2008 J.D. Power Initial Quality Study: Porsche, Honda, Chevroletamong big winners

"Nate Nagel" > wrote in message
>
> This is why I can't possibly see how J.D. Power surveys are useful in
> determining anything other than initial quality which is what they are
> designed to measure. And I actually am a big believer in Porsches, I just
> don't think that J.D. Power results mean squat to anyone who's going to
> keep their car after the warranty runs out.
>
> nate

Powers has a lot of importance. Look at all the advertising revenue it
generates. It is also very important to know what the best car is for those
that keep them for 3 to 6 months. If, OTOH, you intend to keep your car for
5 or 15 years, it has no meaning at all.

"Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Nate Nagel" > wrote in message
>>
>> This is why I can't possibly see how J.D. Power surveys are useful in
>> determining anything other than initial quality which is what they are
>> designed to measure. And I actually am a big believer in Porsches, I
>> just don't think that J.D. Power results mean squat to anyone who's going
>> to keep their car after the warranty runs out.
>>
>> nate
>
> Powers has a lot of importance. Look at all the advertising revenue it
> generates. It is also very important to know what the best car is for
> those that keep them for 3 to 6 months. If, OTOH, you intend to keep your
> car for 5 or 15 years, it has no meaning at all.
>

Consumer Reports has more meaning to the long term owner.

If the question is, how much service did you need in the first year of
ownership, then JD Powers is the place to look. but when the question
becomes, how much service did you need after 5 years, then Consumer Reports
has the better answer.

"Roadrunner NG" > wrote in message
...
> Don't most people like the car they just bought within 90 days? Weak
> Statistic. Otherwise, it's kinda like admitting you're stupid.

Good point! When one asks someone how they like their new vehicle, the
response is usually not "I hate it!"

Kind of like asking that person what kind of a deal they negotiated on the
car, people rarely say "I paid too much."

Also kind of like asking that person about their driving skills...
regardless of their age, experience, gender, race, religion, ethnic
background, level of education, financial status, or knowledge about the
workings of an automobile, they all consider themselves above average
drivers!
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
> Good point! When one asks someone how they like their new vehicle, the
> response is usually not "I hate it!"
>

I only know of one person that actually said that. Cadillac Catera and
after a week he knew it was not the car for him. Kept it about two years
though.



> Also kind of like asking that person about their driving skills...
> regardless of their age, experience, gender, race, religion, ethnic
> background, level of education, financial status, or knowledge about the
> workings of an automobile, they all consider themselves above average
> drivers!

I'm not just above average, I'm way above average.

"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Roadrunner NG" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Don't most people like the car they just bought within 90 days? Weak
>> Statistic. Otherwise, it's kinda like admitting you're stupid.
>
> Good point! When one asks someone how they like their new vehicle, the
> response is usually not "I hate it!"


Actually I can think of four vehicles I wish I had not purchased within 90
days - '78 Ford Fairmont, '81 Plymouth Reliant, '82 Toyota Cressida, '83
Mazda 626. The Reliant and Cressida were just giant POS's . They were by far
the two worst cars I ever owned - but for different reasons, the Reliant was
totally unreliable but performed well when it ran, the Cressida was both
unreliable and drove like a POS. The Fairmont was reliable but I just didn't
like it (too generic?). After driving the Mazda for 2 weeks I could never
get comfortable in it and hated driving it on trips. I sold it to my Sister
and she really liked it, so I guess it was just personal taste.

I don't think you guys are interpreting the survey correctly. They don't ask
if you like the car, they you how many problems you have had. Unless you
think Toyota owners are bigger liars than Chrysler owners, the results
should be comparable.

Ed

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Strickland" >
Newsgroups:
alt.autos.toyota,alt.autos.toyota.camry,rec.autos. makers.honda,alt.autos.gm
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 6:43 PM
Subject: 2008 J.D. Power Initial Quality Study: Porsche, Honda,
Chevrolet among big winners


>
> "Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Nate Nagel" > wrote in message
>>>
>>> This is why I can't possibly see how J.D. Power surveys are useful in
>>> determining anything other than initial quality which is what they are
>>> designed to measure. And I actually am a big believer in Porsches, I
>>> just don't think that J.D. Power results mean squat to anyone who's
>>> going to keep their car after the warranty runs out.
>>>
>>> nate
>>
>> Powers has a lot of importance. Look at all the advertising revenue it
>> generates. It is also very important to know what the best car is for
>> those that keep them for 3 to 6 months. If, OTOH, you intend to keep
>> your car for 5 or 15 years, it has no meaning at all.
>>
>
> Consumer Reports has more meaning to the long term owner.
>
> If the question is, how much service did you need in the first year of
> ownership, then JD Powers is the place to look. but when the question
> becomes, how much service did you need after 5 years, then Consumer
> Reports has the better answer.

JD Powers also has a survey that address longer term reliability (3 years).
I suspect this is about as long as is meaningful. After three years I
suspect owner treatment of the vehicles becomes a significant factor in
reliability.

I've never had much respect for the CR survey results. I've answered them
for years, but think doing so is largely a waste of times. The survey is far
from random and they collect too little information to make the broad
pronouncements given in the magazines. The little circles they display in
the magazine are also misleading. They over emphasize the difference between
vehicles.

Ed

"C. E. White" > wrote
> JD Powers also has a survey that address longer term
> reliability (3 years). I suspect this is about as long as
> is meaningful. After three years I suspect owner treatment
> of the vehicles becomes a significant factor in
> reliability.

All sort of holes may be poked into conclusions drawn from
any survey.

> I've never had much respect for the CR survey results.
> I've answered them for years, but think doing so is
> largely a waste of times. The survey is far from random

The CR survey is as random as Power's ridiculously useless
survey.

> and they collect too little information to make the broad
> pronouncements given in the magazines.

Based on the numbers surveyed, combined with the number of
years covered, the results are most likely statistically
significant.



> The little circles they display in the magazine are also
> misleading. They over emphasize the difference between
> vehicles.

CR explains precisely what the difference between circle
coloring means.

"Elle" > wrote in message
...
> "C. E. White" > wrote
>> JD Powers also has a survey that address longer term reliability (3
>> years). I suspect this is about as long as is meaningful. After three
>> years I suspect owner treatment of the vehicles becomes a significant
>> factor in reliability.
>
> All sort of holes may be poked into conclusions drawn from any survey.
>
>> I've never had much respect for the CR survey results. I've answered them
>> for years, but think doing so is largely a waste of times. The survey is
>> far from random
>
> The CR survey is as random as Power's ridiculously useless survey.
>
>> and they collect too little information to make the broad pronouncements
>> given in the magazines.
>
> Based on the numbers surveyed, combined with the number of years covered,
> the results are most likely statistically significant.
>
>
>
>> The little circles they display in the magazine are also misleading. They
>> over emphasize the difference between vehicles.
>
> CR explains precisely what the difference between circle coloring means.
>


I agree, mostly. Any survey is dependent upon the sheer number of
participants/respondants, and the more there are the greater the accuracy of
the data. With any survey, if one throws out the top and bottom extremes of
the response curve, the result should be relatively level and a reasonably
accurate indicator of the overall feeling of the sample group.

I don't think that JD Powers and Consumer Reports will attract significantly
different samples. They might ask different questions, and that might garner
different responses, and this can result in differing views on the overall
feeling of the groups, I don't see that either survey is better or worse
than the other.

I would not follow the advise of the editorial staff too closely, except
that they would have a good feel for the ergonomics, fit & finish, and
comments about "feel good" stuff. They can not address the long term
servicability issues, but they can accurately report on stuff such as noise
in the cabin, relative power and performance, location of cup holders, etc.

But, when actual owners are asked about what they like and dislike about
their cars, I have to give them far more weight for accurate responses.

"Jeff Strickland" > wrote
> Any survey is dependent upon the sheer number of
> participants/respondants, and the more there are the
> greater the accuracy of the data. With any survey, if one
> throws out the top and bottom extremes of the response
> curve, the result should be relatively level and a
> reasonably accurate indicator of the overall feeling of
> the sample group.

? The extremes cancel each other out and should not affect
the average in any significant way, assuming the sample size
is large enough.

> I don't think that JD Powers and Consumer Reports will
> attract significantly different samples.

Sample size per year-model seems about the same for the IQS
and CR surveys. Power is not as forthcoming, IMO, about
sample size per vehicle.
Links at http://www.jdpower.com/autos/car-ratings/ ,
says Power used input from 97,000 car owners for the IQS.
The input covers I guess over 100 different models. (I am
too lazy to count them all up.) So there's input of maybe
around 1000 owners for each model.

J.D. Power's 2007 dependability ratings (for three year old
cars, asking about problems in the last 12 months) use input
from a paltry 53,000 car owners.

CR uses input from 1 million owners, covering 1100
model-years for the past decade. So CR is using the input of
about 1000 owners per model-year. So I'd guesstimate that
CR's input is of higher statistical significance for any
given model-year. Take a few years running where the model
design is known not to have changed a lot, and CR is of much
higher statistical significance.

> They might ask different questions, and that might garner
> different responses, and this can result in differing
> views on the overall feeling of the groups, I don't see
> that either survey is better or worse than the other.
>
> I would not follow the advise of the editorial staff too
> closely, except that they would have a good feel for the
> ergonomics, fit & finish, and comments about "feel good"
> stuff. They can not address the long term servicability
> issues, but they can accurately report on stuff such as
> noise in the cabin, relative power and performance,
> location of cup holders, etc.

Sure, the editorial comments are a start and at least as
good as anecdotal reports here.

> But, when actual owners are asked about what they like and
> dislike about their cars, I have to give them far more
> weight for accurate responses.

I suppose the prudent course is to form a "meta-study" of
both the J.D. Power survey and CR's survey.

Actually the answer to the Survey is not simply yens or no. It is more
akan to:

Complete satisfîmes ___

Somewhat satisfied ___

Satisfied ___

Dissatisfied ___

Somewhat dissatisfied ___

Completely dissatisfied ___



"C. E. White" > wrote in message
news
>
> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "Roadrunner NG" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Don't most people like the car they just bought within 90 days? Weak
>>> Statistic. Otherwise, it's kinda like admitting you're stupid.
>>
>> Good point! When one asks someone how they like their new vehicle, the
>> response is usually not "I hate it!"
>
>
> Actually I can think of four vehicles I wish I had not purchased within 90
> days - '78 Ford Fairmont, '81 Plymouth Reliant, '82 Toyota Cressida, '83
> Mazda 626. The Reliant and Cressida were just giant POS's . They were by
> far the two worst cars I ever owned - but for different reasons, the
> Reliant was totally unreliable but performed well when it ran, the
> Cressida was both unreliable and drove like a POS. The Fairmont was
> reliable but I just didn't like it (too generic?). After driving the Mazda
> for 2 weeks I could never get comfortable in it and hated driving it on
> trips. I sold it to my Sister and she really liked it, so I guess it was
> just personal taste.
>
> I don't think you guys are interpreting the survey correctly. They don't
> ask if you like the car, they you how many problems you have had. Unless
> you think Toyota owners are bigger liars than Chrysler owners, the results
> should be comparable.
>
> Ed
>