Fuel comparison charts

In article >,
Ed Huntress > wrote:

> On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 08:44:58 -0500, "." > wrote:
>
> >"Ed Huntress" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 22:16:19 -0500, Martin Eastburn
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>>Washington holds back drilling - supply and demand.
> >>
> >> No, Washington isn't holding back drilling. They've let out hundreds
> >> of drilling leases that the oil companies aren't using. Prices have
> >> come down, not up. There is more supply than demand.
> >>
> >>>Washington taxes layer upon layer onto the fuel as a
> >>>tax source.
> >>
> >> No, there is one federal tax on gasoline: 18.4 cents/gallon, where
> >> it's been since 1993. With inflation, its value keeps going down.
> >>
> >>>
> >>>The additives MTBE (trash junk that pollutes ground water) and now
> >>>grain alcohol that robs the national store, world food bank, and
> >>>home base food for all. Feed prices are up and fuel is also.
> >>
> >> Corn ethanol has had some influence on grain prices. Otherwise, every
> >> one of your assertions here is a myth, Martin.
> >>
> >> Ed Huntress
> >
> >During an expose years ago on "60 Minutes", the question
> >"which is the more toxic, MTBE or the gasoline itself?" was
> >posed. The definitive reply stated conclusively that it was
> >actually the latter, rendering the entire alarmist groundwater
> >contamination issue by MTBE effectively moot.
>
> I wondered about that. I mean, how much more toxic can it be than
> gasoline?
>
> I remember the discussion about the show you mention, but I never saw
> it. Interesting.
>
Don't think it is the toxicity but rather the persistence. In
otherwords, it doesn't break down as quickly so it can be less nasty but
for a longer period of time.

From the EPA website.
Because MTBE dissolves easily in water and does not "cling" to soil very
well, it migrates faster and farther in the ground than other gasoline
components, thus making it more likely to contaminate public water
systems and private drinking water wells. MTBE does not degrade
(breakdown) easily and is difficult and costly to remove from ground
water.
How long will MTBE remain in water?
MTBE is generally more resistant to natural biodegradation than other
gasoline components. Some monitoring wells have shown little overall
reduction in MTBE concentration over several years which suggests that
MTBE is relatively persistent in ground water. In contrast, studies of
surface water (lakes and reservoirs have shown that MTBE volatilizes
(evaporates) relatively quickly.
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 17:27:27 -0400, Kurt Ullman >
wrote:

>In article >,
> Ed Huntress > wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 08:44:58 -0500, "." > wrote:
>>
>> >"Ed Huntress" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>> >> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 22:16:19 -0500, Martin Eastburn
>> >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>Washington holds back drilling - supply and demand.
>> >>
>> >> No, Washington isn't holding back drilling. They've let out hundreds
>> >> of drilling leases that the oil companies aren't using. Prices have
>> >> come down, not up. There is more supply than demand.
>> >>
>> >>>Washington taxes layer upon layer onto the fuel as a
>> >>>tax source.
>> >>
>> >> No, there is one federal tax on gasoline: 18.4 cents/gallon, where
>> >> it's been since 1993. With inflation, its value keeps going down.
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>The additives MTBE (trash junk that pollutes ground water) and now
>> >>>grain alcohol that robs the national store, world food bank, and
>> >>>home base food for all. Feed prices are up and fuel is also.
>> >>
>> >> Corn ethanol has had some influence on grain prices. Otherwise, every
>> >> one of your assertions here is a myth, Martin.
>> >>
>> >> Ed Huntress
>> >
>> >During an expose years ago on "60 Minutes", the question
>> >"which is the more toxic, MTBE or the gasoline itself?" was
>> >posed. The definitive reply stated conclusively that it was
>> >actually the latter, rendering the entire alarmist groundwater
>> >contamination issue by MTBE effectively moot.
>>
>> I wondered about that. I mean, how much more toxic can it be than
>> gasoline?
>>
>> I remember the discussion about the show you mention, but I never saw
>> it. Interesting.
>>
> Don't think it is the toxicity but rather the persistence. In
>otherwords, it doesn't break down as quickly so it can be less nasty but
>for a longer period of time.
>
>From the EPA website.
>Because MTBE dissolves easily in water and does not "cling" to soil very
>well, it migrates faster and farther in the ground than other gasoline
>components, thus making it more likely to contaminate public water
>systems and private drinking water wells. MTBE does not degrade
>(breakdown) easily and is difficult and costly to remove from ground
>water.
>How long will MTBE remain in water?
>MTBE is generally more resistant to natural biodegradation than other
>gasoline components. Some monitoring wells have shown little overall
>reduction in MTBE concentration over several years which suggests that
>MTBE is relatively persistent in ground water. In contrast, studies of
>surface water (lakes and reservoirs have shown that MTBE volatilizes
>(evaporates) relatively quickly.

Aha. Very interesting. Thanks, Kurt.

--
Ed Huntress

"Kurt Ullman" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Ed Huntress > wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 08:44:58 -0500, "." > wrote:
>>
>> >"Ed Huntress" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>> >> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 22:16:19 -0500, Martin Eastburn
>> >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>Washington holds back drilling - supply and demand.
>> >>
>> >> No, Washington isn't holding back drilling. They've let out hundreds
>> >> of drilling leases that the oil companies aren't using. Prices have
>> >> come down, not up. There is more supply than demand.
>> >>
>> >>>Washington taxes layer upon layer onto the fuel as a
>> >>>tax source.
>> >>
>> >> No, there is one federal tax on gasoline: 18.4 cents/gallon, where
>> >> it's been since 1993. With inflation, its value keeps going down.
>> >>>
>> >>>The additives MTBE (trash junk that pollutes ground water) and now
>> >>>grain alcohol that robs the national store, world food bank, and
>> >>>home base food for all. Feed prices are up and fuel is also.
>> >>
>> >> Corn ethanol has had some influence on grain prices. Otherwise, every
>> >> one of your assertions here is a myth, Martin.
>> >>
>> >> Ed Huntress
>> >
>> >During an expose years ago on "60 Minutes", the question
>> >"which is the more toxic, MTBE or the gasoline itself?" was
>> >posed. The definitive reply stated conclusively that it was
>> >actually the latter, rendering the entire alarmist groundwater
>> >contamination issue by MTBE effectively moot.
>>
>> I wondered about that. I mean, how much more toxic can it be than
>> gasoline?
>>
>> I remember the discussion about the show you mention, but I never saw
>> it. Interesting.
>
> Don't think it is the toxicity but rather the persistence. In
> otherwords, it doesn't break down as quickly so it can be less nasty but
> for a longer period of time.
>
> From the EPA website.
> Because MTBE dissolves easily in water and does not "cling" to soil very
> well, it migrates faster and farther in the ground than other gasoline
> components, thus making it more likely to contaminate public water
> systems and private drinking water wells. MTBE does not degrade
> (breakdown) easily and is difficult and costly to remove from ground
> water.
> How long will MTBE remain in water?
> MTBE is generally more resistant to natural biodegradation than other
> gasoline components. Some monitoring wells have shown little overall
> reduction in MTBE concentration over several years which suggests that
> MTBE is relatively persistent in ground water. In contrast, studies of
> surface water (lakes and reservoirs have shown that MTBE volatilizes
> (evaporates) relatively quickly.
> --
> America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
> to work within the system, but too early to shoot
> the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

Unlike the petroleum distillates it is in solution with, MTBE
is easily removed by, to name but one, common activated
charcoal filtration systems. The scare tactic was nothing
more than a smoke screen generated by the petroleum
refiners and distributors in a cynical attempt to misdirect
the populace (by blaming a government mandated additive)
and conceal the actual problem, leaking fuel storage tanks.

Ed Huntress wrote:
>
> On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 10:16:08 -0500, jim >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Ed Huntress wrote:
> >>
> >
> >> >
> >> >During an expose years ago on "60 Minutes", the question
> >> >"which is the more toxic, MTBE or the gasoline itself?" was
> >> >posed. The definitive reply stated conclusively that it was
> >> >actually the latter, rendering the entire alarmist groundwater
> >> >contamination issue by MTBE effectively moot.
> >>
> >> I wondered about that. I mean, how much more toxic can it be than
> >> gasoline?
> >
> >MTBE mixes with water. Gasoline doesn't.
> >It also does not bind as well to soil as gasoline molecules.
> >That means it travels quickly with rain water into aquifers.
> >The EPA for years said it was safe until it started showing
> >up in water supplies wherever it was used.
>
> So what's the bottom line on MTBE as it's understood today?

As far as I know it was banned in a many states.
That is when the EPA and oil cos gave up promoting it
and switched to ethanol.

>
> --
> Ed Huntress

On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 17:06:00 -0500, "." > wrote:

>"Kurt Ullman" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> Ed Huntress > wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 08:44:58 -0500, "." > wrote:
>>>
>>> >"Ed Huntress" > wrote in message
>>> .. .
>>> >> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 22:16:19 -0500, Martin Eastburn
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>>Washington holds back drilling - supply and demand.
>>> >>
>>> >> No, Washington isn't holding back drilling. They've let out hundreds
>>> >> of drilling leases that the oil companies aren't using. Prices have
>>> >> come down, not up. There is more supply than demand.
>>> >>
>>> >>>Washington taxes layer upon layer onto the fuel as a
>>> >>>tax source.
>>> >>
>>> >> No, there is one federal tax on gasoline: 18.4 cents/gallon, where
>>> >> it's been since 1993. With inflation, its value keeps going down.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>The additives MTBE (trash junk that pollutes ground water) and now
>>> >>>grain alcohol that robs the national store, world food bank, and
>>> >>>home base food for all. Feed prices are up and fuel is also.
>>> >>
>>> >> Corn ethanol has had some influence on grain prices. Otherwise, every
>>> >> one of your assertions here is a myth, Martin.
>>> >>
>>> >> Ed Huntress
>>> >
>>> >During an expose years ago on "60 Minutes", the question
>>> >"which is the more toxic, MTBE or the gasoline itself?" was
>>> >posed. The definitive reply stated conclusively that it was
>>> >actually the latter, rendering the entire alarmist groundwater
>>> >contamination issue by MTBE effectively moot.
>>>
>>> I wondered about that. I mean, how much more toxic can it be than
>>> gasoline?
>>>
>>> I remember the discussion about the show you mention, but I never saw
>>> it. Interesting.
>>
>> Don't think it is the toxicity but rather the persistence. In
>> otherwords, it doesn't break down as quickly so it can be less nasty but
>> for a longer period of time.
>>
>> From the EPA website.
>> Because MTBE dissolves easily in water and does not "cling" to soil very
>> well, it migrates faster and farther in the ground than other gasoline
>> components, thus making it more likely to contaminate public water
>> systems and private drinking water wells. MTBE does not degrade
>> (breakdown) easily and is difficult and costly to remove from ground
>> water.
>> How long will MTBE remain in water?
>> MTBE is generally more resistant to natural biodegradation than other
>> gasoline components. Some monitoring wells have shown little overall
>> reduction in MTBE concentration over several years which suggests that
>> MTBE is relatively persistent in ground water. In contrast, studies of
>> surface water (lakes and reservoirs have shown that MTBE volatilizes
>> (evaporates) relatively quickly.
>> --
>> America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
>> to work within the system, but too early to shoot
>> the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe
>
>Unlike the petroleum distillates it is in solution with, MTBE
>is easily removed by, to name but one, common activated
>charcoal filtration systems. The scare tactic was nothing
>more than a smoke screen generated by the petroleum
>refiners and distributors in a cynical attempt to misdirect
>the populace (by blaming a government mandated additive)
>and conceal the actual problem, leaking fuel storage tanks.
>
So we should believe someone who has no name, nym or valid email
address?

Right. Oh **** yes.

Gunner

--
""Almost all liberal behavioral tropes track the impotent rage of small
children. Thus, for example, there is also the popular tactic of
repeating some stupid, meaningless phrase a billion times" Arms for
hostages, arms for hostages, arms for hostages, it's just about sex, just
about sex, just about sex, dumb,dumb, money in politics,money in
politics, Enron, Enron, Enron. Nothing repeated with mind-numbing
frequency in all major news outlets will not be believed by some members
of the populace. It is the permanence of evil; you can't stop it." (Ann
Coulter)

"Gunner Asch" > wrote in message
...
>>Unlike the petroleum distillates it is in solution with, MTBE
>>is easily removed by, to name but one, common activated
>>charcoal filtration systems. The scare tactic was nothing
>>more than a smoke screen generated by the petroleum
>>refiners and distributors in a cynical attempt to misdirect
>>the populace (by blaming a government mandated additive)
>>and conceal the actual problem, leaking fuel storage tanks.
>>
> So we should believe someone who has no name, nym or valid email
> address?
>
> Right. Oh **** yes.
>
> Gunner

You shouldn't believe ANYONE based on their name or
email address, you mouth-breathing knuckle-dragging moron.

On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 19:00:59 -0500, "." > wrote:

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>From: "." >
>Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.home.repair,rec.autos. tech
>Subject: Fuel comparison charts
>Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 19:00:59 -0500
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>"Gunner Asch" > wrote in message
.. .
>>>Unlike the petroleum distillates it is in solution with, MTBE
>>>is easily removed by, to name but one, common activated
>>>charcoal filtration systems. The scare tactic was nothing
>>>more than a smoke screen generated by the petroleum
>>>refiners and distributors in a cynical attempt to misdirect
>>>the populace (by blaming a government mandated additive)
>>>and conceal the actual problem, leaking fuel storage tanks.
>>>
>> So we should believe someone who has no name, nym or valid email
>> address?
>>
>> Right. Oh **** yes.
>>
>> Gunner
>
>You shouldn't believe ANYONE based on their name or
>email address, you mouth-breathing knuckle-dragging moron.
>


We obviously pay a lot of attention to your nym....(not)...

Laugh laugh laugh!!

Begone troll!!

<plink>

Gunner

--
""Almost all liberal behavioral tropes track the impotent rage of small
children. Thus, for example, there is also the popular tactic of
repeating some stupid, meaningless phrase a billion times" Arms for
hostages, arms for hostages, arms for hostages, it's just about sex, just
about sex, just about sex, dumb,dumb, money in politics,money in
politics, Enron, Enron, Enron. Nothing repeated with mind-numbing
frequency in all major news outlets will not be believed by some members
of the populace. It is the permanence of evil; you can't stop it." (Ann
Coulter)

Leases don't mean drilling. Billions of dollars were spent
on the large state size leases offshore of California. Then after
paying the government for the leases, the loonies pleaded and got
a drilling halt and forbade wells out in the water.

Large tracks are held at bay in the gulf. Some were active but shut
down after the spill. The area near Miami was rich in oil, but
it was held back because of ugly rigs in the skyline. Then Cuba / China
moved in and their rig can be seen from Miami.

MTBE dropped miles / gallon. It polluted ground water. And there is
a huge bubble of it at the bottom of Lake Tahoe.

Ethanol is hygroscopic and when a tank is a breather and not sealed,
it pulls in cool damp air at night, and condenses into the tank. This
is a common failure mode of gas now. Special ethanol additives have
been developed to trap the water and allow it to be burned. Typically
it sits and freezes - cracking small motor parts. I try to run all of
them wide open to use up the gas before letting them sit.

And taxes are more than Federal. Tax on the whole product string.
And having the Gasoline and Crude oil different commodity and have
been the souce of the 'excessive gain tax' - where the oil companies
buy crude and sell the results of their work at a much higher value
due to the demand price on gas and anti-demand on Crude.

So taxes are from many levels and many methods.

And I live in cattle, gas/oil/timber/farming area of Texas - and the
large feed mills have had prices rise (brother worked at a large mill)
and the chicken / turkey feed is up as well as dairy cattle feed / horse
and pig feed. Any product that used grain - higher gas / fuel cost -
rises the cost of feed. Supply and demand is another. Taking feed corn
to be turned into this poor example of fuel is shameful. It was easy.

Brazil has special engines. They did it correctly. Indy cars did it also.

Martin

On 7/1/2013 7:23 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 22:16:19 -0500, Martin Eastburn
> > wrote:
>
>> Washington holds back drilling - supply and demand.
>
> No, Washington isn't holding back drilling. They've let out hundreds
> of drilling leases that the oil companies aren't using. Prices have
> come down, not up. There is more supply than demand.
>
>> Washington taxes layer upon layer onto the fuel as a
>> tax source.
>
> No, there is one federal tax on gasoline: 18.4 cents/gallon, where
> it's been since 1993. With inflation, its value keeps going down.
>
>>
>> The additives MTBE (trash junk that pollutes ground water) and now
>> grain alcohol that robs the national store, world food bank, and
>> home base food for all. Feed prices are up and fuel is also.
>
> Corn ethanol has had some influence on grain prices. Otherwise, every
> one of your assertions here is a myth, Martin.
>
> Ed Huntress
>
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> On 6/30/2013 6:08 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
>>> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 18:52:28 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Takes a lot of grains and starches off the market, that could have been used for feeding animals or humans. Or making manufacturing. On the other hand, I've heard we have plenty of oil in the ground in the USA, and off the coast. Our fuel shortages and high prices are due to Washington DC, not due to any real shortage.
>>>
>>> There is no fuel shortage. Prices are roughly the same as they were in
>>> 1980, allowing for general inflation. Washington has almost nothing to
>>> do with fuel costs.
>>>
>>> We have plenty of grains and starch to eat. Those are not issues.
>>>
>>> All in all, Chris, that's a lot of mush inside your head, for one
>>> person. Where do you get all that stuff?
>>>

It was exposed that MTBE was made in Canada and a certain
small investor group - turned out to be advisory panel that
voted for MTBE.

MTBE has been banned as soon as anything else was useful in the place.

California dumped it. Other states took longer but understood and
got rid it it also.

Martin

On 7/1/2013 1:34 PM, Richard wrote:
> On 7/1/2013 10:19 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
>> On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 10:16:08 -0500, >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ed Huntress wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> During an expose years ago on "60 Minutes", the question
>>>>> "which is the more toxic, MTBE or the gasoline itself?" was
>>>>> posed. The definitive reply stated conclusively that it was
>>>>> actually the latter, rendering the entire alarmist groundwater
>>>>> contamination issue by MTBE effectively moot.
>>>>
>>>> I wondered about that. I mean, how much more toxic can it be than
>>>> gasoline?
>>>
>>> MTBE mixes with water. Gasoline doesn't.
>>> It also does not bind as well to soil as gasoline molecules.
>>> That means it travels quickly with rain water into aquifers.
>>> The EPA for years said it was safe until it started showing
>>> up in water supplies wherever it was used.
>>
>> So what's the bottom line on MTBE as it's understood today?
>>
>
>
> Like many things that our economy rides on - necessary evil...

Wonder about Tahoe. It went deep into the cold and
just created a big bubble.

Maybe in shallow lakes that get mixed up all of the time
by the wind and boats - it might release itself, but I seem
to recall it was heaver than water. So agitation is required.

Martin

On 7/1/2013 4:27 PM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
> In article >,
> Ed Huntress > wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 08:44:58 -0500, "." > wrote:
>>
>>> "Ed Huntress" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 22:16:19 -0500, Martin Eastburn
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Washington holds back drilling - supply and demand.
>>>>
>>>> No, Washington isn't holding back drilling. They've let out hundreds
>>>> of drilling leases that the oil companies aren't using. Prices have
>>>> come down, not up. There is more supply than demand.
>>>>
>>>>> Washington taxes layer upon layer onto the fuel as a
>>>>> tax source.
>>>>
>>>> No, there is one federal tax on gasoline: 18.4 cents/gallon, where
>>>> it's been since 1993. With inflation, its value keeps going down.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The additives MTBE (trash junk that pollutes ground water) and now
>>>>> grain alcohol that robs the national store, world food bank, and
>>>>> home base food for all. Feed prices are up and fuel is also.
>>>>
>>>> Corn ethanol has had some influence on grain prices. Otherwise, every
>>>> one of your assertions here is a myth, Martin.
>>>>
>>>> Ed Huntress
>>>
>>> During an expose years ago on "60 Minutes", the question
>>> "which is the more toxic, MTBE or the gasoline itself?" was
>>> posed. The definitive reply stated conclusively that it was
>>> actually the latter, rendering the entire alarmist groundwater
>>> contamination issue by MTBE effectively moot.
>>
>> I wondered about that. I mean, how much more toxic can it be than
>> gasoline?
>>
>> I remember the discussion about the show you mention, but I never saw
>> it. Interesting.
>>
> Don't think it is the toxicity but rather the persistence. In
> otherwords, it doesn't break down as quickly so it can be less nasty but
> for a longer period of time.
>
> From the EPA website.
> Because MTBE dissolves easily in water and does not "cling" to soil very
> well, it migrates faster and farther in the ground than other gasoline
> components, thus making it more likely to contaminate public water
> systems and private drinking water wells. MTBE does not degrade
> (breakdown) easily and is difficult and costly to remove from ground
> water.
> How long will MTBE remain in water?
> MTBE is generally more resistant to natural biodegradation than other
> gasoline components. Some monitoring wells have shown little overall
> reduction in MTBE concentration over several years which suggests that
> MTBE is relatively persistent in ground water. In contrast, studies of
> surface water (lakes and reservoirs have shown that MTBE volatilizes
> (evaporates) relatively quickly.
>