Rebuilding my 302!

Hi guys!
I've got a 69 mustang coupe I've had for several years now, that's a daily
driver. The engine has finally gotten to the point where I can't bear to
see my baby like that, so I pulled the engine a few days ago with the help
of my brother, a chevy guy.

Anyways, I'm not looking for a race car, just a nice driving mustang with a
little bit of git up and go. Actually the car with the engine almost blown
still had power to spare, if you can believe it.

I'm just looking for suggestions on minor things I should do, I know this
group has probably rebuilt thousands of 302's. I dropped the block off at
the shop today, they're boring it .030 over, and sanding and polishing the
crank, which we'll be reinstalling with 10 over bearings.

I'm thinking stock cam. Is that rediculous or alright for what I'm looking
for? Any tips or things I need to know while I'm doing this?

tranny is a c4 automatic, and the engine is the original 302. It appears
that it's never been rebuilt, and is actually the original engine from 69
according to the casting numbers. Heads are the stock C9OE's

Thanks for any replies!

Ron

If you are just going the standard re-build route you can stay with the
stock cam. One of the Hi-Energy sticks from Comp Cams will give you more
power with a smooth idle. The most important thing when doing this is the
quality of the work you get from the machine shop. I have lots of horror
stories. Are you going to re-assemble the engine or is the shop going to do
it? Ask the shop about putting hardened seats in the exhaust valves as I
believe this engine was never intended to run on unleaded gas.
Good Luck
Bill in Yakima



"Ron Lyons" > wrote in message
...
> Hi guys!
> I've got a 69 mustang coupe I've had for several years now, that's a
> daily driver. The engine has finally gotten to the point where I can't
> bear to see my baby like that, so I pulled the engine a few days ago with
> the help of my brother, a chevy guy.
>
> Anyways, I'm not looking for a race car, just a nice driving mustang with
> a little bit of git up and go. Actually the car with the engine almost
> blown still had power to spare, if you can believe it.
>
> I'm just looking for suggestions on minor things I should do, I know this
> group has probably rebuilt thousands of 302's. I dropped the block off at
> the shop today, they're boring it .030 over, and sanding and polishing the
> crank, which we'll be reinstalling with 10 over bearings.
>
> I'm thinking stock cam. Is that rediculous or alright for what I'm
> looking for? Any tips or things I need to know while I'm doing this?
>
> tranny is a c4 automatic, and the engine is the original 302. It appears
> that it's never been rebuilt, and is actually the original engine from 69
> according to the casting numbers. Heads are the stock C9OE's
>
> Thanks for any replies!
>
> Ron
>

(brain dump)

I would personally go with a retro-fit hydraulic roller cam. Run a
reltively mild duration (~270 deg) with good lift (475-480). Buy
hardened pushrods. Buy valvesprings, retainers and keepers that match
your cam.

A precision balance for your crank/rods/pistons would be a good idea too.

A good dual plane intake manifold (edelbrock still make a
performer/performerII?) with a 600 cfm carb (edelbrock or holley or ???).

Distributors are always overlooked for cars of your vintage. Think
before you put that ~25 year old distributor in your new engine. I would
look at a rebuilt/recurved *electronic ignition* distributor.

Gasket match the intake ports on your heads to your intake manifold. Do
the same for your exhaust ports.

Get some 1 1/2" or 15/8 exhaust headers for your car and new dual
exhaust. The factory exhaust manifolds are one of the worst performance
killers.

I would stay away from a high-volume oil pump for your application. I
would however buy a hardened oil pump driveshaft for the build.
Blueprint your oil pump.

I 100% agree with the machine shop statement. I take the stance that
your relationship with your machinist/builder/tuner should be closer
than the one you have with your wife/girlfriend (clothes on of course).
Having a shop who knows how to do a mild performance build is key; lots
of shops will just slap things together without being picky about things
like ring-end gaps, ring side clearances, piston-deck height,
piston-to-valve clearances, etc, etc, etc...

A great book on performance engine building and blueprinting;

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...otive&v=glance

My personal favorite small block ford bible;

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/091...lance&n=283155

You may not need every step in the book for a mild street performance
build, but it will give you an idea as to what the important details are.

Bill wrote:

> If you are just going the standard re-build route you can stay with the
> stock cam. One of the Hi-Energy sticks from Comp Cams will give you more
> power with a smooth idle. The most important thing when doing this is the
> quality of the work you get from the machine shop. I have lots of horror
> stories. Are you going to re-assemble the engine or is the shop going to do
> it? Ask the shop about putting hardened seats in the exhaust valves as I
> believe this engine was never intended to run on unleaded gas.
> Good Luck
> Bill in Yakima
>
>
>
> "Ron Lyons" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Hi guys!
>> I've got a 69 mustang coupe I've had for several years now, that's a
>>daily driver. The engine has finally gotten to the point where I can't
>>bear to see my baby like that, so I pulled the engine a few days ago with
>>the help of my brother, a chevy guy.
>>
>>Anyways, I'm not looking for a race car, just a nice driving mustang with
>>a little bit of git up and go. Actually the car with the engine almost
>>blown still had power to spare, if you can believe it.
>>
>>I'm just looking for suggestions on minor things I should do, I know this
>>group has probably rebuilt thousands of 302's. I dropped the block off at
>>the shop today, they're boring it .030 over, and sanding and polishing the
>>crank, which we'll be reinstalling with 10 over bearings.
>>
>>I'm thinking stock cam. Is that rediculous or alright for what I'm
>>looking for? Any tips or things I need to know while I'm doing this?
>>
>>tranny is a c4 automatic, and the engine is the original 302. It appears
>>that it's never been rebuilt, and is actually the original engine from 69
>>according to the casting numbers. Heads are the stock C9OE's
>>
>>Thanks for any replies!
>>
>>Ron
>>
>
>
>

"Bill" > wrote
>Ask the shop about putting hardened seats in the exhaust valves as I
>believe this engine was never intended to run on unleaded gas.

But for a daily driver it wouldn't really matter honestly. If he was gonna
put some "heat" into the cam then it might make sense.
--
Scott W.
'66 HCS Mustang 289
'68 Ranchero 500 302
'69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W
ThunderSnake #57
http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/

The car will run acceptably well with a standard rebuild.
If money is no object, and you want to mess with it a bit...
Have the cylinder heads done by someone who really knows what they are
doing. There is a ton of power in that 1/4 inch area around the valve seats.
The idea is to get air flowing at low valve lifts thus making the engine
more efficient. Multi angles, making sure the contact area of the seat is on
the top part of the valve, paying strict attention to seat width will pay
big dividends.
The second area that will unlock power is in the exhaust ports. That engine
should have heads with thermactor ports in the exhaust. Have someone cut
them out. Exhaust flow will be greatly improved. I asked a noted engine
builder about the small block Ford heads, he told me they flow so little
that almost anything you do is an improvement. The cost of having all of
that done you could probably just buy a set of the new GT-40 heads.
Does your machine shop use an automated honing machine? You want to use moly
rings and have the cylinder walls finished using the appropriate stones.
Using deck plates will also be beneficial.
Have the engine dynamically balanced.
Use a Ford duraspark distributor, have the advance re-curved for the
camshaft you are using. Use an MSD 6A.
You can use an aftermarket intake manifold and carb, or use one of the
aftermarket fuel injection systems.
If you want to see some serious RPM of the engine, you might also want to
consider using a set of Chevrolet connecting rods. The rods in the 302 are
the same length as the ones in the 289. With the increased stroke, the rod
length to stroke ratio is a little off, the rods really need to be
longer.Chevrolet rods work great after the Ford crank is turned down and
custom pistons are purchased.

OR you could just have your machine shop rebuild the engine to stock specs.
Having it balanced is a good idea. A good current grind camshaft will add
power without hurting fuel economy. If the shop doing the work is doing a
good job, they will inspect everything that goes back in and advise you of
anything that needs to be replaced.
Drive the car and have fun.
Good Luck
Bill
1965 GT-350 Shelby
Former NHRA Super Stock National Record Holder

> wrote in message ...
>
> (brain dump)
>
> I would personally go with a retro-fit hydraulic roller cam. Run a
> reltively mild duration (~270 deg) with good lift (475-480). Buy hardened
> pushrods. Buy valvesprings, retainers and keepers that match your cam.
>
> A precision balance for your crank/rods/pistons would be a good idea too.
>
> A good dual plane intake manifold (edelbrock still make a
> performer/performerII?) with a 600 cfm carb (edelbrock or holley or ???).
>
> Distributors are always overlooked for cars of your vintage. Think before
> you put that ~25 year old distributor in your new engine. I would look at
> a rebuilt/recurved *electronic ignition* distributor.
>
> Gasket match the intake ports on your heads to your intake manifold. Do
> the same for your exhaust ports.
>
> Get some 1 1/2" or 15/8 exhaust headers for your car and new dual exhaust.
> The factory exhaust manifolds are one of the worst performance killers.
>
> I would stay away from a high-volume oil pump for your application. I
> would however buy a hardened oil pump driveshaft for the build. Blueprint
> your oil pump.
>
> I 100% agree with the machine shop statement. I take the stance that your
> relationship with your machinist/builder/tuner should be closer than the
> one you have with your wife/girlfriend (clothes on of course). Having a
> shop who knows how to do a mild performance build is key; lots of shops
> will just slap things together without being picky about things like
> ring-end gaps, ring side clearances, piston-deck height, piston-to-valve
> clearances, etc, etc, etc...
>
> A great book on performance engine building and blueprinting;
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...otive&v=glance
>
> My personal favorite small block ford bible;
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/091...lance&n=283155
>
> You may not need every step in the book for a mild street performance
> build, but it will give you an idea as to what the important details are.
>
> Bill wrote:
>
>> If you are just going the standard re-build route you can stay with the
>> stock cam. One of the Hi-Energy sticks from Comp Cams will give you more
>> power with a smooth idle. The most important thing when doing this is the
>> quality of the work you get from the machine shop. I have lots of horror
>> stories. Are you going to re-assemble the engine or is the shop going to
>> do it? Ask the shop about putting hardened seats in the exhaust valves as
>> I believe this engine was never intended to run on unleaded gas.
>> Good Luck
>> Bill in Yakima
>>
>>
>>
>> "Ron Lyons" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>Hi guys!
>>> I've got a 69 mustang coupe I've had for several years now, that's a
>>> daily driver. The engine has finally gotten to the point where I can't
>>> bear to see my baby like that, so I pulled the engine a few days ago
>>> with the help of my brother, a chevy guy.
>>>
>>>Anyways, I'm not looking for a race car, just a nice driving mustang with
>>>a little bit of git up and go. Actually the car with the engine almost
>>>blown still had power to spare, if you can believe it.
>>>
>>>I'm just looking for suggestions on minor things I should do, I know this
>>>group has probably rebuilt thousands of 302's. I dropped the block off
>>>at the shop today, they're boring it .030 over, and sanding and polishing
>>>the crank, which we'll be reinstalling with 10 over bearings.
>>>
>>>I'm thinking stock cam. Is that rediculous or alright for what I'm
>>>looking for? Any tips or things I need to know while I'm doing this?
>>>
>>>tranny is a c4 automatic, and the engine is the original 302. It appears
>>>that it's never been rebuilt, and is actually the original engine from 69
>>>according to the casting numbers. Heads are the stock C9OE's
>>>
>>>Thanks for any replies!
>>>
>>>Ron
>>>
>>
>>

wrote:
>
> (brain dump)
>

Enlightened, I shall be!

> I would personally go with a retro-fit hydraulic roller cam. Run a
> reltively mild duration (~270 deg) with good lift (475-480). Buy
> hardened pushrods. Buy valvesprings, retainers and keepers that match
> your cam.
>

That's dead average on both counts.

> A precision balance for your crank/rods/pistons would be a good idea
> too.
>

And what does "precision" mean, exactly?

> A good dual plane intake manifold (edelbrock still make a
> performer/performerII?) with a 600 cfm carb (edelbrock or holley or ???).
>

What decade are you stuck in with that first question? And just
throwing Edelbrock in with Holley and three more question marks? IDIOT!

> Distributors are always overlooked for cars of your vintage. Think
> before you put that ~25 year old distributor in your new engine. I would
> look at a rebuilt/recurved *electronic ignition* distributor.
>

Oh, really? You mean that worn-out dizzy won't do the same as a new one
without the hindrance of old breaker points?

> Gasket match the intake ports on your heads to your intake manifold.
> Do the same for your exhaust ports.
>

Any fool knows this. I've never heard ANYONE say, "oh, leave the slop
on the gaskets; it helps".

> Get some 1 1/2" or 15/8 exhaust headers for your car and new dual
> exhaust. The factory exhaust manifolds are one of the worst performance
> killers.
>

Another exercise in obvious bull****. Really, no kidding, what purpose
do they serve? Think about what you're saying, it's all been said 1000
times in this NG alone in the past 8-10 years I've lurked and posted.
Yes, January 1996, in fact, before the golden years, and then after. I
missed them. You see, I was getting my Master's degree and screwing my
brains out.

> I would stay away from a high-volume oil pump for your application.
> I would however buy a hardened oil pump driveshaft for the build.
> Blueprint your oil pump.
>

Stock is good? Weak is the driveshaft? No ****? Man, it's epiphany
after ephiphany with this guy. 10 psi per 1000 rpm, did you know that
old-ass rule of thumb?

> I 100% agree with the machine shop statement. I take the stance that
> your relationship with your machinist/builder/tuner should be closer
> than the one you have with your wife/girlfriend (clothes on of course).
> Having a shop who knows how to do a mild performance build is key; lots
> of shops will just slap things together without being picky about things
> like ring-end gaps, ring side clearances, piston-deck height,
> piston-to-valve clearances, etc, etc, etc...
>

Any competent shop will ask you about all of the above. Your shop must
be staffed by half-witted **** stains.

> A great book on performance engine building and blueprinting;
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...otive&v=glance
>
>
> My personal favorite small block ford bible;
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/091...lance&n=283155
>

Yada yada my knowledge comes from Google and books.

SUCK IT, TREBEK

>
> You may not need every step in the book for a mild street
> performance build, but it will give you an idea as to what the important
> details are.
>
> Bill wrote:
>
>> If you are just going the standard re-build route you can stay with
>> the stock cam. One of the Hi-Energy sticks from Comp Cams will give
>> you more power with a smooth idle. The most important thing when doing
>> this is the quality of the work you get from the machine shop. I have
>> lots of horror stories. Are you going to re-assemble the engine or is
>> the shop going to do it? Ask the shop about putting hardened seats in
>> the exhaust valves as I believe this engine was never intended to run
>> on unleaded gas.
>> Good Luck
>> Bill in Yakima
>>
>>
>>
>> "Ron Lyons" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> Hi guys!
>>> I've got a 69 mustang coupe I've had for several years now, that's a
>>> daily driver. The engine has finally gotten to the point where I
>>> can't bear to see my baby like that, so I pulled the engine a few
>>> days ago with the help of my brother, a chevy guy.
>>>
>>> Anyways, I'm not looking for a race car, just a nice driving mustang
>>> with a little bit of git up and go. Actually the car with the engine
>>> almost blown still had power to spare, if you can believe it.
>>>
>>> I'm just looking for suggestions on minor things I should do, I know
>>> this group has probably rebuilt thousands of 302's. I dropped the
>>> block off at the shop today, they're boring it .030 over, and sanding
>>> and polishing the crank, which we'll be reinstalling with 10 over
>>> bearings.
>>>
>>> I'm thinking stock cam. Is that rediculous or alright for what I'm
>>> looking for? Any tips or things I need to know while I'm doing this?
>>>
>>> tranny is a c4 automatic, and the engine is the original 302. It
>>> appears that it's never been rebuilt, and is actually the original
>>> engine from 69 according to the casting numbers. Heads are the stock
>>> C9OE's
>>>
>>> Thanks for any replies!
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>
>>
>>


--
Wound Up
ThunderSnake #65

AHPBBFM posting rules: http://tinyurl.com/ak694
AHPBBFM links page: http://tinyurl.com/a9qsx

"Wound Up" > wrote

~SNIP~

Whazza matter......having trouble getting it up, tonite? ;-)

Hairy wrote:
> "Wound Up" > wrote
>
> ~SNIP~
>
> Whazza matter......having trouble getting it up, tonite? ;-)
>

Never. I smell an arrogant card reader, and I point him out.



--
Wound Up
ThunderSnake #65

AHPBBFM posting rules: http://tinyurl.com/ak694
AHPBBFM links page: http://tinyurl.com/a9qsx

My $0.02 is to not do anything more with the stock heads than a gasket
match. gt-40p heads flow way better stock and they can be found on ebay
easy enough. If money is no object, buy some Air Flow Research CNC's
165's. Aftermarket heads for the SBF have come a VERY long way. Ebay is
a good source of used heads; gt40x's, gt40p's, Windsor Jr's can be had
for decent prices.

Hell, if money is no object, buy a stroker kit and go 331 or 347 cubic
inches.

Bill, no need to go chevy rods anymore. Scat, Probe and others have
solved this for us.

I agree with duraspark and a msd 6a. I would again suggest not using a
junkyard duraspark. Buy a solid rebuilt.

All the above is of course 'IMO'.

Bill wrote:

> The car will run acceptably well with a standard rebuild.
> If money is no object, and you want to mess with it a bit...
> Have the cylinder heads done by someone who really knows what they are
> doing. There is a ton of power in that 1/4 inch area around the valve seats.
> The idea is to get air flowing at low valve lifts thus making the engine
> more efficient. Multi angles, making sure the contact area of the seat is on
> the top part of the valve, paying strict attention to seat width will pay
> big dividends.
> The second area that will unlock power is in the exhaust ports. That engine
> should have heads with thermactor ports in the exhaust. Have someone cut
> them out. Exhaust flow will be greatly improved. I asked a noted engine
> builder about the small block Ford heads, he told me they flow so little
> that almost anything you do is an improvement. The cost of having all of
> that done you could probably just buy a set of the new GT-40 heads.
> Does your machine shop use an automated honing machine? You want to use moly
> rings and have the cylinder walls finished using the appropriate stones.
> Using deck plates will also be beneficial.
> Have the engine dynamically balanced.
> Use a Ford duraspark distributor, have the advance re-curved for the
> camshaft you are using. Use an MSD 6A.
> You can use an aftermarket intake manifold and carb, or use one of the
> aftermarket fuel injection systems.
> If you want to see some serious RPM of the engine, you might also want to
> consider using a set of Chevrolet connecting rods. The rods in the 302 are
> the same length as the ones in the 289. With the increased stroke, the rod
> length to stroke ratio is a little off, the rods really need to be
> longer.Chevrolet rods work great after the Ford crank is turned down and
> custom pistons are purchased.
>
> OR you could just have your machine shop rebuild the engine to stock specs.
> Having it balanced is a good idea. A good current grind camshaft will add
> power without hurting fuel economy. If the shop doing the work is doing a
> good job, they will inspect everything that goes back in and advise you of
> anything that needs to be replaced.
> Drive the car and have fun.
> Good Luck
> Bill
> 1965 GT-350 Shelby
> Former NHRA Super Stock National Record Holder
>
> > wrote in message ...
>
>>(brain dump)
>>
>>I would personally go with a retro-fit hydraulic roller cam. Run a
>>reltively mild duration (~270 deg) with good lift (475-480). Buy hardened
>>pushrods. Buy valvesprings, retainers and keepers that match your cam.
>>
>>A precision balance for your crank/rods/pistons would be a good idea too.
>>
>>A good dual plane intake manifold (edelbrock still make a
>>performer/performerII?) with a 600 cfm carb (edelbrock or holley or ???).
>>
>>Distributors are always overlooked for cars of your vintage. Think before
>>you put that ~25 year old distributor in your new engine. I would look at
>>a rebuilt/recurved *electronic ignition* distributor.
>>
>>Gasket match the intake ports on your heads to your intake manifold. Do
>>the same for your exhaust ports.
>>
>>Get some 1 1/2" or 15/8 exhaust headers for your car and new dual exhaust.
>>The factory exhaust manifolds are one of the worst performance killers.
>>
>>I would stay away from a high-volume oil pump for your application. I
>>would however buy a hardened oil pump driveshaft for the build. Blueprint
>>your oil pump.
>>
>>I 100% agree with the machine shop statement. I take the stance that your
>>relationship with your machinist/builder/tuner should be closer than the
>>one you have with your wife/girlfriend (clothes on of course). Having a
>>shop who knows how to do a mild performance build is key; lots of shops
>>will just slap things together without being picky about things like
>>ring-end gaps, ring side clearances, piston-deck height, piston-to-valve
>>clearances, etc, etc, etc...
>>
>>A great book on performance engine building and blueprinting;
>>
>>http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...otive&v=glance
>>
>>My personal favorite small block ford bible;
>>
>>http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/091...lance&n=283155
>>
>>You may not need every step in the book for a mild street performance
>>build, but it will give you an idea as to what the important details are.
>>
>>Bill wrote:
>>
>>
>>>If you are just going the standard re-build route you can stay with the
>>>stock cam. One of the Hi-Energy sticks from Comp Cams will give you more
>>>power with a smooth idle. The most important thing when doing this is the
>>>quality of the work you get from the machine shop. I have lots of horror
>>>stories. Are you going to re-assemble the engine or is the shop going to
>>>do it? Ask the shop about putting hardened seats in the exhaust valves as
>>>I believe this engine was never intended to run on unleaded gas.
>>>Good Luck
>>>Bill in Yakima
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"Ron Lyons" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hi guys!
>>>>I've got a 69 mustang coupe I've had for several years now, that's a
>>>>daily driver. The engine has finally gotten to the point where I can't
>>>>bear to see my baby like that, so I pulled the engine a few days ago
>>>>with the help of my brother, a chevy guy.
>>>>
>>>>Anyways, I'm not looking for a race car, just a nice driving mustang with
>>>>a little bit of git up and go. Actually the car with the engine almost
>>>>blown still had power to spare, if you can believe it.
>>>>
>>>>I'm just looking for suggestions on minor things I should do, I know this
>>>>group has probably rebuilt thousands of 302's. I dropped the block off
>>>>at the shop today, they're boring it .030 over, and sanding and polishing
>>>>the crank, which we'll be reinstalling with 10 over bearings.
>>>>
>>>>I'm thinking stock cam. Is that rediculous or alright for what I'm
>>>>looking for? Any tips or things I need to know while I'm doing this?
>>>>
>>>>tranny is a c4 automatic, and the engine is the original 302. It appears
>>>>that it's never been rebuilt, and is actually the original engine from 69
>>>>according to the casting numbers. Heads are the stock C9OE's
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for any replies!
>>>>
>>>>Ron
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>

wrote:

>
> My $0.02 is to not do anything more with the stock heads than a
> gasket match. gt-40p heads flow way better stock and they can be found
> on ebay easy enough. If money is no object, buy some Air Flow Research
> CNC's 165's. Aftermarket heads for the SBF have come a VERY long way.
> Ebay is a good source of used heads; gt40x's, gt40p's, Windsor Jr's can
> be had for decent prices.
>
> Hell, if money is no object, buy a stroker kit and go 331 or 347
> cubic inches.
>
> Bill, no need to go chevy rods anymore. Scat, Probe and others have
> solved this for us.
>
> I agree with duraspark and a msd 6a. I would again suggest not using
> a junkyard duraspark. Buy a solid rebuilt.
>
> All the above is of course 'IMO'.
>

Dunno why this ended up as a reply to 66 HCS's post. Meant to reply
further up the thread to Bill.