Ride an SUB not an SUV

"Bill" > wrote in message
.. .
> drydem wrote:
> > On Apr 26, 6:32 am, Bill > wrote:
> >> drydem wrote:
> >>> I've seen hydrogen gas created by electrolysis at the last solar
> >>> decathlon. A large solar array was used to create hydrogen
> >>> from water via electrolysis and it was store in a hydrogen
> >>> fuel cell storage facility (which acted like a battery for the
> >>> hydrogen
> >>> powered electric generators) .
> >> On a more massive scale, one study showed that if 100 square miles of
> >> Arizona desert could be covered in present day solar cells it could
> >> easily power the entire country. I wonder if the $400 billion or so
> >> spent in Iraq would have paid for the mass production of that many
solar
> >> cells???
> >
> >
> > Solar cells can't store power and don't provide power at night.
> > So they are not by themselves an alternate power
> > solution since they can't provide power on demand.
>
> Please don't give me ammo to give you the "Duh" award.
> That is why there are battery banks and Ultra-caps.
> >
> > Unfortunately, electric battery technology is not at a
> > point where they provide an adequate storage capacity
> > for our on demand electric utility power

If batteries were as good as the above poster thinks, we would all have
electric cars.

George Conklin wrote:
> "Bill" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> drydem wrote:
>>> On Apr 26, 6:32 am, Bill > wrote:
>>>> drydem wrote:
>>>>> I've seen hydrogen gas created by electrolysis at the last solar
>>>>> decathlon. A large solar array was used to create hydrogen
>>>>> from water via electrolysis and it was store in a hydrogen
>>>>> fuel cell storage facility (which acted like a battery for the
>>>>> hydrogen
>>>>> powered electric generators) .
>>>> On a more massive scale, one study showed that if 100 square miles of
>>>> Arizona desert could be covered in present day solar cells it could
>>>> easily power the entire country. I wonder if the $400 billion or so
>>>> spent in Iraq would have paid for the mass production of that many
> solar
>>>> cells???
>>>
>>> Solar cells can't store power and don't provide power at night.
>>> So they are not by themselves an alternate power
>>> solution since they can't provide power on demand.
>> Please don't give me ammo to give you the "Duh" award.
>> That is why there are battery banks and Ultra-caps.
>>> Unfortunately, electric battery technology is not at a
>>> point where they provide an adequate storage capacity
>>> for our on demand electric utility power
>
> If batteries were as good as the above poster thinks, we would all have
> electric cars.
>
>
Read up on "Ultra caps". They have virtually no degradation with
charge/discharge cycles and rival the best batteries in energy storage.
We don't all have electric cars because everyone seems to want a few
hundred horsepower under their right foot. As for power grid use this
type of cap will stay charged for months due to it's new technology.
Bill (no BS this time) Baka

On Apr 29, 6:22 pm, Bill > wrote:
> drydem wrote:
> > On Apr 26, 6:32 am, Bill > wrote:
> >> drydem wrote:
> >>> I've seen hydrogen gas created by electrolysis at the last solar
> >>> decathlon. A large solar array was used to create hydrogen
> >>> from water via electrolysis and it was store in a hydrogen
> >>> fuel cell storage facility (which acted like a battery for the
> >>> hydrogen
> >>> powered electric generators) .
> >> On a more massive scale, one study showed that if 100 square miles of
> >> Arizona desert could be covered in present day solar cells it could
> >> easily power the entire country. I wonder if the $400 billion or so
> >> spent in Iraq would have paid for the mass production of that many solar
> >> cells???
>
> > Solar cells can't store power and don't provide power at night.
> > So they are not by themselves an alternate power
> > solution since they can't provide power on demand.
>
> Please don't give me ammo to give you the "Duh" award.
> That is why there are battery banks and Ultra-caps.

Duh. I don't think even Lithion-ion batteries would be a
viable solution for a public utility power grid unless it
was limited to powering something with a low power
drain - e.g. land line telephone circuitry.

Ultra-capacitors[1] - from the little that I heard they sounded
like high voltage/hi power/low leakage capacitors.
I was never able to figure out how much power those
things could handle or how they would be configured
to scaled up power wise. Do you know? What I'd like
to know is their lifespan vs Lithion Ions, e.g. MTBF.
When I first heard of them I just thought they were a
fancy hi quality electrolyic capacitor - being very old
school - the first thing I thought about was cap
leakage ( caps unlike batteries can't hold a charge
for too due to leakage ) I suppose they company
is using some sort of power transistor shunting
device to limit cap leakage - how long it would work
I'm not sure. Controlling the current and voltage levels
is one of the engineering challenges in making a
Hi voltage Hi current Ultra cap.


[1] Ultracapicator are a electrical storage device by EEStor (Texas)
ultracapacitors store energy in an electrical field between two
closely spaced conductors, or plates. When voltage is applied, an
electric charge builds up on each plate. A composition of the barium-
titanate powders is used to store voltage--in the range of 1,200 to
3,500 volts. EEStor claims that an ultracap can store about 280 watt
hours per kilogram. ZENN Motors , a maker of low-speed electric
vehicles, is planning to use Ultracap in its product line. ZENN Motors
is one of EEStor's investors.

source.
http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/18086/page1/

> > Unfortunately, electric battery technology is not at a
> > point where they provide an adequate storage capacity
> > for our on demand electric utility power needs so
> > a solar array and electric battery array system can't
> > be scaled up for an electric power grid/utility solution.
> > Electric batteries also have a limited lifespan which
> > drives up the cost of a solar array electric generation
> > system.
>
> Look up "Ultra-caps" and you will see where the future of electric power
> storage is going.


I hope this ultracap technology thingy works out.
I would be nice to run the laptop for 24hr straight
without having to recharge it.

>
>
> > Hydrogen fuel cells via hydrogen electric generators
> > can provides electric power on demand. Also hydrogen
> > fuel cells and electric generators can be scaled up
> > engineering wise to theoretically solve power needs
> > of an electric utility grid. Hydrogen could also be
> > created by wind generators or a hydro electric turbine.
> > If the combustion of hydrogen does not produce radioactive
> > waste or CO2 emission either.
>
> You're preaching to the choir with me.


When I saw the hydrogen genny at the solar decathlon was really taken
aback
It was so awesomely cool... .geez I want one of those!!!!!
That's a Jimmy Neutron home!!!


>
>
> > Theoretically, one might use solar/wind power as a
> > way to reduce the energy cost of making biodiesel or
> > ethanol.
>
> Both result in CO2 emissions. Biodiesel and Ethanol still have that
> basic C6H12O6 carbohydrate structure. Only straight Hydrogen burns into
> water vapor. Wind, solar, and hydro can all be used to generate
> electricity to make hydrogen with no pollution. Bio-anything will still
> burn Carbon and make more CO2, even if it is offset by the plants that
> are used recycling the CO2. This will probably go around for another
> 20-30 years before CO2 is taken out of the loop, if then. Right now,
> China is coming up fast as the biggest polluter in the world, so we can
> get clean and they will take up the slack on making pollution.
> Bill Baka

yeah... you're right. sigh.
but I'm soo use to tankin' up the car...
Some habits are hard to break...

Walter

drydem wrote:
> On Apr 29, 6:22 pm, Bill > wrote:
>> drydem wrote:
>>> On Apr 26, 6:32 am, Bill > wrote:
>>>> drydem wrote:
>>>>> I've seen hydrogen gas created by electrolysis at the last solar
>>>>> decathlon. A large solar array was used to create hydrogen
>>>>> from water via electrolysis and it was store in a hydrogen
>>>>> fuel cell storage facility (which acted like a battery for the
>>>>> hydrogen
>>>>> powered electric generators) .
>>>> On a more massive scale, one study showed that if 100 square miles of
>>>> Arizona desert could be covered in present day solar cells it could
>>>> easily power the entire country. I wonder if the $400 billion or so
>>>> spent in Iraq would have paid for the mass production of that many solar
>>>> cells???
>>> Solar cells can't store power and don't provide power at night.
>>> So they are not by themselves an alternate power
>>> solution since they can't provide power on demand.
>> Please don't give me ammo to give you the "Duh" award.
>> That is why there are battery banks and Ultra-caps.
>
> Duh. I don't think even Lithion-ion batteries would be a
> viable solution for a public utility power grid unless it
> was limited to powering something with a low power
> drain - e.g. land line telephone circuitry.

Right now Lithium batteries are way too expensive so that takes them out
of the loop financially.
>
> Ultra-capacitors[1] - from the little that I heard they sounded
> like high voltage/hi power/low leakage capacitors.
> I was never able to figure out how much power those
> things could handle or how they would be configured
> to scaled up power wise. Do you know? What I'd like
> to know is their lifespan vs Lithion Ions, e.g. MTBF.
> When I first heard of them I just thought they were a
> fancy hi quality electrolyic capacitor - being very old
> school - the first thing I thought about was cap
> leakage ( caps unlike batteries can't hold a charge
> for too due to leakage ) I suppose they company
> is using some sort of power transistor shunting
> device to limit cap leakage - how long it would work
> I'm not sure. Controlling the current and voltage levels
> is one of the engineering challenges in making a
> Hi voltage Hi current Ultra cap.

What I can tell you without searching is that they were first conceived
as a way to store energy for computers and the CPU current surges, so
the first ones were Farads, not microFarads, at 2 volts or so. Lately
there has been research on stacking them in huge arrays to store energy
for electric buses and other vehicle applications. Bicycles too. They
are inherently very low leakage and capable of big bursts of current, so
they have been proposed 'so far' as battery 'helpers', among other things.
>
>
> [1] Ultracapicator are a electrical storage device by EEStor (Texas)
> ultracapacitors store energy in an electrical field between two
> closely spaced conductors, or plates. When voltage is applied, an
> electric charge builds up on each plate. A composition of the barium-
> titanate powders is used to store voltage--in the range of 1,200 to
> 3,500 volts. EEStor claims that an ultracap can store about 280 watt
> hours per kilogram. ZENN Motors , a maker of low-speed electric
> vehicles, is planning to use Ultracap in its product line. ZENN Motors
> is one of EEStor's investors.
>
> source.
> http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/18086/page1/

Those guys are not the inventors, but just a start-up making big claims.
Ultra-caps are, for now, low voltage and need to be stacked to get any
real voltage, so your source may be in for a lawsuit or two by tagging
their product 'Ultra-caps'.
>
>>> Unfortunately, electric battery technology is not at a
>>> point where they provide an adequate storage capacity
>>> for our on demand electric utility power needs so
>>> a solar array and electric battery array system can't
>>> be scaled up for an electric power grid/utility solution.
>>> Electric batteries also have a limited lifespan which
>>> drives up the cost of a solar array electric generation
>>> system.
>> Look up "Ultra-caps" and you will see where the future of electric power
>> storage is going.
>
>
> I hope this ultracap technology thingy works out.
> I would be nice to run the laptop for 24hr straight
> without having to recharge it.

It is headed there. There is very little news and horn-blowing right now
since they are still doing a lot of basic research, but these are newer
even than the organic capacitors 'Oscons?' that came out about 10 years
ago. I used some of those in a 1998 engineering project but never got to
see the finished product since I was 'pushing' the Chinese design house
too hard to meet the specs they said they could meet. I got the boot
from that consulting job for trying too hard to do my job, and make the
Chinese do theirs. Some things you just can't win.
>
>>
>>> Hydrogen fuel cells via hydrogen electric generators
>>> can provides electric power on demand. Also hydrogen
>>> fuel cells and electric generators can be scaled up
>>> engineering wise to theoretically solve power needs
>>> of an electric utility grid. Hydrogen could also be
>>> created by wind generators or a hydro electric turbine.
>>> If the combustion of hydrogen does not produce radioactive
>>> waste or CO2 emission either.
>> You're preaching to the choir with me.
>
>
> When I saw the hydrogen genny at the solar decathlon was really taken
> aback
> It was so awesomely cool... .geez I want one of those!!!!!
> That's a Jimmy Neutron home!!!

And how big was the solar array to make that Hydrogen?
>
>
>>
>>> Theoretically, one might use solar/wind power as a
>>> way to reduce the energy cost of making biodiesel or
>>> ethanol.
>> Both result in CO2 emissions. Biodiesel and Ethanol still have that
>> basic C6H12O6 carbohydrate structure. Only straight Hydrogen burns into
>> water vapor. Wind, solar, and hydro can all be used to generate
>> electricity to make hydrogen with no pollution. Bio-anything will still
>> burn Carbon and make more CO2, even if it is offset by the plants that
>> are used recycling the CO2. This will probably go around for another
>> 20-30 years before CO2 is taken out of the loop, if then. Right now,
>> China is coming up fast as the biggest polluter in the world, so we can
>> get clean and they will take up the slack on making pollution.
>> Bill Baka
>
> yeah... you're right. sigh.
> but I'm soo use to tankin' up the car...
> Some habits are hard to break...
>
> Walter
>
Yeah,
I'm with you on the tanking up, but my hot rod Chrysler takes 26 gallons
of premium so it is getting close to $100 a fill up, hence it sits there
wanting to be driven but waiting for cheaper fill ups.
Even driving my Mazda or Mitsubishi 4 bangers is getting painful, so I
am biking to see my friends unless they want to pick me up, which one
does, in his Lincoln no less.
He claims it gets 17/25 MPG so it isn't that bad, and is actually better
than some new SUVs.
His money.
Bill Baka

"Bill" > wrote in message
t...
> George Conklin wrote:
> > "Bill" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> >> drydem wrote:
> >>> On Apr 26, 6:32 am, Bill > wrote:
> >>>> drydem wrote:
> >>>>> I've seen hydrogen gas created by electrolysis at the last solar
> >>>>> decathlon. A large solar array was used to create hydrogen
> >>>>> from water via electrolysis and it was store in a hydrogen
> >>>>> fuel cell storage facility (which acted like a battery for the
> >>>>> hydrogen
> >>>>> powered electric generators) .
> >>>> On a more massive scale, one study showed that if 100 square miles of
> >>>> Arizona desert could be covered in present day solar cells it could
> >>>> easily power the entire country. I wonder if the $400 billion or so
> >>>> spent in Iraq would have paid for the mass production of that many
> > solar
> >>>> cells???
> >>>
> >>> Solar cells can't store power and don't provide power at night.
> >>> So they are not by themselves an alternate power
> >>> solution since they can't provide power on demand.
> >> Please don't give me ammo to give you the "Duh" award.
> >> That is why there are battery banks and Ultra-caps.
> >>> Unfortunately, electric battery technology is not at a
> >>> point where they provide an adequate storage capacity
> >>> for our on demand electric utility power
> >
> > If batteries were as good as the above poster thinks, we would all
have
> > electric cars.
> >
> >
> Read up on "Ultra caps". They have virtually no degradation with
> charge/discharge cycles and rival the best batteries in energy storage.
> We don't all have electric cars because everyone seems to want a few
> hundred horsepower under their right foot. As for power grid use this
> type of cap will stay charged for months due to it's new technology.
> Bill (no BS this time) Baka

Drivel.

George Conklin wrote:
> "Bill" > wrote in message
> t...
>> George Conklin wrote:
>>> "Bill" > wrote in message
>>> .. .
>>>> drydem wrote:
>>>>> On Apr 26, 6:32 am, Bill > wrote:
>>>>>> drydem wrote:
>>>>>>> I've seen hydrogen gas created by electrolysis at the last solar
>>>>>>> decathlon. A large solar array was used to create hydrogen
>>>>>>> from water via electrolysis and it was store in a hydrogen
>>>>>>> fuel cell storage facility (which acted like a battery for the
>>>>>>> hydrogen
>>>>>>> powered electric generators) .
>>>>>> On a more massive scale, one study showed that if 100 square miles of
>>>>>> Arizona desert could be covered in present day solar cells it could
>>>>>> easily power the entire country. I wonder if the $400 billion or so
>>>>>> spent in Iraq would have paid for the mass production of that many
>>> solar
>>>>>> cells???
>>>>> Solar cells can't store power and don't provide power at night.
>>>>> So they are not by themselves an alternate power
>>>>> solution since they can't provide power on demand.
>>>> Please don't give me ammo to give you the "Duh" award.
>>>> That is why there are battery banks and Ultra-caps.
>>>>> Unfortunately, electric battery technology is not at a
>>>>> point where they provide an adequate storage capacity
>>>>> for our on demand electric utility power
>>> If batteries were as good as the above poster thinks, we would all
> have
>>> electric cars.
>>>
>>>
>> Read up on "Ultra caps". They have virtually no degradation with
>> charge/discharge cycles and rival the best batteries in energy storage.
>> We don't all have electric cars because everyone seems to want a few
>> hundred horsepower under their right foot. As for power grid use this
>> type of cap will stay charged for months due to it's new technology.
>> Bill (no BS this time) Baka
>
> Drivel.
>
>
I don't care if you believe me or not. These things are measured in
100's of Farads, not Micro-Farads. Find your own info.
I'm not giving pointers to the obvious.
Bill Baka

"Bill" > wrote in message
et...
> George Conklin wrote:
> > "Bill" > wrote in message
> > t...
> >> George Conklin wrote:
> >>> "Bill" > wrote in message
> >>> .. .
> >>>> drydem wrote:
> >>>>> On Apr 26, 6:32 am, Bill > wrote:
> >>>>>> drydem wrote:
> >>>>>>> I've seen hydrogen gas created by electrolysis at the last solar
> >>>>>>> decathlon. A large solar array was used to create hydrogen
> >>>>>>> from water via electrolysis and it was store in a hydrogen
> >>>>>>> fuel cell storage facility (which acted like a battery for the
> >>>>>>> hydrogen
> >>>>>>> powered electric generators) .
> >>>>>> On a more massive scale, one study showed that if 100 square miles
of
> >>>>>> Arizona desert could be covered in present day solar cells it could
> >>>>>> easily power the entire country. I wonder if the $400 billion or so
> >>>>>> spent in Iraq would have paid for the mass production of that many
> >>> solar
> >>>>>> cells???
> >>>>> Solar cells can't store power and don't provide power at night.
> >>>>> So they are not by themselves an alternate power
> >>>>> solution since they can't provide power on demand.
> >>>> Please don't give me ammo to give you the "Duh" award.
> >>>> That is why there are battery banks and Ultra-caps.
> >>>>> Unfortunately, electric battery technology is not at a
> >>>>> point where they provide an adequate storage capacity
> >>>>> for our on demand electric utility power
> >>> If batteries were as good as the above poster thinks, we would all
> > have
> >>> electric cars.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Read up on "Ultra caps". They have virtually no degradation with
> >> charge/discharge cycles and rival the best batteries in energy storage.
> >> We don't all have electric cars because everyone seems to want a few
> >> hundred horsepower under their right foot. As for power grid use this
> >> type of cap will stay charged for months due to it's new technology.
> >> Bill (no BS this time) Baka
> >
> > Drivel.
> >
> >
> I don't care if you believe me or not. These things are measured in
> 100's of Farads, not Micro-Farads. Find your own info.
> I'm not giving pointers to the obvious.
> Bill Baka

Quick.....call up Toyota and tell them about this.

George Conklin wrote:
> "Bill" > wrote in message
> et...
>
>>George Conklin wrote:
>>
>>>"Bill" > wrote in message
.net...
>>>
>>>>George Conklin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"Bill" > wrote in message
. net...
>>>>>
>>>>>>drydem wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Apr 26, 6:32 am, Bill > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>drydem wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I've seen hydrogen gas created by electrolysis at the last solar
>>>>>>>>>decathlon. A large solar array was used to create hydrogen
>>>>>>>>>from water via electrolysis and it was store in a hydrogen
>>>>>>>>>fuel cell storage facility (which acted like a battery for the
>>>>>>>>>hydrogen
>>>>>>>>>powered electric generators) .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On a more massive scale, one study showed that if 100 square miles
>
> of
>
>>>>>>>>Arizona desert could be covered in present day solar cells it could
>>>>>>>>easily power the entire country. I wonder if the $400 billion or so
>>>>>>>>spent in Iraq would have paid for the mass production of that many
>>>>>
>>>>>solar
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>cells???
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Solar cells can't store power and don't provide power at night.
>>>>>>>So they are not by themselves an alternate power
>>>>>>>solution since they can't provide power on demand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Please don't give me ammo to give you the "Duh" award.
>>>>>>That is why there are battery banks and Ultra-caps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Unfortunately, electric battery technology is not at a
>>>>>>>point where they provide an adequate storage capacity
>>>>>>>for our on demand electric utility power
>>>>>
>>>>> If batteries were as good as the above poster thinks, we would all
>>>
>>>have
>>>
>>>>>electric cars.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Read up on "Ultra caps". They have virtually no degradation with
>>>>charge/discharge cycles and rival the best batteries in energy storage.
>>>>We don't all have electric cars because everyone seems to want a few
>>>>hundred horsepower under their right foot. As for power grid use this
>>>>type of cap will stay charged for months due to it's new technology.
>>>>Bill (no BS this time) Baka
>>>
>>>Drivel.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I don't care if you believe me or not. These things are measured in
>>100's of Farads, not Micro-Farads. Find your own info.
>>I'm not giving pointers to the obvious.
>>Bill Baka
>
>
> Quick.....call up Toyota and tell them about this.
>
>

They're probably evaluating them already. An ultra-cap does have some
advantages over the batteries.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

George Conklin wrote:
> "Bill" > wrote in message
> et...
>> George Conklin wrote:
>>> Drivel.
>>>
>>>
>> I don't care if you believe me or not. These things are measured in
>> 100's of Farads, not Micro-Farads. Find your own info.
>> I'm not giving pointers to the obvious.
>> Bill Baka
>
> Quick.....call up Toyota and tell them about this.

I hate to break it to you but they could care less unless it is their
invention. The information is out there but I am not digging around to
prove a rather simple point...technology happens.
I have 75 tabs open now in Firefox, searching, and I am not going to
break it now for you.
Sorry,
Bill Baka

Nate Nagel wrote:
> George Conklin wrote:
>>
>> Quick.....call up Toyota and tell them about this.
>>
>>
>
> They're probably evaluating them already. An ultra-cap does have some
> advantages over the batteries.
>
> nate
>
They should be. It's the best thing I have seen in capacitors for quite
a while. At least someone knows what an ultra-cap is.
Bill Baka