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Alfa 156 JTD



 
 
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  #31  
Old April 12th 10, 12:30 PM posted to alt.autos.alfa-romeo
Zathras
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 742
Default Alfa 156 JTD

On Sun, 11 Apr 2010 15:00:53 +0100, (SteveH)
wrote:

>Agreed - 6-pots aren't the way forward. Everyone wants a small capacity
>turbo these days.


I'm not so sure..diesel has still got traction and the price equality
between diesel and petrol helps diesel sales. I'm also not sure that
the smaller turbo petrols (1.4-2.0 ish segment) will really give
diesel that much to worry about in real world fuel economy.

An example of this is that I can *easily* get 60mpg at 60mph out of my
3 litre. It's a big, heavy 4 door saloon but can still do 7.4 to
100kph and 144 top. The latest version of that engine (in the 330d)
does 6.1(!!) to 100kph and 155 limited and has better fuel economy
than mine. I just can't help feeling that even good turbo petrols are
going to have a tough time pulling off both those tricks in a similar
sized car.

>In the BMW range - the biggest sellers are cars with the 2.0 4-pot
>diesel - both in the 1, 3 and 5. (this lump is badged as a 116, 118,
>120, 318, 320 and 520, along with the X1 and X3 - don't think the X5 got
>the 2.0 option, though)


I don't really think Alfa can properly compete in the 2.0 diesel
sector as they've not got the reputation, sales and service capacity
and that market is saturated by more popular makes. Tends to make me
think they should be pushing the envelope upwards and attempting to
compete with the bigger boys. Hassle is that the reasons I gave for
their failure in the lower segments would probably hinder them in the
upper ones too. cf the 166. Some might risk buying some junk for
20,000UKP but fewer will for 40,000UKP. One escape would have been if
the Mito had had a pretty front end..build up volume in smaller cars.
Oh no, Fiat wouldn't allow that!

>> What would be interesting would be if they could increase the current
>> 5 to a 3 litre capacity to attempt to compete against the 3 litre
>> German opposition. Pumping more and more fuel into the 2.4 is going to
>> fail because many buy diesels for fuel efficiency and there is already
>> increased competition from smaller capacity turbo petrol engines.

>
>Hmmmm, I think 2.4 is pushing the limits of the block already - remember
>it was originally a 2.0 5-pot.


Indeed, I forgot about that. I was thinking that the 2.4 was one
cylinder added to a 1.9 block. Instead the 1.9 is probably one
cylinder lopped off the 2.4.

>I see Alfa in the Volvo / Saab / VW sector. Which appears to be dead on
>its feet. They wouldn't want to enter the mainstream with Ford / GM and
>the French, can't step up to the BMW / Mercedes class, so sit in that
>middle ground.


Yep..that's what I was getting at but didn't explain as well as you.
The trouble is that they're in a no-man's land largely appealing to
Alfa enthusiasts only.

>Strangely, a 159 is a much more attractive package than a Mondeo - you
>get a lot more car for your money - but that may be because Ford seem to
>be intent on pricing themselves out of the market these days. (Of our
>company car proposed list - Prius, Insight and Focus Econetic - the
>Focus is the lowest power, lowest spec. and highest price).


How many non-Alfisti even have Alfa on their radar now?

>> I just wish Alfa could do better but with bugger all dealers and
>> limited choice of premium saloon car it's an uphill task. I mean,
>> where were Alfa when the premium saloon knocked the Mondeo into touch?

>
>Alfa were there at the start of the Mondeo's decline - think back to how
>many 156s were shifted into the fleet market in the late 90s. Sadly the
>156 soldiered on for too long before the 159 came along - then Alfa
>appeared to lose interest in fleet sales.


I don't really know what happened there. I mean the best of the 156
cars (IMHO) were in 2001 roughly when sales also peaked. There were
tales of people only buying one Alfa then moving elsewhere due to
dissatisfaction with some element(s) of Alfa ownership but I also
wonder if Giugiaro messed up the aspirational 156 look - he did for
me.

I didn't look at the post facelift cars and say "I've got to have one
of those" but I certainly did with the original Da Silva car before my
wife told me to get one! She now much prefers the Beemer but my 7 year
old daughter wants the Alfa back!

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather (sold)
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email must have the word 'Alfa' in the
subject line to get through auto-filtering)
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  #32  
Old April 12th 10, 05:22 PM posted to alt.autos.alfa-romeo
Jim[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 68
Default Alfa 156 JTD

On 12/04/2010 12:30, Zathras wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Apr 2010 15:00:53 +0100, (SteveH)
> wrote:
>
>> Agreed - 6-pots aren't the way forward. Everyone wants a small capacity
>> turbo these days.

>
> I'm not so sure..diesel has still got traction and the price equality
> between diesel and petrol helps diesel sales. I'm also not sure that
> the smaller turbo petrols (1.4-2.0 ish segment) will really give
> diesel that much to worry about in real world fuel economy.
>
> An example of this is that I can *easily* get 60mpg at 60mph out of my
> 3 litre. It's a big, heavy 4 door saloon but can still do 7.4 to
> 100kph and 144 top. The latest version of that engine (in the 330d)
> does 6.1(!!) to 100kph and 155 limited and has better fuel economy
> than mine. I just can't help feeling that even good turbo petrols are
> going to have a tough time pulling off both those tricks in a similar
> sized car.
>
>> In the BMW range - the biggest sellers are cars with the 2.0 4-pot
>> diesel - both in the 1, 3 and 5. (this lump is badged as a 116, 118,
>> 120, 318, 320 and 520, along with the X1 and X3 - don't think the X5 got
>> the 2.0 option, though)

>
> I don't really think Alfa can properly compete in the 2.0 diesel
> sector as they've not got the reputation, sales and service capacity
> and that market is saturated by more popular makes. Tends to make me
> think they should be pushing the envelope upwards and attempting to
> compete with the bigger boys. Hassle is that the reasons I gave for
> their failure in the lower segments would probably hinder them in the
> upper ones too. cf the 166. Some might risk buying some junk for
> 20,000UKP but fewer will for 40,000UKP. One escape would have been if
> the Mito had had a pretty front end..build up volume in smaller cars.
> Oh no, Fiat wouldn't allow that!
>
>>> What would be interesting would be if they could increase the current
>>> 5 to a 3 litre capacity to attempt to compete against the 3 litre
>>> German opposition. Pumping more and more fuel into the 2.4 is going to
>>> fail because many buy diesels for fuel efficiency and there is already
>>> increased competition from smaller capacity turbo petrol engines.

>>
>> Hmmmm, I think 2.4 is pushing the limits of the block already - remember
>> it was originally a 2.0 5-pot.

>
> Indeed, I forgot about that. I was thinking that the 2.4 was one
> cylinder added to a 1.9 block. Instead the 1.9 is probably one
> cylinder lopped off the 2.4.
>
>> I see Alfa in the Volvo / Saab / VW sector. Which appears to be dead on
>> its feet. They wouldn't want to enter the mainstream with Ford / GM and
>> the French, can't step up to the BMW / Mercedes class, so sit in that
>> middle ground.

>
> Yep..that's what I was getting at but didn't explain as well as you.
> The trouble is that they're in a no-man's land largely appealing to
> Alfa enthusiasts only.
>
>> Strangely, a 159 is a much more attractive package than a Mondeo - you
>> get a lot more car for your money - but that may be because Ford seem to
>> be intent on pricing themselves out of the market these days. (Of our
>> company car proposed list - Prius, Insight and Focus Econetic - the
>> Focus is the lowest power, lowest spec. and highest price).

>
> How many non-Alfisti even have Alfa on their radar now?
>
>>> I just wish Alfa could do better but with bugger all dealers and
>>> limited choice of premium saloon car it's an uphill task. I mean,
>>> where were Alfa when the premium saloon knocked the Mondeo into touch?

>>
>> Alfa were there at the start of the Mondeo's decline - think back to how
>> many 156s were shifted into the fleet market in the late 90s. Sadly the
>> 156 soldiered on for too long before the 159 came along - then Alfa
>> appeared to lose interest in fleet sales.

>
> I don't really know what happened there. I mean the best of the 156
> cars (IMHO) were in 2001 roughly when sales also peaked. There were
> tales of people only buying one Alfa then moving elsewhere due to
> dissatisfaction with some element(s) of Alfa ownership but I also
> wonder if Giugiaro messed up the aspirational 156 look - he did for
> me.
>
> I didn't look at the post facelift cars and say "I've got to have one
> of those" but I certainly did with the original Da Silva car before my
> wife told me to get one! She now much prefers the Beemer but my 7 year
> old daughter wants the Alfa back!
>

Out of the mouths of babes......
  #33  
Old April 12th 10, 11:11 PM posted to alt.autos.alfa-romeo
David A Stocks[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13
Default Alfa 156 JTD

"SteveH" > wrote in message
...

>
> I've not looked under the bonnet of the 159, so don't know how
> comfortable the 5-pots are in there - I know they're tight in a 156, but
> the 159 is a much bigger car.
>

It's a *very* tight fit under the bonnet of the Brera, which I imagine is
much the same as the 159.

DAS

  #34  
Old April 12th 10, 11:32 PM posted to alt.autos.alfa-romeo
Steve H on the road[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default Alfa 156 JTD


"Zathras" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 11 Apr 2010 15:00:53 +0100, (SteveH)
> wrote:
>
>>Agreed - 6-pots aren't the way forward. Everyone wants a small capacity
>>turbo these days.

>
> I'm not so sure..diesel has still got traction and the price equality
> between diesel and petrol helps diesel sales. I'm also not sure that
> the smaller turbo petrols (1.4-2.0 ish segment) will really give
> diesel that much to worry about in real world fuel economy.


Sorry - I meant 'small capacity turbo - either petrol or diesel'

> An example of this is that I can *easily* get 60mpg at 60mph out of my
> 3 litre. It's a big, heavy 4 door saloon but can still do 7.4 to
> 100kph and 144 top. The latest version of that engine (in the 330d)
> does 6.1(!!) to 100kph and 155 limited and has better fuel economy
> than mine. I just can't help feeling that even good turbo petrols are
> going to have a tough time pulling off both those tricks in a similar
> sized car.


Yet I struggled to top low 40s in a 320d....

> I don't really think Alfa can properly compete in the 2.0 diesel
> sector as they've not got the reputation, sales and service capacity
> and that market is saturated by more popular makes. Tends to make me
> think they should be pushing the envelope upwards and attempting to
> compete with the bigger boys. Hassle is that the reasons I gave for
> their failure in the lower segments would probably hinder them in the
> upper ones too. cf the 166. Some might risk buying some junk for
> 20,000UKP but fewer will for 40,000UKP. One escape would have been if
> the Mito had had a pretty front end..build up volume in smaller cars.
> Oh no, Fiat wouldn't allow that!


Hmmmm - most sub 2lt 4-pot diesels are trash. Haven't tried the 1.9-150 -
only the 1.9-120. Want to try the new 2.0 and 1.6 takes on it, though.

The 1.9-120 was pretty good in a Brava - certainly a lot better than the
Ford / PSA 1.6TDCI of similar (110) power.

>
> I don't really know what happened there. I mean the best of the 156
> cars (IMHO) were in 2001 roughly when sales also peaked. There were
> tales of people only buying one Alfa then moving elsewhere due to
> dissatisfaction with some element(s) of Alfa ownership but I also
> wonder if Giugiaro messed up the aspirational 156 look - he did for
> me.
>
> I didn't look at the post facelift cars and say "I've got to have one
> of those" but I certainly did with the original Da Silva car before my
> wife told me to get one! She now much prefers the Beemer but my 7 year
> old daughter wants the Alfa back!


I think our 156 is just about the best combination:

Sportwagon
Original body
Facelift interior
TS, rather than JTS engine.

Ignore the Sillyspeed, though ;-)

--
SteveH
Somewhere Sarf of Lahndan

  #35  
Old April 13th 10, 07:11 PM posted to alt.autos.alfa-romeo
Zathras
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 742
Default Alfa 156 JTD

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:32:13 +0100, "Steve H on the road"
> wrote:

>
>"Zathras" > wrote in message
.. .


>> An example of this is that I can *easily* get 60mpg at 60mph


>Yet I struggled to top low 40s in a 320d....


...but if you sat it at a constant 60mph, I bet it would give better
than 60mpg. My 325d would get mid to upper 30s if I wasn't careful so
I'm surprised how poor the supposed more economical 320d was for you.
What my example was emphasizing was the efficiency of diesel at part
'throttle'.

>I think our 156 is just about the best combination:
>
>Sportwagon
>Original body
>Facelift interior
>TS, rather than JTS engine.
>
>Ignore the Sillyspeed, though ;-)


If it has the dual zone improved A/C then that might compensate a bit
for the Harlem smoke stack! ;-)

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather (sold)
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email must have the word 'Alfa' in the
subject line to get through auto-filtering)
  #36  
Old April 13th 10, 07:21 PM posted to alt.autos.alfa-romeo
Zathras
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 742
Default Alfa 156 JTD

On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:11:47 +0100, "David A Stocks"
> wrote:

>"SteveH" > wrote in message
.. .
>
>>
>> I've not looked under the bonnet of the 159, so don't know how
>> comfortable the 5-pots are in there - I know they're tight in a 156, but
>> the 159 is a much bigger car.
>>

>It's a *very* tight fit under the bonnet of the Brera, which I imagine is
>much the same as the 159.


That figures, if the 159 has a wider wheelbase at the front than the
156, they might have clawed space back to reduce the huge turning
circle. I know the suspension is different in the 159 (and relatives)
so this may have impacted the available space too. Regardless, it
sounds as if the 159 engine bay is a similar size to the 156.

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather (sold)
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email must have the word 'Alfa' in the
subject line to get through auto-filtering)
  #37  
Old April 15th 10, 01:52 PM posted to alt.autos.alfa-romeo
GT[_13_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default Alfa 156 JTD

"Zathras" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 15:18:37 +0100, Jim > wrote:
>
>>My post may be rude but it is a fact that much/most rudeness on the road
>>is from BMW drivers.....

>
> LOL. And your *fact* is based on what..? I'm a BMW driver now but I
> was a longer term Alfa owner until recently. Clearly I must have
> suddenly changed personality just because of a car I bought? Hmmmm...


Does yours have the new 'psychic link technology' that most BMW drivers rely
on? Most of the BMWs that I encounter don't have indicators fitted at all -
a BMW driver doesn't need them because other drivers around him already know
where he wants to go and should move out of the BMWs way. If they don't then
an accident or near miss occurs and the BMW driver has to resort to the old
fashioned, manual procedure of engaging eye contact and offering a hand
guesture of some kind. Its a shame this technology isn't fitted to other
cars - it could avoid a lot of inconvenience all round.


  #38  
Old April 16th 10, 05:51 AM posted to alt.autos.alfa-romeo
Jim[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 68
Default Alfa 156 JTD

On 15/04/2010 13:52, GT wrote:
> m> wrote in message
> ...
>> On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 15:18:37 +0100, > wrote:
>>
>>> My post may be rude but it is a fact that much/most rudeness on the road
>>> is from BMW drivers.....

>>
>> LOL. And your *fact* is based on what..? I'm a BMW driver now but I
>> was a longer term Alfa owner until recently. Clearly I must have
>> suddenly changed personality just because of a car I bought? Hmmmm...

>
> Does yours have the new 'psychic link technology' that most BMW drivers rely
> on? Most of the BMWs that I encounter don't have indicators fitted at all -
> a BMW driver doesn't need them because other drivers around him already know
> where he wants to go and should move out of the BMWs way. If they don't then
> an accident or near miss occurs and the BMW driver has to resort to the old
> fashioned, manual procedure of engaging eye contact and offering a hand
> guesture of some kind. Its a shame this technology isn't fitted to other
> cars - it could avoid a lot of inconvenience all round.
>
>

Yes, that about sums it up! It's what I call rude!!

Of course there WILL be exceptions but the company they keep is 'iffy'.
 




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