increase
the amount of understeer. If you decrease the stiffness of the rear
sway bar you will increase the understeer. If you do both you will
*really* increase the understeer.

You have it exactly backwards to what you want to do. For what you want
(decrease understeer or introduce oversteer) you need to stiffen the
rear and/or soften the front.

--
-Fred W

grinder wrote:
>
>
> Now for the last time let's say this together "it's a matter of degree!"
> The difference between the balance of my Mini S and my Z4 allows me to
> corner better in the Mini.
>
>
>

You are comparing tangerines and kumquats. The mini is a super-light
front wheel drive car. It is a veritable go-cart compared to the Z4.
The Z4 will NEVER handle like a mini.

--
-Fred W

grinder wrote:
>
>
> I don't intend on using them INCORRECTLY.

Um, yes, actually you do intend to use them incorrectly. Exactly
incorrectly to be precise.

--
-Fred W

JRE wrote:
> grinder wrote:
>
>> Next time you have dinner with Steve ask him to clear up his web site
>> which states:
>> "adds larger and adjustable front and rear anti-roll bars to reduce
>> body roll for superior handling. The adjustable anti-roll bars provide
>> the ability to fine-tune the system for closer to neutral balance
>> reducing understeer. "
>>
>> You may also ask him to tell his engineers not to suggest roll bars to
>> help reduce understeer.
>
>
> Dinan's website is doubtless correct. It's your interpretation that's
> wrong. Relatively stiffer front bars will increase understeer.
> Relatively less stiff front bars will decrease it.
>
> Since nothing comes for free, decreasing the stiffness of the front bar
> by itself will also increase body roll.
>
> JRE

Exactly. So the premium option (after first ditching the bling-bling
staggered tire setup) is to increase the rear stabilizer bar. That way
you can dcrease understeer *and* reduce body roll at the same time!!

--
-Fred W

JRE wrote:
> grinder wrote:
> <snip>
>
>> According to Dinan engineering:
>>
>> "adds larger and adjustable front and rear anti-roll bars to reduce
>> body roll for superior handling. The adjustable anti-roll bars provide
>> the ability to fine-tune the system for closer to neutral balance
>> reducing understeer. "
>>
>
> Yes. Stiffer front *and* rear bars will increase lateral transfer and
> reduce body roll. The adjustability can be used to change the balance
> of the car by making the front bar *relatively* less stiff than the rear
> one to decrease understeer.
>
> JRE

I do not think that last statement is correct. An adjustable bar allows
you to tweak the tension from side to side on the same axle. It does
not allow you to change the tension from front to rear because a) the
bars are not tied together and b) nor are they fixed in position like a
torsion bar (spring). The sway bar pivots in its bushings if the 2
wheels on that axle travel up and down together. It only applies cross
force when one wheel moves up or down compared to the other wheel on
that axle.

--
-Fred W

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>
>
> BMW of course stuck with steering boxes on their larger cars long after
> the rest of the world went to R&P. Something to do with our US cousins not
> liking too positive steering on this sort of vehicle, IIRC.
>

More like; They wanted to jam a big V8 lump in the engine compartment
and couldn't manage to fit a steering rack in there too. A RB steering
box is tiny by comparison and the tie rods, arms and links can be made
to go all over the place to clear the engine.

--
-Fred W

"Fred W" > wrote in message
. ..
> Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>
>>
>> BMW of course stuck with steering boxes on their larger cars long after
>> the rest of the world went to R&P. Something to do with our US cousins
>> not
>> liking too positive steering on this sort of vehicle, IIRC.
>>
>
> More like; They wanted to jam a big V8 lump in the engine compartment and
> couldn't manage to fit a steering rack in there too. A RB steering box is
> tiny by comparison and the tie rods, arms and links can be made to go all
> over the place to clear the engine.
>
> --
> -Fred W

An surprisingly, the RB in my 540 works quite well. Very crisp steering,
handles like a dream. Not as crisp or nimble as my M3, but you wouldn't
expect it to be.