I don't like electric assist stearing.

grinder wrote:

> "Fred W" > wrote in message
> news >
>>grinder wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Actually my first step will be to change tires away from run flats. The
>>>softer sidewall will provide better traction. The second choice will be
>>>to put a STIFFER roll bar (25mm) on the front AND a softer (22mm) on the
>>>rear.
>>>
>>>http://www.dinancars.com/Series.asp?...%20Tuning#1665
>>
>>If you do, it will increase the understeer.
>>
>>--
>>-Fred W
>
>
> Not if selected and adjusted correctly.
>
>

If the result of the selection and adjustment is a stiffer front bar and
a softer rear bar than the ones you have now, the car will understeer more.

JRE

grinder wrote:
<snip>
> According to Dinan engineering:
>
> "adds larger and adjustable front and rear anti-roll bars to reduce body
> roll for superior handling. The adjustable anti-roll bars provide the
> ability to fine-tune the system for closer to neutral balance reducing
> understeer. "
>

Yes. Stiffer front *and* rear bars will increase lateral transfer and
reduce body roll. The adjustability can be used to change the balance
of the car by making the front bar *relatively* less stiff than the rear
one to decrease understeer.

JRE

In article et>,
grinder > wrote:
> >> Actually my first step will be to change tires away from run flats.
> >> The softer sidewall will provide better traction.
> >
> > Maybe, but won't change the handling *balance*

> I wasn't talking about balance. The added traction of soft sidewall
> tires will help reduce slip.

At both ends. Resulting in the same understeer. It might improve the
steering response, though.

> >
> >> The second choice will be to put a STIFFER roll bar (25mm) on the
> >> front AND a softer (22mm) on the rear.
> >
> > Both of which will increase understeer. ;-)
> >
> >

> Only correct if incorrect sized roll bars are selected.

I'm only commenting on what you've written. Increasing roll stiffness at
the front increases understeer. As does reducing it at the back.

> http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handlin...antiroll.shtml As we
> mentioned, the anti-roll bar helps increase the mechanical downforce of
> the outside tire during cornering. This increases the traction of that
> tire, and that end of the car (front or rear). An increase in traction
> at that end, may leave the opposite end with too little traction. An
> imbalance of traction occurs, and one end of the car will lose traction
> before the other end. If the front tires lose traction before the rear
> tires, the car will understeer. If the rear tires lose traction before
> the front tires, the car will oversteer. Changing the anti-roll bar
> stiffness can adjust this out.

It's not for me you need to quote this. You need to read and try and
understand it. ;-)

> According to Dinan engineering:

> "adds larger and adjustable front and rear anti-roll bars to reduce body
> roll for superior handling. The adjustable anti-roll bars provide the
> ability to fine-tune the system for closer to neutral balance reducing
> understeer. "

Actually just adding larger anti-roll bars is a bodge which will spoil the
ride. Camber changes are a better way to set about it.

--
*Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:02:36 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
> wrote:

>In article et>,
> grinder > wrote:
>> >> Actually my first step will be to change tires away from run flats.
>> >> The softer sidewall will provide better traction.
>> >
>> > Maybe, but won't change the handling *balance*
>
>> I wasn't talking about balance. The added traction of soft sidewall
>> tires will help reduce slip.
>
>At both ends. Resulting in the same understeer. It might improve the
>steering response, though.

Maybe, but it depends on the car. The OEM tyre sidewalls for the NSX
are stiff to the point of being damned near solid, but they have a
soft compound tread rubber set in a bias pattern. With non-OEM tires
(ObUS) on this car, there is a 'slingshot' delay effect in the
handling which is really nasty. It's completely absent with the
correct tyres. Obscure trivia, but I'm in an obscure mood tonight.
--
Dan.

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:55:36 -0400, JRE > wrote:

>grinder wrote:
>
>> Next time you have dinner with Steve ask him to clear up his web site which
>> states:
>> "adds larger and adjustable front and rear anti-roll bars to reduce body
>> roll for superior handling. The adjustable anti-roll bars provide the
>> ability to fine-tune the system for closer to neutral balance reducing
>> understeer. "
>>
>> You may also ask him to tell his engineers not to suggest roll bars to help
>> reduce understeer.
>
>Dinan's website is doubtless correct. It's your interpretation that's
>wrong. Relatively stiffer front bars will increase understeer.
>Relatively less stiff front bars will decrease it.
>
>Since nothing comes for free, decreasing the stiffness of the front bar
>by itself will also increase body roll.
>
>JRE

Missed the start of this but I have just test driven a 2006 E65 7 Series. The
steering is very light but positive. At low speeds it's a kin to Jaguar XJ but
at higher speeds it does stiffen up slightly and is nice but going from my E38
to the E65 takes getting used to and moving back to the large (by comparison)
steering wheel of the E38 and heavier steering makes me want to go back to the
dealer and say "I'll take it".

However, there is a little matter of "where do I get the £40K
from..................



Sir Hugh of Bognor

The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys.

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen

Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

In article >,
Dean Dark > wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:02:36 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
> > wrote:

> >In article et>,
> > grinder > wrote:
> >> >> Actually my first step will be to change tires away from run
> >> >> flats. The softer sidewall will provide better traction.
> >> >
> >> > Maybe, but won't change the handling *balance*
> >
> >> I wasn't talking about balance. The added traction of soft sidewall
> >> tires will help reduce slip.
> >
> >At both ends. Resulting in the same understeer. It might improve the
> >steering response, though.

> Maybe, but it depends on the car. The OEM tyre sidewalls for the NSX
> are stiff to the point of being damned near solid, but they have a
> soft compound tread rubber set in a bias pattern. With non-OEM tires
> (ObUS) on this car, there is a 'slingshot' delay effect in the
> handling which is really nasty. It's completely absent with the
> correct tyres. Obscure trivia, but I'm in an obscure mood tonight.

Could be. Most of the reports I've read when changing from OEM run flats
to 'conventional' suggest comfort is the main gain.

--
*Never put off until tomorrow what you can avoid altogether *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article >,
> wrote:
> Missed the start of this but I have just test driven a 2006 E65 7
> Series. The steering is very light but positive. At low speeds it's a
> kin to Jaguar XJ but at higher speeds it does stiffen up slightly and is
> nice but going from my E38 to the E65 takes getting used to and moving
> back to the large (by comparison) steering wheel of the E38 and heavier
> steering makes me want to go back to the dealer and say "I'll take it".

BMW of course stuck with steering boxes on their larger cars long after
the rest of the world went to R&P. Something to do with our US cousins not
liking too positive steering on this sort of vehicle, IIRC.

> However, there is a little matter of "where do I get the £40K
> from..................

Tell me about it. ;-)

--
*He's not dead - he's electroencephalographically challenged

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
> In article et>,
> grinder > wrote:
>> >> Actually my first step will be to change tires away from run flats.
>> >> The softer sidewall will provide better traction.
>> >
>> > Maybe, but won't change the handling *balance*
>
>> I wasn't talking about balance. The added traction of soft sidewall
>> tires will help reduce slip.
>
> At both ends. Resulting in the same understeer. It might improve the
> steering response, though.
>
>> >
>> >> The second choice will be to put a STIFFER roll bar (25mm) on the
>> >> front AND a softer (22mm) on the rear.
>> >
>> > Both of which will increase understeer. ;-)
>> >
>> >
>
>> Only correct if incorrect sized roll bars are selected.
>
> I'm only commenting on what you've written. Increasing roll stiffness at
> the front increases understeer. As does reducing it at the back.
>
>> http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handlin...antiroll.shtml As we
>> mentioned, the anti-roll bar helps increase the mechanical downforce of
>> the outside tire during cornering. This increases the traction of that
>> tire, and that end of the car (front or rear). An increase in traction
>> at that end, may leave the opposite end with too little traction. An
>> imbalance of traction occurs, and one end of the car will lose traction
>> before the other end. If the front tires lose traction before the rear
>> tires, the car will understeer. If the rear tires lose traction before
>> the front tires, the car will oversteer. Changing the anti-roll bar
>> stiffness can adjust this out.
>
> It's not for me you need to quote this. You need to read and try and
> understand it. ;-)
>
>> According to Dinan engineering:
>
>> "adds larger and adjustable front and rear anti-roll bars to reduce body
>> roll for superior handling. The adjustable anti-roll bars provide the
>> ability to fine-tune the system for closer to neutral balance reducing
>> understeer. "
>
> Actually just adding larger anti-roll bars is a bodge which will spoil the
> ride. Camber changes are a better way to set about it.
>
> --
> *Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.
>
> Dave Plowman London SW
> To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Read the post from E Brown.

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Dean Dark > wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:02:36 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
>> > wrote:
>
>> >In article et>,
>> > grinder > wrote:
>> >> >> Actually my first step will be to change tires away from run
>> >> >> flats. The softer sidewall will provide better traction.
>> >> >
>> >> > Maybe, but won't change the handling *balance*
>> >
>> >> I wasn't talking about balance. The added traction of soft sidewall
>> >> tires will help reduce slip.
>> >
>> >At both ends. Resulting in the same understeer. It might improve the
>> >steering response, though.
>
>> Maybe, but it depends on the car. The OEM tyre sidewalls for the NSX
>> are stiff to the point of being damned near solid, but they have a
>> soft compound tread rubber set in a bias pattern. With non-OEM tires
>> (ObUS) on this car, there is a 'slingshot' delay effect in the
>> handling which is really nasty. It's completely absent with the
>> correct tyres. Obscure trivia, but I'm in an obscure mood tonight.
>
> Could be. Most of the reports I've read when changing from OEM run flats
> to 'conventional' suggest comfort is the main gain.
>

Read the post from E Brown. Also when I went to conventional over ride
flats on my Mini S the handling improved dramatically AND the noise
difference was huge. It was like going from a go-cart to a limo.

In article k.net>,
grinder > wrote:
> > Could be. Most of the reports I've read when changing from OEM run
> > flats to 'conventional' suggest comfort is the main gain.
> >

> Read the post from E Brown. Also when I went to conventional over ride
> flats on my Mini S the handling improved dramatically AND the noise
> difference was huge. It was like going from a go-cart to a limo.

So the handling went from excellent to dreadful?

--
*I yell because I care

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.