Thermostat

On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 11:01:37 -0000, "GT" > wrote:

>"Zathras" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 09:47:04 -0000, "GT" > wrote:
>>
>>>"Zathras" > wrote in message
>>>news >>>> On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:13:31 -0000, "GT" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I was sitting here quietly thinking exactly that - my 156 JTS has very
>>>>>smart
>>>>>stability control - you feel it kick in on greasy roundabout - it feels
>>>>>like
>>>>>a big hand grabs hold of the wheel that is sliding sometimes and just
>>>>>holds
>>>>>on until grip returns.
>>>>
>>>> Yep. Best front wheel drive electronic control I've driven. ASR - does
>>>> exactly what it says on the tin.
>>>
>>><pedantMode> ASR is traction control (anti-slip regulation) - it just
>>>limits
>>>driving wheel spin under acceleration and can be turned off manually. Its
>>>the VDC (vehicle dynamic control) that sorts out slides and skids on all 4
>>>wheels and is on permanently. </pedantMode>
>>
>> That's why I deliberately mentioned ASR. I've no comment to make on
>> VDC as I've never experienced it on an Alfa. I have in a BMW.
>
>My mistake. We were talking about stability systems and you said that your
>BMW seemed a bit slow-witted compared to an old
>156 JTS. By 'stability system', I presumed you meant the BMWs VDC vehicle
>stability thingy was not as good as the Alfa's.

I'd expect *some* similarity of basic characteristics as the systems
will be closely related if Alfa still use Bosch. The BMW *stability*
element is excellent if a touch keen. You can head toward a corner and
(this part takes some nerve by the way) nail the accelerator so that
your entry speed into the corner is too high and the BMW will throttle
back and brake and get you round. It's a very lively roller coaster
trick if the car's full of delicate women! This is particularly the
case if you keep your foot flat as the second the car thinks it's ok,
you get the beans on corner exit. 8-) It's not something that would
gain you lap time as it's not as fast as a good driver doing the
corner properly.

It's the BMW *traction* control that I think is slower witted than
Alfas ASR. However, it's all part of the same ABS box of tricks. The
ABS sensors and controls (brake and accelerator) used by the various
parts are common. Indeed, the so-called *stability* part could be
thought of as 'traction plus' - it's just traction control with
additional consideration of accelerometers and steering angle. Indeed,
I've always been a little confused at how Alfa could switch off just
the traction element (ASR) without switching off the stability element
(VDC) too.

>My 156 JTS traction control (ASR) is very laid back and doesn't prevent
>wheel spin entirely, it seems to just limit how suddenly the wheels are
>allowed to spin.

ASR will be triggered above a wheel spin threshold value compared to
other wheels. The proof that this must happen is, if there wasn't a
threshold value (which allows some wheel slip) then you would find
yourself in a manual car on ice with a stalled engine because the
slightest slip would jam the driven wheel brakes on and stall it. This
doesn't happen and this is why simple electronic traction controls can
be less effective than the proper electro-mechanical systems on some
off-road vehicles.

> The VDC on the other hand is brilliant and I've felt it
>stop a 'roundabout spin' from starting a couple of times on wet greasy UK
>roads - braking the wheel that has grip to prevent the sliding wheel from
>taking me into the gutter.

In *normal* driving, it's not always obvious to the driver where the
separation is between the traction and stability elements. If, as you
said, you're on a greasy roundabout, I'd suggest both would likely be
operating at the same time unless your foot was completely off the
accelerator. Mind you, I wouldn't be that keen on that particular
scenario as there is the implication that you've been caught out, lost
control of the vehicle and it's had to come to your rescue. Oops.

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather (sold)
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email must have the word 'Alfa' in the
subject line to get through auto-filtering)

"Catman" > wrote in message
...
> Meh. I hope to be buying my 4200 in the next 12 months. I'll be in the
> same boat, cost wise AIUI.
>

This one is probably going cheap if you're in the market! ;-)

http://www.orange.co.uk/cars/picture...cscarsorangeuk

http://tinyurl.com/265z3n2


Regards
Ross

On 13/12/2010 20:29, Ross wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> Meh. I hope to be buying my 4200 in the next 12 months. I'll be in the
>> same boat, cost wise AIUI.
>>
>
> This one is probably going cheap if you're in the market! ;-)
>
> http://www.orange.co.uk/cars/picture...cscarsorangeuk
>
> http://tinyurl.com/265z3n2
>
>


Nah. Don't like the colour


--
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Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
#www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

"Stef" > wrote in message
...
> In alt.autos.alfa-romeo,
> GT > wrote:
>>
>> Mine's a 2002, 156 Petrol 2.0 JTS. Anyone know where the thermostat is
>> and
>> how easy the job is? Should I even consider changing it myself? I'm
>> proficient with the spanner and screwdriver, but I won't go near anything
>> critical - ie: if its in there with the timing belt and pump etc, then
>> I'm
>> not going there! If it is inline with the cooling pipes and radiator,
>> then I'll
>> consider it.
>
> Thermostat is on the side of the cylinderhead. Not very hard to change,
> remove air intake tube to get access. And don't forget to drain the
> coolant first!

Sorry to drag this one out guys, but...

The new thermo finally arrived last week (about 10 days delivery 'cos of
weather delays!) and I had a go at it yesterday lunch time, but the pipes
are held on with silly one-use clips. I took one clip off as a test and they
are easy to get back on if you can get room to fit a hand and pliers, but
the ones under the thermostat have little access so I can't get the clips
back on (one is held on with a cable tie for now!!). I figured that as I
couldn't get the pipes clipped back on, I did the sensible thing and didn't
take them off. I've now been out and bought some jubilee clips (didn't have
any lying around), so I can at least remove the part and replace it - but
another thing that stumped me is how to drain the system?

I found the bleed screw on the radiator, I can't see a drain plug and can't
find reference to one online anywhere! If there is no drain plug, then I'll
just pull off the lowest pipe from the thermostat and let it pour into a
milk carton or something, but I would expect a drain point somewhere??

On 14/12/2010 09:51, GT wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> In alt.autos.alfa-romeo,
>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> Mine's a 2002, 156 Petrol 2.0 JTS. Anyone know where the thermostat is
>>> and
>>> how easy the job is? Should I even consider changing it myself? I'm
>>> proficient with the spanner and screwdriver, but I won't go near anything
>>> critical - ie: if its in there with the timing belt and pump etc, then
>>> I'm
>>> not going there! If it is inline with the cooling pipes and radiator,
>>> then I'll
>>> consider it.
>>
>> Thermostat is on the side of the cylinderhead. Not very hard to change,
>> remove air intake tube to get access. And don't forget to drain the
>> coolant first!
>
> Sorry to drag this one out guys, but...
>
> The new thermo finally arrived last week (about 10 days delivery 'cos of
> weather delays!) and I had a go at it yesterday lunch time, but the pipes
> are held on with silly one-use clips. I took one clip off as a test and they
> are easy to get back on if you can get room to fit a hand and pliers, but
> the ones under the thermostat have little access so I can't get the clips
> back on (one is held on with a cable tie for now!!). I figured that as I
> couldn't get the pipes clipped back on, I did the sensible thing and didn't
> take them off. I've now been out and bought some jubilee clips (didn't have
> any lying around),

Wonderful things.

so I can at least remove the part and replace it - but
> another thing that stumped me is how to drain the system?
>
> I found the bleed screw on the radiator, I can't see a drain plug and can't
> find reference to one online anywhere! If there is no drain plug, then I'll
> just pull off the lowest pipe from the thermostat and let it pour into a
> milk carton or something, but I would expect a drain point somewhere??

Personally I can't recall ever using a drain point on any car, but
that's just me


--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
#www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

In alt.autos.alfa-romeo,
GT > wrote:
> "Stef" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In alt.autos.alfa-romeo,
>> GT > wrote:
>>>
>>> Mine's a 2002, 156 Petrol 2.0 JTS. Anyone know where the thermostat is
>>> and
>>> how easy the job is? Should I even consider changing it myself? I'm
>>> proficient with the spanner and screwdriver, but I won't go near anything
>>> critical - ie: if its in there with the timing belt and pump etc, then
>>> I'm
>>> not going there! If it is inline with the cooling pipes and radiator,
>>> then I'll
>>> consider it.
>>
>> Thermostat is on the side of the cylinderhead. Not very hard to change,
>> remove air intake tube to get access. And don't forget to drain the
>> coolant first!
>
> Sorry to drag this one out guys, but...
>
> The new thermo finally arrived last week (about 10 days delivery 'cos of
> weather delays!) and I had a go at it yesterday lunch time, but the pipes
> are held on with silly one-use clips. I took one clip off as a test and they
> are easy to get back on if you can get room to fit a hand and pliers, but
> the ones under the thermostat have little access so I can't get the clips
> back on (one is held on with a cable tie for now!!). I figured that as I
> couldn't get the pipes clipped back on, I did the sensible thing and didn't
> take them off. I've now been out and bought some jubilee clips (didn't have
> any lying around), so I can at least remove the part and replace it - but
> another thing that stumped me is how to drain the system?
>
> I found the bleed screw on the radiator, I can't see a drain plug and can't
> find reference to one online anywhere! If there is no drain plug, then I'll
> just pull off the lowest pipe from the thermostat and let it pour into a
> milk carton or something, but I would expect a drain point somewhere??

If you really want all fluid out: The bottom hose of the radiator has a
quick disconnect. Squeeze the metal ring and pull the hose out. Fluid
will drain very quickly from hose and radiator, so you will need a big
container to catch most of the 2 streams. You will need to remove
under engine shield and air filter IIRC.

Gently draining from the thermostat hoses directly may take a bit longer
but does not require you to remove engine shield and air filter. And you
only need to drain about half the contents of the system. So this was my
preferred option when I did the thermostat on my 156 (2001 TS) on the
parking lot. Make sure you put some containers under the car for those
unexpected spills when a hose or thermostat comes off. Actually changing
the thermostat is less work than draining the system without making a
mess in my experience.


--
Stef (remove caps, dashes and .invalid from e-mail address to reply by mail)

I remember Ulysses well... Left one day for the post office to mail a letter,
met a blonde named Circe on the streetcar, and didn't come back for 20 years.

"Stef" > wrote in message
. ..
> In alt.autos.alfa-romeo,
> GT > wrote:
>> "Stef" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> In alt.autos.alfa-romeo,
>>> GT > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mine's a 2002, 156 Petrol 2.0 JTS. Anyone know where the thermostat is
>>>> and
>>>> how easy the job is? Should I even consider changing it myself? I'm
>>>> proficient with the spanner and screwdriver, but I won't go near
>>>> anything
>>>> critical - ie: if its in there with the timing belt and pump etc, then
>>>> I'm
>>>> not going there! If it is inline with the cooling pipes and radiator,
>>>> then I'll
>>>> consider it.
>>>
>>> Thermostat is on the side of the cylinderhead. Not very hard to change,
>>> remove air intake tube to get access. And don't forget to drain the
>>> coolant first!
>>
>> Sorry to drag this one out guys, but...
>>
>> The new thermo finally arrived last week (about 10 days delivery 'cos of
>> weather delays!) and I had a go at it yesterday lunch time, but the pipes
>> are held on with silly one-use clips. I took one clip off as a test and
>> they
>> are easy to get back on if you can get room to fit a hand and pliers, but
>> the ones under the thermostat have little access so I can't get the clips
>> back on (one is held on with a cable tie for now!!). I figured that as I
>> couldn't get the pipes clipped back on, I did the sensible thing and
>> didn't
>> take them off. I've now been out and bought some jubilee clips (didn't
>> have
>> any lying around), so I can at least remove the part and replace it - but
>> another thing that stumped me is how to drain the system?
>>
>> I found the bleed screw on the radiator, I can't see a drain plug and
>> can't
>> find reference to one online anywhere! If there is no drain plug, then
>> I'll
>> just pull off the lowest pipe from the thermostat and let it pour into a
>> milk carton or something, but I would expect a drain point somewhere??
>
> If you really want all fluid out: The bottom hose of the radiator has a
> quick disconnect. Squeeze the metal ring and pull the hose out. Fluid
> will drain very quickly from hose and radiator, so you will need a big
> container to catch most of the 2 streams. You will need to remove
> under engine shield and air filter IIRC.
>
> Gently draining from the thermostat hoses directly may take a bit longer
> but does not require you to remove engine shield and air filter. And you
> only need to drain about half the contents of the system. So this was my
> preferred option when I did the thermostat on my 156 (2001 TS) on the
> parking lot. Make sure you put some containers under the car for those
> unexpected spills when a hose or thermostat comes off. Actually changing
> the thermostat is less work than draining the system without making a
> mess in my experience.

Fair enough - that was my backup plan anyway if I couldn't drain it!

"Catman" > wrote in message
...
> On 14/12/2010 09:51, GT wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> In alt.autos.alfa-romeo,
>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mine's a 2002, 156 Petrol 2.0 JTS. Anyone know where the thermostat is
>>>> and
>>>> how easy the job is? Should I even consider changing it myself? I'm
>>>> proficient with the spanner and screwdriver, but I won't go near
>>>> anything
>>>> critical - ie: if its in there with the timing belt and pump etc, then
>>>> I'm
>>>> not going there! If it is inline with the cooling pipes and radiator,
>>>> then I'll
>>>> consider it.
>>>
>>> Thermostat is on the side of the cylinderhead. Not very hard to change,
>>> remove air intake tube to get access. And don't forget to drain the
>>> coolant first!
>>
>> Sorry to drag this one out guys, but...
>>
>> The new thermo finally arrived last week (about 10 days delivery 'cos of
>> weather delays!) and I had a go at it yesterday lunch time, but the pipes
>> are held on with silly one-use clips. I took one clip off as a test and
>> they
>> are easy to get back on if you can get room to fit a hand and pliers, but
>> the ones under the thermostat have little access so I can't get the clips
>> back on (one is held on with a cable tie for now!!). I figured that as I
>> couldn't get the pipes clipped back on, I did the sensible thing and
>> didn't
>> take them off. I've now been out and bought some jubilee clips (didn't
>> have
>> any lying around),
>
> Wonderful things.
>
> so I can at least remove the part and replace it - but
>> another thing that stumped me is how to drain the system?
>>
>> I found the bleed screw on the radiator, I can't see a drain plug and
>> can't
>> find reference to one online anywhere! If there is no drain plug, then
>> I'll
>> just pull off the lowest pipe from the thermostat and let it pour into a
>> milk carton or something, but I would expect a drain point somewhere??
>
> Personally I can't recall ever using a drain point on any car, but that's
> just me

Quick and easy suites me, so its an old bit of pipe and a 4pt milk carton or
2...

"GT" > wrote in message
eb.com...
>I completely forgot to ask them to change the thermostat at my last
>service. The temp gauge sits around or below 70 and should be at 90. In the
>recent cold weather, it has hardly gone over 65 and it takes about 20
>minutes before proper hot air comes through to the cabin. Its always been
>low, but it seems to be getting worse. The GT I had last month was warm
>within a few minutes and blowing hot air at me after about 3 miles!

Thank you all for your help over the last few weeks on this matter. I can
now report that it is sorted out. Mr Moose is up.. its done.. done...
done...

Put the front half of the car in the garage yesterday (junk in other half)
and spent all yesterday evening under the hood. Took air hose off, took out
battery, took out battery tray and got good access to the thermostat
housing. Pulled the hose off easily [1] and gravity drained and caught the
fluid. Replaced the thermostat housing and sensor [2] and filled up again.
Put everything back on and closed my eyes and turned the key. Within 2
minutes, warm air through vents. Quick drive round block and engine temp
hits about 91 (was peaking at about 55-60 after 10 mins down motorway last
week), heaters make my toes warm again. Happy bunny.

Took about 2 hours to get the forker off and another 2 to filter the fluid
through an old sock and get everything back on. I could have halved the time
with a socket set, but my £4.99 'fathers day present' spanner set and a
screwdriver got the job done! It feels like I took the skin off about 12 of
my knuckles, but sense of achievement overrides that!

Not bad for a soft-handed, indoor, IT type!!

[1] - squeeze the hoze with pliers just above the end of the pipe that the
hose is over.
[2] - yes there was a sensor in there - I just unscrewed it and put it in
the new housing.

Thanks for your help yesterday.
GT

PS. One more thing - the system is self-bleeding, right? That is what I have
read on the interweb.

On 15/12/2010 09:32, GT wrote:
> > wrote in message
> eb.com...
>> I completely forgot to ask them to change the thermostat at my last
>> service. The temp gauge sits around or below 70 and should be at 90. In the
>> recent cold weather, it has hardly gone over 65 and it takes about 20
>> minutes before proper hot air comes through to the cabin. Its always been
>> low, but it seems to be getting worse. The GT I had last month was warm
>> within a few minutes and blowing hot air at me after about 3 miles!
>
> Thank you all for your help over the last few weeks on this matter. I can
> now report that it is sorted out. Mr Moose is up.. its done.. done...
> done...

>
> Put the front half of the car in the garage yesterday (junk in other half)
> and spent all yesterday evening under the hood. Took air hose off, took out
> battery, took out battery tray and got good access to the thermostat
> housing. Pulled the hose off easily [1] and gravity drained and caught the
> fluid. Replaced the thermostat housing and sensor [2] and filled up again.
> Put everything back on and closed my eyes and turned the key. Within 2
> minutes, warm air through vents. Quick drive round block and engine temp
> hits about 91 (was peaking at about 55-60 after 10 mins down motorway last
> week), heaters make my toes warm again. Happy bunny.

/me looks quietly smug

>
> Took about 2 hours to get the forker off and another 2 to filter the fluid
> through an old sock and get everything back on. I could have halved the time
> with a socket set, but my £4.99 'fathers day present' spanner set and a
> screwdriver got the job done! It feels like I took the skin off about 12 of
> my knuckles, but sense of achievement overrides that!
>
> Not bad for a soft-handed, indoor, IT type!!
>
> [1] - squeeze the hoze with pliers just above the end of the pipe that the
> hose is over.
> [2] - yes there was a sensor in there - I just unscrewed it and put it in
> the new housing.
>
> Thanks for your help yesterday.
> GT
>
> PS. One more thing - the system is self-bleeding, right? That is what I have
> read on the interweb.

No idea.


--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 GTV TS GT 3.2 V6
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
#www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk