Delphi

C. E. White wrote:

> Even Toyota is using Delphi parts. Are you saying we shouldn't rely on
> Toyota now becasue they are using Delphi parts?
>
> Ed

I'm well aware of the Delco (mostly at time of manufacture) parts used
by Toyota. They are the parts that by and large have horrific failure
rates. Make of that what you will.

Many chose not to believe that Delco(phi) products generally suck. Are
you one of them?

Toyota MDT in MO

C. E. White wrote:

> "Comboverfish" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>
>>I know what you are saying, but it is quite funny to see "rely" and
>>"Delphi" in the same sentence.
>
>
> Even Toyota is using Delphi parts. Are you saying we shouldn't rely on
> Toyota now becasue they are using Delphi parts?
>


I don't rely on them because they still use a few Toyota parts :-p

"C. E. White" > wrote in message
...

> So why is it that Visteon (the Ford equivalent of Delphi), instead of
> declaring bankruptcy, was able to force (coerce, persuade) Ford to take
back
> 17 money losing plants and their UAW workers, and Delphi wasn't able to do
> the same to GM? Seems to me that GM is getting the better deal. Delphi can
> go bankrupt, cancel pensions, layoff union workers, and pay the executives
> big bucks, without saddling GM with the UAW workers. Ford gets stuck
holding
> the bag. Did the UAW get a better deal when Ford spun off Visteon?
>
> Ed

GM spun off Delphi some time back, according to what I read. GM would have
no
accountability or responsibility whatever, unless agreed to at the time of
the spinoff.

And since GM is in deep doo itself, it might conceivably follow Delphi's
suit and
wipe the slate clean.

I don't know what would happen to the stockholders in such a case. In the
worst case,
the stocks would become valueless and a new company would be incorporated, I
guess.
As a better case, the stockholders would take a value hit, but might hope to
come out
on top as the company restructures.

Ford is in as bad shape as, or more likely worse than, GM. And the
problems are more
or less the same...unlivable contracts, high costs, and a run of really
serious recalls.

Management (or Miss Management, as the case may be) protects itself, is my
point.
Had Miss Management been better, perhaps the issues that lead to this
failure might
have been minimized or eliminated early on.

I do not in any way defend unionized labor to the point that it destroys
the industry
it services. If it sounded that way, I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

"Comboverfish" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> C. E. White wrote:
>
> > Even Toyota is using Delphi parts. Are you saying we shouldn't rely on
> > Toyota now because they are using Delphi parts?
> >
> > Ed
>
> I'm well aware of the Delco (mostly at time of manufacture) parts used
> by Toyota. They are the parts that by and large have horrific failure
> rates. Make of that what you will.
>
> Many chose not to believe that Delco(phi) products generally suck. Are
> you one of them?

I don't know my experience with Delco products has been limited. I had a
Jensen-Healey that came with a European Delco alternator. It failed and
parts were impossible to find. I replaced it with a Lucas alternator from a
wrecked car (same mounts and pulley sizes). We converted an old farm tractor
to 12V using a Delco alternator and it never gave us any problems. We had
another farm tractor with a Delco generator (and I mean the old style with a
commutator) - again trouble free for 30 years. I currently own a Saturn and
haven't had any problems at all for the first 2 years and 38,000 miles. On
the other hand I have heard horror stories about certain GM air conditioning
compressors (R4?), and in general it seems that older GM alternators have a
higher failure rate that others. But then the worst alternators I owned were
on Japanese cars. The Toyota I owned ate alternators. You could pretty much
guarantee that it would fail in August. My ex would usually have it fail
while putting around town on a hundred degree day. Likewise, my SO had her
Toyota eat an alternator. All things considered, based solely on personal
experience and the experience of those close to me, I'd say most Delco stuff
is about average as far as reliability goes. They have good parts and bad
parts, just like most other part suppliers. I would hope that the vehicle
manufacturer would require testing and quality control procedures sufficient
to insure that the parts were of the required quality.

Do you think Toyota allows Delphi to ship them lower quality parts than
those they get from other suppliers? If so why? Politics, price, bad
decision, delivery date, availability? I know both Visteon and Delphi have
been trying hard to sell to the import brands with some success.

Ed

C. E. White wrote:
But then the worst alternators I owned were
> on Japanese cars. The Toyota I owned ate alternators. You could pretty much
> guarantee that it would fail in August. My ex would usually have it fail
> while putting around town on a hundred degree day. Likewise, my SO had her
> Toyota eat an alternator.

If these Toyotas were 90's era Corollas, they (mostly) used the small
Delco CS alternator. They would fail in ~ 30k miles pretty regularly
and would RARELY exceed 100k.

If you were refering to Nippon Denso alternators (every model except
Corolla), I can't see why you have experienced so much trouble with
them. They are extremely hearty; a unit with 150k+ miles may come in
occasionally in need of brushes but you will rarely see a regulator,
rectifier set, or rotor/stator/bearing failure. This said, some of the
newer ones circa 2000-up I *have* seen generate either a faint bearing
noise or some sort of magnetic resonance induced whine on several fully
loaded models. Replacement units under warranty fixed this complaint.
I think they may be slightly underdesigned for the task these days.

I think it is possible you are were experiencing repeat failure due to
poor reman units. Yes, the aftermarket is full of junk remans, filled
with crap regulator and rectifier parts. This is no knock on original
ND alternators. ND alternators can use a set of brushes every 150k and
ND starters can use a set of solenoid contacts every 100k. That's
pretty reliable in my book.


> Do you think Toyota allows Delphi to ship them lower quality parts than
> those they get from other suppliers? If so why? Politics, price, bad
> decision, delivery date, availability? I know both Visteon and Delphi have
> been trying hard to sell to the import brands with some success.

I think the Toyota procured Delco(phi) parts quality is the same as the
Delco(phi) stuff used by everyone else. Delco(phi) has, however,
proved inferior to the standard brands of comparable items that Toyota
uses. In one unique case, Toyota bought the existing Delphi power
sliding door system for their new 98 Sienna body. This is an feature
that Toyota never had before and therefore was no "Toyota benchmark"
for comparison. It turned out to be a POS system with failures of
every mode and variety. It can't be proven that another manufacturer
would have done better, but do you really think anyone could have done
worse?

In the case of the 84-87 Nova/Corolla, 88-92 Geo Prizm/Corolla, 93-97
Geo Prizm/Corolla, and 98-02 Chevy Prizm/Corolla, Toyota made the
vehicles. GM only changed the name plates and various minor items such
as trim, HVAC setup, and radios. I assume that, out of this long
period of business transactions, the use of Delco alternators and
Harrison radiators (both junk parts) on Corollas began. I also assume
it was to save money. The Corolla has seemed like an overpriced
economy car since the 1988 bodystyle IMO, and I think they wanted to
reduce cost where possible to keep it competitive.

Toyota MDT in MO

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, C. E. White wrote:

> On the other hand I have heard horror stories about certain GM air
> conditioning compressors (R4?)

Yep, R4s in particular -- you can't keep shaft seals in them.

> and in general it seems that older GM alternators have a higher failure
> rate that others.

Naw, the *newer* GM alternators are the short-lived ones.

"Comboverfish" > wrote in message
ups.com...

> If these Toyotas were 90's era Corollas, they (mostly) used the small
> Delco CS alternator. They would fail in ~ 30k miles pretty regularly
> and would RARELY exceed 100k.

My problem alternator was on an '80's era Cressida. As long as my ex was
working, we had no problems with the alternator. After she became a stay at
home, she cooked it every summer. It was the internal regulator that failed.
I never bought a remanufactured unit because no one stocked them. Only
source was the local Toyota dealer. How maybe they were selling me crap, but
I'd hope not (especially considering how much they cost). I blamed the
failure on a combination of factors - 1) the alternator was in a horrible
location - next to the exhaust manifold with very restricted air flow, 2)
high electrical demands in the summer (A/C, lights, radio), 3) the
alternator was undersized for electrical load, 4)after my ex quit work, she
never drove the car on the highway. She was always putting around in stop
and go traffic. The failures were always during the middle of a very hot
day. After the third failure I took the alternator to a local rebuilder. He
sold me the regulator and some thermal grease (much cheaper than buying a
Toyota alternator). He indicated it was a common problem.

Ed

Daniel J. Stern wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, C. E. White wrote:
>> and in general it seems that older GM alternators have a higher failure
>> rate that others.
>
> Naw, the *newer* GM alternators are the short-lived ones.

I'm not going to take sides, but the voltage regulator built into the
alternator in my '71 Grand Prix failed every week for nine weeks before
they got me a decent one. There was nothing else wrong with my car; the
parts dealers admitted GM was having a bad time with them.

--
If John McCain gets the 2008 Republican Presidential nomination,
my vote for President will be a write-in for Jiang Zemin.

On Sun, 16 Oct 2005, clifto wrote:

> I'm not going to take sides, but the voltage regulator built into the
> alternator in my '71 Grand Prix failed every week for nine weeks

Probably because it knew it didn't actually exist. The first year for
internal regulators in GM Delco alternators was *1972*.

> before they got me a decent one

Who's "they"?

Daniel J. Stern wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Oct 2005, clifto wrote:
>> I'm not going to take sides, but the voltage regulator built into the
>> alternator in my '71 Grand Prix failed every week for nine weeks
>
> Probably because it knew it didn't actually exist. The first year for
> internal regulators in GM Delco alternators was *1972*.

I took the alternator apart to get the regulator out of it. I know it
was there. I suggest you check your sources on that one. Believe me,
there is precious little I will ever forget about that piece of crap
automobile.

>> before they got me a decent one
>
> Who's "they"?

The parts store. It was probably under warranty, but I'd been fscked by
the car dealer several times before this as regards the warranty, and I
couldn't afford to let them keep it for a week or two while they
diagnosed the problem and another week or two while they waited for
parts (if indeed they found the problem instead of returning it to me
broken, "no problem found").

--
If John McCain gets the 2008 Republican Presidential nomination,
my vote for President will be a write-in for Jiang Zemin.