I don't like electric assist stearing.

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:19:38 GMT, "grinder" >
wrote:

>
>"E Brown" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:20:28 GMT, "grinder" >
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>It's a matter of degree. I have not found any articles referring to
>>>understeer in Boxsters or the Toyota 2000 but have countless on the topic
>>>for Z4s.
>>>
>> Well that's peculiar. My Google search for "boxster understeer"
>> turned up 14,800 articles.
>
>I can't do anything better than that. Mine turned up over 18,000.

As *opposed* to your original position there were no articles to be
found? What happened there?

>
>Many mention how *all* cars these days are
>> set up to understeer.
>
>That is like saying all tires provide traction. Your statement is true but
>there is a matter of degree.

Point conceded. However, your original post didn't claim to be
unhappy with the *degree* of understeer; you were in a state of high
dudgeon that understeer existed at all, claiming the Boxster had none.
As you continue to research this, I think you'll find that the Z4
steering tells you as you're about to lose it. What I've read about
the Boxster is that you're in complete control until, suddenly, things
are hopeless.
Weird how high the 3-series placed on that list you posted. Less
understeer than a Lotus Elise?
epbrown
--
How can you know where I'm at if you haven't been where I been?
Can you see where I'm coming from? "How I Could Just Kill A Man" Cypress Hill

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:03:23 GMT, "grinder" >
wrote:

>The tire changes should also improve traction.

They will. Since switching to my Goodyears, it takes a lot of
silliness for my little triangle to start flashing. On the run-flats,
hitting the on-ramp aggressively did it every time.
epbrown
--
How can you know where I'm at if you haven't been where I been?
Can you see where I'm coming from? "How I Could Just Kill A Man" Cypress Hill

In article . net>,
grinder > wrote:
> > Many BMWs come with staggered tires. Get rid of that as a first step.
> > Put the same size tire and wheel on both axles and you may find
> > things are much more "balanced" right there. Of course it won't look
> > like a dragster anymore... C'est la vie.
> >
> > -- -Fred W

> Actually my first step will be to change tires away from run flats. The
> softer sidewall will provide better traction.

Maybe, but won't change the handling *balance*

> The second choice will be to put a STIFFER roll bar (25mm) on the
> front AND a softer (22mm) on the rear.

Both of which will increase understeer. ;-)

--
*The first rule of holes: If you are in one, stop digging!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mar 16, 9:19 am, "grinder" > wrote:
> "Fred W" > wrote in message
>
> . ..
>
>
>
> > grinder wrote:
> >> "Fred W" > wrote in message
> m...

> > How to reduce understeer (or induce oversteer if taken far enough):
>
> > Increase front tire pressure
> > Decrease Rear tire pressure
> > Shave Front tires (decrease tread depth)
> > Wider Front Tires
> > Narrower Rear Tires
> > Make Front Camber more Negative
> > Make Front Caster more Positive
> > Reduce Front Toe-in
> > Softer front swap bar
> > Stiffer rear sway Bar
> > Soften front springs
> > Stiffen rear springs
> > Softer front shocks
> > Stiffer rear shocks
>
> Actually my first step will be to change tires away from run flats. The
> softer sidewall will provide better traction. The second choice will be to
> put a STIFFER roll bar (25mm) on the front AND a softer (22mm) on the rear.

Reread what Fred wrote because he's absolutely correct. *Your*
proposed antiroll bar changes on the car will simply aggravate your
problem. Hopefully, the sheer number of those of us pointing this out
will convince you.

If, OTOH, you are a sworn Disciple of the Denizens of Dinan, give them
the list of suggested changes above and ask them about it. I've met
(actually, 'had dinner with') Steve and he's not an idiot. Although
he'd love for you to buy a whole suspension package from him, I don't
think he'd lie to you about the effect of those simple changes on
understeer/oversteer. If you want a more tailored approach, you might
contact my old pal, T.C. Kline, since he's done a lot with the Z4 in
the past few years. You can tell him I sent you.
--
C.R. Krieger
(Knows they all understeer)

"E28 Guy©" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Mar 16, 9:19 am, "grinder" > wrote:
>> "Fred W" > wrote in message
>>
>> . ..
>>
>>
>>
>> > grinder wrote:
>> >> "Fred W" > wrote in message
>> m...
>
>> > How to reduce understeer (or induce oversteer if taken far enough):
>>
>> > Increase front tire pressure
>> > Decrease Rear tire pressure
>> > Shave Front tires (decrease tread depth)
>> > Wider Front Tires
>> > Narrower Rear Tires
>> > Make Front Camber more Negative
>> > Make Front Caster more Positive
>> > Reduce Front Toe-in
>> > Softer front swap bar
>> > Stiffer rear sway Bar
>> > Soften front springs
>> > Stiffen rear springs
>> > Softer front shocks
>> > Stiffer rear shocks
>>
>> Actually my first step will be to change tires away from run flats. The
>> softer sidewall will provide better traction. The second choice will be
>> to
>> put a STIFFER roll bar (25mm) on the front AND a softer (22mm) on the
>> rear.
>
> Reread what Fred wrote because he's absolutely correct. *Your*
> proposed antiroll bar changes on the car will simply aggravate your
> problem. Hopefully, the sheer number of those of us pointing this out
> will convince you.
>
> If, OTOH, you are a sworn Disciple of the Denizens of Dinan, give them
> the list of suggested changes above and ask them about it. I've met
> (actually, 'had dinner with') Steve and he's not an idiot. Although
> he'd love for you to buy a whole suspension package from him, I don't
> think he'd lie to you about the effect of those simple changes on
> understeer/oversteer. If you want a more tailored approach, you might
> contact my old pal, T.C. Kline, since he's done a lot with the Z4 in
> the past few years. You can tell him I sent you.
> --
> C.R. Krieger
> (Knows they all understeer)
>

Next time you have dinner with Steve ask him to clear up his web site which
states:
"adds larger and adjustable front and rear anti-roll bars to reduce body
roll for superior handling. The adjustable anti-roll bars provide the
ability to fine-tune the system for closer to neutral balance reducing
understeer. "

You may also ask him to tell his engineers not to suggest roll bars to help
reduce understeer.

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
> In article . net>,
> grinder > wrote:
>> > Many BMWs come with staggered tires. Get rid of that as a first step.
>> > Put the same size tire and wheel on both axles and you may find
>> > things are much more "balanced" right there. Of course it won't look
>> > like a dragster anymore... C'est la vie.
>> >
>> > -- -Fred W
>
>> Actually my first step will be to change tires away from run flats. The
>> softer sidewall will provide better traction.
>
> Maybe, but won't change the handling *balance*

I wasn't talking about balance. The added traction of soft sidewall tires
will help reduce slip.

>
>> The second choice will be to put a STIFFER roll bar (25mm) on the
>> front AND a softer (22mm) on the rear.
>
> Both of which will increase understeer. ;-)
>
>

Only correct if incorrect sized roll bars are selected.

http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handlin...antiroll.shtml
As we mentioned, the anti-roll bar helps increase the mechanical downforce
of the outside tire during cornering. This increases the traction of that
tire, and that end of the car (front or rear). An increase in traction at
that end, may leave the opposite end with too little traction. An imbalance
of traction occurs, and one end of the car will lose traction before the
other end. If the front tires lose traction before the rear tires, the car
will understeer. If the rear tires lose traction before the front tires, the
car will oversteer. Changing the anti-roll bar stiffness can adjust this
out.

According to Dinan engineering:

"adds larger and adjustable front and rear anti-roll bars to reduce body
roll for superior handling. The adjustable anti-roll bars provide the
ability to fine-tune the system for closer to neutral balance reducing
understeer. "

"Fred W" > wrote in message
news
> grinder wrote:
>
>>
>> Actually my first step will be to change tires away from run flats. The
>> softer sidewall will provide better traction. The second choice will be
>> to put a STIFFER roll bar (25mm) on the front AND a softer (22mm) on the
>> rear.
>>
>> http://www.dinancars.com/Series.asp?...%20Tuning#1665
>
> If you do, it will increase the understeer.
>
> --
> -Fred W

Not if selected and adjusted correctly.

"E28 Guy©" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Mar 16, 9:19 am, "grinder" > wrote:
>> "Fred W" > wrote in message
>>
>> . ..
>>
>>
>>
>> > grinder wrote:
>> >> "Fred W" > wrote in message
>> m...
>
>> > How to reduce understeer (or induce oversteer if taken far enough):
>>
>> > Increase front tire pressure
>> > Decrease Rear tire pressure
>> > Shave Front tires (decrease tread depth)
>> > Wider Front Tires
>> > Narrower Rear Tires
>> > Make Front Camber more Negative
>> > Make Front Caster more Positive
>> > Reduce Front Toe-in
>> > Softer front swap bar
>> > Stiffer rear sway Bar
>> > Soften front springs
>> > Stiffen rear springs
>> > Softer front shocks
>> > Stiffer rear shocks
>>
>> Actually my first step will be to change tires away from run flats. The
>> softer sidewall will provide better traction. The second choice will be
>> to
>> put a STIFFER roll bar (25mm) on the front AND a softer (22mm) on the
>> rear.
>
> Reread what Fred wrote because he's absolutely correct. *Your*
> proposed antiroll bar changes on the car will simply aggravate your
> problem. Hopefully, the sheer number of those of us pointing this out
> will convince you.
>
> If, OTOH, you are a sworn Disciple of the Denizens of Dinan, give them
> the list of suggested changes above and ask them about it. I've met
> (actually, 'had dinner with') Steve and he's not an idiot. Although
> he'd love for you to buy a whole suspension package from him, I don't
> think he'd lie to you about the effect of those simple changes on
> understeer/oversteer. If you want a more tailored approach, you might
> contact my old pal, T.C. Kline, since he's done a lot with the Z4 in
> the past few years. You can tell him I sent you.
> --
> C.R. Krieger
> (Knows they all understeer)
>

Judas Priest!!!! Repeat after me: "I KNOW they all understeer."

Now for the last time let's say this together "it's a matter of degree!"
The difference between the balance of my Mini S and my Z4 allows me to
corner better in the Mini.

"E28 Guy©" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Mar 16, 9:19 am, "grinder" > wrote:
>> "Fred W" > wrote in message
>>
>> . ..
>>
>>
>>
>> > grinder wrote:
>> >> "Fred W" > wrote in message
>> m...
>
>> > How to reduce understeer (or induce oversteer if taken far enough):
>>
>> > Increase front tire pressure
>> > Decrease Rear tire pressure
>> > Shave Front tires (decrease tread depth)
>> > Wider Front Tires
>> > Narrower Rear Tires
>> > Make Front Camber more Negative
>> > Make Front Caster more Positive
>> > Reduce Front Toe-in
>> > Softer front swap bar
>> > Stiffer rear sway Bar
>> > Soften front springs
>> > Stiffen rear springs
>> > Softer front shocks
>> > Stiffer rear shocks
>>
>> Actually my first step will be to change tires away from run flats. The
>> softer sidewall will provide better traction. The second choice will be
>> to
>> put a STIFFER roll bar (25mm) on the front AND a softer (22mm) on the
>> rear.
>
> Reread what Fred wrote because he's absolutely correct. *Your*
> proposed antiroll bar changes on the car will simply aggravate your
> problem. Hopefully, the sheer number of those of us pointing this out
> will convince you.

http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handlin...antiroll.shtml
"The anti-roll bar reduces body roll to keep the suspension geometry, and
ultimately the tire, parallel with the road. Stiffer bars reduce body roll
more, but too stiff a bar can deteriorate independent suspension
performance, and ultimately cause an inside tire to lift off the ground
during hard cornering.

The anti-roll bar can also be a major tuning element in reducing excessive
understeer or oversteer. Used INCORRECTLY (my emphasis) it can also cause
it."

I don't intend on using them INCORRECTLY. Of course you and whoever are
certainly entitled to do so to prove your point.

grinder wrote:

> Next time you have dinner with Steve ask him to clear up his web site which
> states:
> "adds larger and adjustable front and rear anti-roll bars to reduce body
> roll for superior handling. The adjustable anti-roll bars provide the
> ability to fine-tune the system for closer to neutral balance reducing
> understeer. "
>
> You may also ask him to tell his engineers not to suggest roll bars to help
> reduce understeer.

Dinan's website is doubtless correct. It's your interpretation that's
wrong. Relatively stiffer front bars will increase understeer.
Relatively less stiff front bars will decrease it.

Since nothing comes for free, decreasing the stiffness of the front bar
by itself will also increase body roll.

JRE