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  #11  
Old April 19th 09, 02:41 AM posted to rec.autos.driving,alt.autos.corvette,alt.autos.gm
Canuck57[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 43
Default Good GM/Bad GM


"Dad" > wrote in message
.. .
>> "Comments4u" > wrote in message
>> ...

>
> The only thing GM did wrong is that they didn't come to the internet
> sooner and ask all the arm chair managers to put down their beer and
> expound their brilliance as it has been shown here.
>
> Best laugh I've had since I drove a Honda back in the early seventies.....


It really isn't a laughing mater, GM is costing you and I money... every day
they remain in business they suck from the taxpayers wallet.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/1315...m?source=yahoo

But GM's days as the old money loosing GM are coming to an end. A new GM
will arrise from the ashes, minus the a$$h0les that drove it there I hope.


Ads
  #12  
Old April 19th 09, 03:37 AM posted to rec.autos.driving,alt.autos.corvette,alt.autos.gm
Dad[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,100
Default Good GM/Bad GM


"Canuck57" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dad" > wrote in message
> .. .
>>> "Comments4u" > wrote in
>>> message
>>> ...

>>
>> The only thing GM did wrong is that they didn't come to the
>> internet sooner and ask all the arm chair managers to put down
>> their beer and expound their brilliance as it has been shown here.
>>
>> Best laugh I've had since I drove a Honda back in the early
>> seventies.....

>
> It really isn't a laughing mater, GM is costing you and I money...
> every day they remain in business they suck from the taxpayers
> wallet.
>
> http://seekingalpha.com/article/1315...m?source=yahoo
>
> But GM's days as the old money loosing GM are coming to an end. A
> new GM will arrise from the ashes, minus the a$$h0les that drove it
> there I hope.


Actually it is laughable, GM is not costing you and me anything other
than what you pay for their cars. It's a loan, not a gift like they
gave the banks. Bail out the people that produce nothing and gut those
that do? Now I can at least see why you still have your beer in your
hand.



If you think GM is costing us money tell me why the unsecured home
loans by the banks and financial community that failed, that are now
getting financial assistance, are not a problem that got GM, and many
other companies, in hot water. That all goes back to the do gooders
that made it possible for everyone to own a home, a big home at that.
We are getting what we deserve for allowing our government to become
the hand that feeds us all instead of our having to work for a living.
Soon we will all have health care whether we work or not, who pays for
that, the banks? Now I have to quit, I'm laughing to hard to
type.........

  #13  
Old April 19th 09, 06:55 AM posted to alt.autos.corvette
Speaker of the Truth[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 36
Default Good GM/Bad GM

Pontiac and Chevrolet are the only two who can sell cars.

Who under 60 wants a Buick? Olds still had potential but they kept Buick .

Historical Cadillac customers don't drive trucks.

Why have GMC and Chevy Trucks? Why have Ford and Mercury?

All questions we've been asking for the last 20 years and nothing changes.

What should go on their graves stones is that they were taken over by staff
people when line people should have been making the decisions. Bean
counters! Give the people what you think they need rather than give America
what they want. The Lee Iacoccas, the Harley Earls, the John Deloreans and
Zora Duntovs all sit in the back seat now.

What people dont understand is that it's over it just a matter of time.




  #14  
Old April 19th 09, 07:00 AM posted to alt.autos.corvette
Clams Canino
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 168
Default Good GM/Bad GM


"Speaker of the Truth" > wrote in message
...
> Pontiac and Chevrolet are the only two who can sell cars.
>
> Who under 60 wants a Buick? Olds still had potential but they kept Buick .
>
> Historical Cadillac customers don't drive trucks.
>
> Why have GMC and Chevy Trucks? Why have Ford and Mercury?
>
> All questions we've been asking for the last 20 years and nothing changes.
>
> What should go on their graves stones is that they were taken over by

staff
> people when line people should have been making the decisions. Bean
> counters! Give the people what you think they need rather than give

America
> what they want. The Lee Iacoccas, the Harley Earls, the John Deloreans

and
> Zora Duntovs all sit in the back seat now.
>
> What people dont understand is that it's over it just a matter of time.


I must agree. Ditto for Blockbuster, Sears/Kmart, and a few others -
evolve or die.
That said, I'd make Corvette a separate division. They rarely said Chevrolet
on them anyway.... who'd really care?

-W


  #15  
Old April 19th 09, 08:23 AM posted to rec.autos.driving,alt.autos.corvette,alt.autos.gm,alt.autos.toyota,alt.autos.nissan
R Mach
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 57
Default Good GM/Bad GM

>> >
>> Saturn is an obvious liquidation target. The brand has lost money every
>> year it has existed. Its original business model - creating a car unique
>> in content - was doomed from the beginning, as the importance of parts
>> commonality was recognized by American manufacturers in the 20s and by
>> Asian manufacturers in the 70s. It could be speculated that Saturn was,
>> philosophically, a British project as they never learned this lesson,
>> even
>> to the point that during British Leyland's last gasp in the 80s, Jaguars,
>> Rovers, Triumphs, and MGs used different shades of white paint.
>>

>
> Well...Saturn had four-valve heads and overhead cams before it was common
> on other GM cars. But Saturn just did not have the style or prestige of
> something like the current Infiniti G35 sedan. And the current Saturn is
> the same car as a Ponitac G6 or the same as a Chevrolet Malibu. (Now the
> Saturn Aura and the Pontiac G6 can have the same port-fuel-injection
> engine as the Cadillac CTS.)
>
> But the death of the British sports cars in the 1970's ?
> The British cars did not go to electronic fuel injection like the German
> cars did. So with new pollution control requirements the British cars got
> poor fuel mileage and poor performance.
>
> And the American car makers did not even notice the problem of lacking
> electronic fuel injection and they continued on without it...
>
> And currently the German car makers have turbo-diesels while GM has
> literally scoffed...
>
>> Clearly Hummer has most of the same problems as Saturn. While some may
>> want to retain Hummer due to its military applications, high volume sales
>> to the military would require a need to replace current equipment. And
>> that would occur only if existing equipment were destroyed in constant,
>> long term, no victory in sight wars, something President Obama, unlike
>> his
>> predecessor, seems interested in avoiding.
>>

>
> If a military Hummer will not stand up to road-side bombs then the
> military might as well use crew-cab pickup trucks and save money...
>
>> Pontiac and Buick are obviously finished. Once having sufficient volume
>> to
>> support single marque dealerships, GM forced its Buick and Pontiac
>> dealers
>> to consolidate and, even then, volume was so insufficient it threw GMC
>> into
>> the mix.
>>

>
> Without Pontiac GM becomes a Rambler dealer. Pontiac has the G8 which is
> the same as the Cadillac CTS, Pontiac has the Solstice which is a heavier
> car than the Mazda MX-5, Pontiac has the obsolete Grand Prix but which is
> more appealing than the Chevrolet Impala, and Pontiac has the G6 GXP with
> the same port-injection engine as the Cadillac CTS.
>


Oh...the Pontiac G8 is not the same as the Cadillac CTS. The 2010 Chevrolet
Camaro and the Pontiac G8 are the same platform car. But all three cars are
rear-wheel-drive and all weight about 3800 pounds and all can have the same
V-6 engine.


  #16  
Old April 19th 09, 09:43 AM posted to rec.autos.driving,alt.autos.corvette,alt.autos.gm,alt.autos.nissan
Peter Hill
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18
Default Good GM/Bad GM

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 18:58:48 -0400, "R Mach" >
wrote:

>>>>And currently the German car makers have turbo-diesels while GM has
>>>>literally scoffed...
>>>
>>> GM USA?
>>>
>>> GM Europe
>>> http://www.worldcarfans.com/2040414....ine-technology
>>>
>>> What's being delivered.
>>> http://www.saab.co.uk/gb/en/start#/w...carrousel:all/
>>>
>>> Sorry if 180bhp from a 1.9L 4 pot just isn't enough to meet your
>>> requirements.

>>
>> The CEO of GM scoffed at turbo-diesels for the American market...

>
>And the GM 2.0 gasoline turbocharged engine is a little goofy in that it has
>up to 20 psi of boost for 260 horsepower. Meanwhile VW holds the line for
>the 2.0 gasoline turbocharged engine at a more trustworthy 200 horsepower...


but when that engine has Audi on it's lid it makes 225bhp.

>But to continue on this branch subject...Ford has a twin-turbo gasoline V-6
>on the way. And that's not sequential turbos but a turbo for each bank of
>cyliners...


Which is how BMW 335i works, one little turbo for front 3, 2nd little
turbo for back 3. They didn't go the whole hog as it would have trod
on the M3 toes. Small turbo's that spool at reasonably low rpm have
been in use for years. Gives near instant response and top gear
acceleration at 60-70mph that matches 4th gear response of engines 2x
the size. BMW and Ford experience of turbo's is coloured by them
making turbo petrol engines back when turbo's were big, giving top end
power with lots of lag and nothing in the mid range. It's taken them
20 years to wise up.

Nissan had 280bhp from the 2L SR20VET back in 2001. It used Honda
V-tec (hence the "V") + ball bearing turbo running around 1 bar. It
was fitted to the JDM only X-Trail GT. It should have gone in the S15
JDM Silvia / Aus/NZ 200SX. But that was killed off because with just
250bhp SR20DET it was on par with the 350Z.
--
Peter Hill
Spamtrap reply domain as per NNTP-Posting-Host in header
Can of worms - what every fisherman wants.
Can of worms - what every PC owner gets!
  #17  
Old April 19th 09, 12:47 PM posted to rec.autos.driving,alt.autos.corvette,alt.autos.gm
Canuck57[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 43
Default Good GM/Bad GM


"Dad" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Canuck57" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Dad" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>>> "Comments4u" > wrote in
>>>> message
>>>> ...
>>>
>>> The only thing GM did wrong is that they didn't come to the internet
>>> sooner and ask all the arm chair managers to put down their beer and
>>> expound their brilliance as it has been shown here.
>>>
>>> Best laugh I've had since I drove a Honda back in the early
>>> seventies.....

>>
>> It really isn't a laughing mater, GM is costing you and I money... every
>> day they remain in business they suck from the taxpayers wallet.
>>
>> http://seekingalpha.com/article/1315...m?source=yahoo
>>
>> But GM's days as the old money loosing GM are coming to an end. A new GM
>> will arrise from the ashes, minus the a$$h0les that drove it there I
>> hope.

>
> Actually it is laughable, GM is not costing you and me anything other than
> what you pay for their cars. It's a loan, not a gift like they gave the
> banks. Bail out the people that produce nothing and gut those that do? Now
> I can at least see why you still have your beer in your hand.


Who do you think is going to pay for the $25B or so that GM, GMAC and
Chrysler have hooked out of the taxpayer? God?

> If you think GM is costing us money tell me why the unsecured home loans
> by the banks and financial community that failed, that are now getting
> financial assistance, are not a problem that got GM, and many other
> companies, in hot water. That all goes back to the do gooders that made it
> possible for everyone to own a home, a big home at that. We are getting
> what we deserve for allowing our government to become the hand that feeds
> us all instead of our having to work for a living. Soon we will all have
> health care whether we work or not, who pays for that, the banks? Now I
> have to quit, I'm laughing to hard to type.........


Individuals would find it hard to get unsecured home loans, especially if
the value of their home was 100% mortgaged. It is only a loan if there is a
reasonalbe expectation of payback, but no rational person can see how GM
will pay back.

GM's problem had nothing to do with homes, it had to do with GREED. During
every downturn GM was sucked dry by incompetant management and union greed
soaking the profits. During every uptick the management and union feasted
on the good times returning nothing to shareholders and to reduce debt.
They in fact created a GM Ponzi House of Debt thinking it was too bog to
fail. A misjudgement.

The "do gooders" are the voters who voted for Congress who gave us
artificially low interest rates encouraging debt. No one put a gun to
anyones head to get sucked into the debt-slavery play. Don't want to be a
debt-slave, don't go into debt.

Health care? Pay for it with what? Lower standard of living for sure. In
Canada our taxes are super high compared to the USA. Now that government is
overspending on bailouts and corruption they are cutting health care but not
taxes... Government funded health care is about statism and the loss of
your economic freedoms.

Sad to say, most Americans have lost the spirit that made the USA so great,
the right to individual liberty and freedom is under attack. When it is
over, Americans will not be so happy for those knowing what they are giving
up.


  #18  
Old April 19th 09, 01:39 PM posted to rec.autos.driving,alt.autos.corvette,alt.autos.gm
Dad[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,100
Default Good GM/Bad GM


"Canuck57" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dad" > wrote in message
> .. .
>>
>> "Canuck57" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Dad" > wrote in message
>>> .. .
>>>>> "Comments4u" > wrote in
>>>>> message
>>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> The only thing GM did wrong is that they didn't come to the
>>>> internet sooner and ask all the arm chair managers to put down
>>>> their beer and expound their brilliance as it has been shown
>>>> here.
>>>>
>>>> Best laugh I've had since I drove a Honda back in the early
>>>> seventies.....
>>>
>>> It really isn't a laughing mater, GM is costing you and I money...
>>> every day they remain in business they suck from the taxpayers
>>> wallet.
>>>
>>> http://seekingalpha.com/article/1315...m?source=yahoo
>>>
>>> But GM's days as the old money loosing GM are coming to an end. A
>>> new GM will arrise from the ashes, minus the a$$h0les that drove
>>> it there I hope.

>>
>> Actually it is laughable, GM is not costing you and me anything
>> other than what you pay for their cars. It's a loan, not a gift
>> like they gave the banks. Bail out the people that produce nothing
>> and gut those that do? Now I can at least see why you still have
>> your beer in your hand.

>
> Who do you think is going to pay for the $25B or so that GM, GMAC
> and Chrysler have hooked out of the taxpayer? God?


Yep, the Gods you elected and it is still a "loan". Yes, I expected
them to pay it back until the government decided they should run it,
can you say POSTOFFICE, they do well running that, don't they.

>> If you think GM is costing us money tell me why the unsecured home
>> loans by the banks and financial community that failed, that are
>> now getting financial assistance, are not a problem that got GM,
>> and many other companies, in hot water. That all goes back to the
>> do gooders that made it possible for everyone to own a home, a big
>> home at that. We are getting what we deserve for allowing our
>> government to become the hand that feeds us all instead of our
>> having to work for a living. Soon we will all have health care
>> whether we work or not, who pays for that, the banks? Now I have to
>> quit, I'm laughing to hard to type.........

>
> Individuals would find it hard to get unsecured home loans,
> especially if the value of their home was 100% mortgaged. It is
> only a loan if there is a reasonalbe expectation of payback, but no
> rational person can see how GM will pay back.


So somehow GM is different than all the numb nuts that borrowed and
loaned out BILLIONS for housing they couldn't afford? That plus all of
the worthless paper they generated selling those to each other for
profit somehow is OK? They didn't draw multi million dollar bonuses
for no productivity? GM is not Lilly white but they were in a position
to do the right thing and our government took it away from then by
holding them as a financial hostage, while dumping money on the money
changers that are even less deserving.

> GM's problem had nothing to do with homes, it had to do with GREED.
> During every downturn GM was sucked dry by incompetant management
> and union greed


I think you forgot taxes. You also seem to forget that the money would
have been there for GM to get their loan and carry on doing their
business if the financial house of cards had not collapsed. Further
more GM was building what the public was buying. One of the biggest
surprises I've had in a long time was the number of dually USA pickups
that were in England the last time I was over there. Somehow you and
everyone else needs to take ownership of their buying habits.

> soaking the profits. During every uptick the management and union
> feasted on the good times returning nothing to shareholders and to
> reduce debt. They in fact created a GM Ponzi House of Debt thinking
> it was too bog to fail. A misjudgement.
>
> The "do gooders" are the voters who voted for Congress who gave us
> artificially low interest rates encouraging debt. No one put a gun
> to anyones head to get sucked into the debt-slavery play. Don't
> want to be a debt-slave, don't go into debt.
>
> Health care? Pay for it with what? Lower standard of living for
> sure. In Canada our taxes are super high compared to the USA. Now
> that government is overspending on bailouts and corruption they are
> cutting health care but not taxes... Government funded health care
> is about statism and the loss of your economic freedoms.


Only took you 50/80 years to catch onto that?

> Sad to say, most Americans have lost the spirit that made the USA so
> great, the right to individual liberty and freedom is under attack.
> When it is over, Americans will not be so happy for those knowing
> what they are giving up.


Agreed, but the thirties taught me to not be in debt, which I'm not. I
have seldom voted for the people that are now in office, I lose allot
to the densely populated government tenant dwellers that need more of
my money. My neighboring state Michigan is doing well with the
governor from Canada, want her back?

  #19  
Old April 19th 09, 04:44 PM posted to rec.autos.driving,alt.autos.corvette,alt.autos.gm
Clams Canino
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 168
Default Good GM/Bad GM


"Dad" > wrote in message news-

> Yep, the Gods you elected and it is still a "loan". Yes, I expected
> them to pay it back until the government decided they should run it,
> can you say POSTOFFICE, they do well running that, don't they.


Only if you consider that it's operated at a loos more years than at a
profit. If you define that as doing well -- you outta run GM.

-W


  #20  
Old April 19th 09, 04:48 PM posted to rec.autos.driving,alt.autos.corvette,alt.autos.gm
Canuck57[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 43
Default Good GM/Bad GM


"Dad" > wrote in message
news
>
> "Canuck57" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Dad" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>>
>>> "Canuck57" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> "Dad" > wrote in message
>>>> .. .
>>>>>> "Comments4u" > wrote in
>>>>>> message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> The only thing GM did wrong is that they didn't come to the internet
>>>>> sooner and ask all the arm chair managers to put down their beer and
>>>>> expound their brilliance as it has been shown here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best laugh I've had since I drove a Honda back in the early
>>>>> seventies.....
>>>>
>>>> It really isn't a laughing mater, GM is costing you and I money...
>>>> every day they remain in business they suck from the taxpayers wallet.
>>>>
>>>> http://seekingalpha.com/article/1315...m?source=yahoo
>>>>
>>>> But GM's days as the old money loosing GM are coming to an end. A new
>>>> GM will arrise from the ashes, minus the a$$h0les that drove it there I
>>>> hope.
>>>
>>> Actually it is laughable, GM is not costing you and me anything other
>>> than what you pay for their cars. It's a loan, not a gift like they gave
>>> the banks. Bail out the people that produce nothing and gut those that
>>> do? Now I can at least see why you still have your beer in your hand.

>>
>> Who do you think is going to pay for the $25B or so that GM, GMAC and
>> Chrysler have hooked out of the taxpayer? God?

>
> Yep, the Gods you elected and it is still a "loan". Yes, I expected them
> to pay it back until the government decided they should run it, can you
> say POSTOFFICE, they do well running that, don't they.


And the post office is still government owned and operated monopoly...LOL.

>>> If you think GM is costing us money tell me why the unsecured home loans
>>> by the banks and financial community that failed, that are now getting
>>> financial assistance, are not a problem that got GM, and many other
>>> companies, in hot water. That all goes back to the do gooders that made
>>> it possible for everyone to own a home, a big home at that. We are
>>> getting what we deserve for allowing our government to become the hand
>>> that feeds us all instead of our having to work for a living. Soon we
>>> will all have health care whether we work or not, who pays for that, the
>>> banks? Now I have to quit, I'm laughing to hard to type.........

>>
>> Individuals would find it hard to get unsecured home loans, especially if
>> the value of their home was 100% mortgaged. It is only a loan if there
>> is a reasonalbe expectation of payback, but no rational person can see
>> how GM will pay back.

>
> So somehow GM is different than all the numb nuts that borrowed and loaned
> out BILLIONS for housing they couldn't afford? That plus all of the
> worthless paper they generated selling those to each other for profit
> somehow is OK? They didn't draw multi million dollar bonuses for no
> productivity? GM is not Lilly white but they were in a position to do the
> right thing and our government took it away from then by holding them as a
> financial hostage, while dumping money on the money changers that are even
> less deserving.


GM is worse, it is supposed to have the controls in place. BTW, when the
dust settles the auditors will be be next for not delaring them bankrupt.
In fact a few have already had to cough up millions... FRAUD.

>> GM's problem had nothing to do with homes, it had to do with GREED.
>> During every downturn GM was sucked dry by incompetant management and
>> union greed

>
> I think you forgot taxes. You also seem to forget that the money would
> have been there for GM to get their loan and carry on doing their business
> if the financial house of cards had not collapsed. Further more GM was
> building what the public was buying. One of the biggest surprises I've had
> in a long time was the number of dually USA pickups that were in England
> the last time I was over there. Somehow you and everyone else needs to
> take ownership of their buying habits.


Hey, I could sell any car subsidised by the US taxpayer!!!

Get a grip. Every one made is produced and sold at a loss with the taxpayer
subsidising costs. GM hasn't paid for parts, nor warranties, nothing for
months now. Even Wagoners $20M go away present, US taxpayer funded.

>> soaking the profits. During every uptick the management and union
>> feasted on the good times returning nothing to shareholders and to reduce
>> debt. They in fact created a GM Ponzi House of Debt thinking it was too
>> bog to fail. A misjudgement.
>>
>> The "do gooders" are the voters who voted for Congress who gave us
>> artificially low interest rates encouraging debt. No one put a gun to
>> anyones head to get sucked into the debt-slavery play. Don't want to be
>> a debt-slave, don't go into debt.
>>
>> Health care? Pay for it with what? Lower standard of living for sure.
>> In Canada our taxes are super high compared to the USA. Now that
>> government is overspending on bailouts and corruption they are cutting
>> health care but not taxes... Government funded health care is about
>> statism and the loss of your economic freedoms.

>
> Only took you 50/80 years to catch onto that?


You were saying how wonderful government health care was going to be,
perhaps I misread. Maybe you were being sarcastic?

>> Sad to say, most Americans have lost the spirit that made the USA so
>> great, the right to individual liberty and freedom is under attack. When
>> it is over, Americans will not be so happy for those knowing what they
>> are giving up.

>
> Agreed, but the thirties taught me to not be in debt, which I'm not. I
> have seldom voted for the people that are now in office, I lose allot to
> the densely populated government tenant dwellers that need more of my
> money. My neighboring state Michigan is doing well with the governor from
> Canada, want her back?


Send her back or keep her, don't care either way. INS lets in the bad once
and keeps out the good ones. I lived in the USA for almost 10 years. Great
country BTW, just sad to see the general population so enamored with
statism. It is a dead end to financial liberty.


 




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