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OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires



 
 
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  #51  
Old September 9th 07, 12:37 AM posted to alt.autos.toyota,rec.autos.tech
E Meyer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 267
Default OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires

On 9/8/07 9:25 AM, in article 01c7f223$682b6500$9698c3d8@race, "*"
> wrote:

>
>
> E Meyer > wrote in article
> >...
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/7/07 8:55 AM, in article 01c7f156$151493a0$f192c3d8@race, "*"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote in article

> <HP2Ei.16866$453.2177@trndny02>...
>>>> On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 08:32:34 -0500, * wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I make sure they fit the rims correctly.
>>>>>
>>>>> With today's tire and rim technology, how can a 14" tire fit a 14"

> rim
>>>>> incorrectly?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And you're telling me you're an 'expert?!?!?!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Toyo Proxes T1r
>>>> 195/45R14
>>>> 15Lbs.
>>>> 280 Treadwear
>>>> MP
>>>> V Rated
>>>> Tread Depth 10
>>>> Rim Width (Min/Max) 6 - 7.5
>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Toyo Proxes Tpt
>>>> 185/60R14
>>>> 16Lbs.
>>>> Rim Width (Min/Max) 5 - 6.5
>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you tried to put the first tire on the rim meant for the second

> tire,
>>>> the sidewall would blowout. A real recipe for disaster.
>>>>
>>>> If you don't know this, then NO WAY are you telling me what to do with

> my
>>>> tires!!!
>>>>
>>>> So, on my Corolla with OEM rims of 5.5", I had to take a set of wheels
>>> off
>>>> my Celica (6.5") to run the hi-poi 195/45-14s or run the risk of the
>>>> sidewall flexing too much and blowing the tire off the rim...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In spite of all your horse schidt, here is one undeniable fact......
>>>
>>>
>>> A tire supporting a 500 pound load will have a footprint of 20
>>> square-inches at an inflation pressure of 25 p.s.i. and a footprint of

> 12.5
>>> square-inches at 40 p.s.i. inflation. That's simple high school math

> and
>>> physics.
>>>
>>> The ONLY differences between the footprints of a "narrow" tire versus a
>>> "wide" tire is the SHAPE of the footprint. They BOTH require the

> same-sized
>>> footprint to support the same load at the same inflation pressures.
>>>
>>> With the 20 square-inch example, a ten-inch-wide tread will have a
>>> footprint that is ten-inches wide by two-inches long while a five-inch
>>> tread would have a footprint that is five-inches wide by four-inches

> long.
>>>
>>> With 25 pounds of air pressure, you need 20 square-inches to support

> 500
>>> pounds.....one way or another.
>>>
>>> By running your tires at maximum inflation, you are running the car at

> 62.5
>>> percent of the tire footprint that the car manufacturer has designed

> the
>>> suspension to work with.
>>>
>>>
>>>

>>
>> Undeniable fact?? Usually the stuff you put out is more or less correct
>> (bravado and SOB-ness not withstanding), but I need to see a legit

> reference
>> for this one.
>>
>>

>
>
> "The Racing & High-Performance Tire" by Paul Haney
>
> ISBN 0-9646414-2-9
>
> Available through SAE - or directly from Haney at:
>
> http://www.insideracingtechnology.com/
>
>
> Page 70 and 71 "Load and Internal Pressure"
>
>


This looks like the reference I was seeking. Thanks.

Ads
  #52  
Old September 9th 07, 01:25 AM posted to alt.autos.toyota,rec.autos.tech
Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 616
Default OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 09:28:27 -0500, * wrote:

>> > Undeniable fact?? Usually the stuff you put out is more or less

> correct
>> > (bravado and SOB-ness not withstanding), but I need to see a legit
>> > reference for this one.

>>
>>
>> I also want to see what's Horse Schidt about a manufacturer's
>> recommendation for rim widths.
>>
>> I'll take their word first...
>>
>>
>>
>>

>
> I've just answered Mr. Meyer's question.........
>
> When can I expect you to answer the questions I have posed to you?



Damn, Sam, if you're such an expert, you should know what I'm talking
about!


  #53  
Old September 9th 07, 01:28 AM posted to alt.autos.toyota,rec.autos.tech
Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 616
Default OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 12:23:45 -0500, * wrote:

>
>
> B.B. u> wrote in article
> >...
>> In article <01c7f150$8e8f9280$f192c3d8@race>,
>> "*" > wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> > Now, could you please answer the rest of the questions I asked?
>> >
>> > I'm REALLY curious about the part where you say, "I've been farting

> around
>> > with tires for 30 years, and using different sizes for different

> effects
>> > for 20."
>> >
>> > As I asked before, exactly what sort of "effects" have you
>> > experienced/observed using different tire sizes?
>> >
>> > And, I repeat......
>> >
>> > Since "....farting around...." with tires for 30 years has given you
>> > so much insight and technical knowledge, please.......
>> >
>> > Tell me about your tire's actual footprint at different inflations.
>> >
>> > Tell me about your tire's spring rate at different inflations.
>> >
>> > Tell me about your tire's sidewall stiffness ratings.
>> >
>> > Can't do it without a tire dyno, and I seriously doubt if you have
>> > one.....and, your daily tire kick doesn't even come close.

>>
>>

>
> My original question was directed towards his claim, "I've been farting
> around with tires for 30 years, and using different sizes for different
> effects for 20. "
>
> What, exactly, did he discover?
>
> And, what tells him that he is right?



Um, the way the car responds?!




>
>
>> How much does any of that matter in a passenger car? Really, I can
>> understand worry over those stats with a race car since they tend to
>> push the limits, but in an econo?

>
> Just wanted to see if he actually learned anything or was simply blowing
> smoke.....I'm betting on the smoke.....


I used to test aircraft components, spacesuits, and do Underwriter's Lab
testing. Trying different sized tires isn't Rocket Science...


>
>
>> FWIW, running a tire at a higher pressure will reduce contact area as
>> you have stated over and over, but it will also increase ground
>> pressure. I have seen nothing from you addressing the tradeoff--only an
>> assertion that less area means less traction. And with some conditions,
>> such as water on the road, higher ground pressure is far more valuable
>> than contact area.

>
> I wasn't speaking about rain tires or snow tires.
>
> That's not the condition under which the tire is used most.
>
> As far as I knew, we were discussing dry road, and had not even considered
> the complexities of less-than-ideal road surfaces.
>
> THAT's a whole 'nuther issue.
>
> Overinflation lifts the outside edges of the tire, effectively lengthening
> the contact patch by changing the length/width ratio of the contact patch.
>
> A wider, shorter contact patch (at the same inflation pressure) produces
> more grip because less of the contact patch is slipping at the same load
> and slip angle.
>
>
>> As long as there is enough pressure to keep the side wall from
>> bulging excessively and the tire isn't grossly above the max pressure
>> printed on it, just about any pressure will do.

>
>
> Only if you believe that 12.5 square-inches of contact patch on the ground
> will control the car as well as 20 square-inches,
>
> But, what if it is below the maximum pressure, but so overinflated for the
> load that the outer edges of the tread are picking up off the ground?
>
> I put load cells on my tire dyno, and you can actually SEE the loads on
> the outer edges of the tread decrease as we over-inflate the tire.
>
> On some steel-belted radials, you can see the outer edges GAIN in load as
> the tread wraps around the edges of the belt upon over-inflation.
>
>
>> But running low (as
>> most people do since they don't ever look at their tires until one goes
>> flat) accelerates tire wear.

>
> I agree....
>
>> He's not talking about race cars, so tire spring rate, sidewall
>> stiffness, and fancy tire dynos are irrelevant. A pressure gauge and
>> some eyeballs are sufficient.
>>
>>

> No, but he's talking some bull about having learned things by
> experimenting with the tires.


Yeah. It ain't too hard to figure out...





>
> Just calling him on his over-inflated (pun intended) bluff............
>
>
> Gotta' go. My 1:30 appointment just pulled into the yard.


  #54  
Old September 9th 07, 02:45 PM posted to alt.autos.toyota,rec.autos.tech
*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires



E Meyer > wrote in article
>...
> On 9/8/07 9:25 AM, in article 01c7f223$682b6500$9698c3d8@race, "*"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > E Meyer > wrote in article
> > >...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 9/7/07 8:55 AM, in article 01c7f156$151493a0$f192c3d8@race, "*"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote in article

> > <HP2Ei.16866$453.2177@trndny02>...
> >>>> On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 08:32:34 -0500, * wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>> I make sure they fit the rims correctly.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> With today's tire and rim technology, how can a 14" tire fit a 14"

> > rim
> >>>>> incorrectly?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> And you're telling me you're an 'expert?!?!?!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Toyo Proxes T1r
> >>>> 195/45R14
> >>>> 15Lbs.
> >>>> 280 Treadwear
> >>>> MP
> >>>> V Rated
> >>>> Tread Depth 10
> >>>> Rim Width (Min/Max) 6 - 7.5
> >>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Toyo Proxes Tpt
> >>>> 185/60R14
> >>>> 16Lbs.
> >>>> Rim Width (Min/Max) 5 - 6.5
> >>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> If you tried to put the first tire on the rim meant for the second

> > tire,
> >>>> the sidewall would blowout. A real recipe for disaster.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you don't know this, then NO WAY are you telling me what to do

with
> > my
> >>>> tires!!!
> >>>>
> >>>> So, on my Corolla with OEM rims of 5.5", I had to take a set of

wheels
> >>> off
> >>>> my Celica (6.5") to run the hi-poi 195/45-14s or run the risk of the
> >>>> sidewall flexing too much and blowing the tire off the rim...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> In spite of all your horse schidt, here is one undeniable fact......
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> A tire supporting a 500 pound load will have a footprint of 20
> >>> square-inches at an inflation pressure of 25 p.s.i. and a footprint

of
> > 12.5
> >>> square-inches at 40 p.s.i. inflation. That's simple high school math

> > and
> >>> physics.
> >>>
> >>> The ONLY differences between the footprints of a "narrow" tire versus

a
> >>> "wide" tire is the SHAPE of the footprint. They BOTH require the

> > same-sized
> >>> footprint to support the same load at the same inflation pressures.
> >>>
> >>> With the 20 square-inch example, a ten-inch-wide tread will have a
> >>> footprint that is ten-inches wide by two-inches long while a

five-inch
> >>> tread would have a footprint that is five-inches wide by four-inches

> > long.
> >>>
> >>> With 25 pounds of air pressure, you need 20 square-inches to support

> > 500
> >>> pounds.....one way or another.
> >>>
> >>> By running your tires at maximum inflation, you are running the car

at
> > 62.5
> >>> percent of the tire footprint that the car manufacturer has designed

> > the
> >>> suspension to work with.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> Undeniable fact?? Usually the stuff you put out is more or less

correct
> >> (bravado and SOB-ness not withstanding), but I need to see a legit

> > reference
> >> for this one.
> >>
> >>

> >
> >
> > "The Racing & High-Performance Tire" by Paul Haney
> >
> > ISBN 0-9646414-2-9
> >
> > Available through SAE - or directly from Haney at:
> >
> > http://www.insideracingtechnology.com/
> >
> >
> > Page 70 and 71 "Load and Internal Pressure"
> >
> >

>
> This looks like the reference I was seeking. Thanks.
>
>


I doubt if your local library has a copy of this book, but if your local
college/university participates in the "Formula SAE", it's a safe bet that
there is one on campus somewhere.


  #55  
Old September 9th 07, 02:46 PM posted to alt.autos.toyota,rec.autos.tech
*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires



Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote in article <Y3HEi.1602$Ic3.1251@trndny09>...
> On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 09:28:27 -0500, * wrote:
>
> >> > Undeniable fact?? Usually the stuff you put out is more or less

> > correct
> >> > (bravado and SOB-ness not withstanding), but I need to see a legit
> >> > reference for this one.
> >>
> >>
> >> I also want to see what's Horse Schidt about a manufacturer's
> >> recommendation for rim widths.
> >>
> >> I'll take their word first...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>

> >
> > I've just answered Mr. Meyer's question.........
> >
> > When can I expect you to answer the questions I have posed to you?

>
>
> Damn, Sam, if you're such an expert, you should know what I'm talking
> about!
>
>
>


You are, without a doubt, the MASTER of the non-answer.


  #56  
Old September 9th 07, 03:01 PM posted to alt.autos.toyota,rec.autos.tech
*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires



Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote in article <s6HEi.1603$Ic3.735@trndny09>...
> On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 12:23:45 -0500, * wrote:
>


> I used to test aircraft components, spacesuits, and do Underwriter's Lab
> testing. Trying different sized tires isn't Rocket Science...
>


Yet another non-answer.


> >> >
> >> > And, I repeat......
> >> >
> >> > Since "....farting around...." with tires for 30 years has given you
> >> > so much insight and technical knowledge, please.......
> >> >
> >> > Tell me about your tire's actual footprint at different inflations.
> >> >
> >> > Tell me about your tire's spring rate at different inflations.
> >> >
> >> > Tell me about your tire's sidewall stiffness ratings.
> >> >

>
>
> >
> >


You are S-o-o full of it, I'll bet your eyes are brown.


  #57  
Old September 9th 07, 03:01 PM posted to alt.autos.toyota,rec.autos.tech
*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires



Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote in article <Y3HEi.1602$Ic3.1251@trndny09>...
> On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 09:28:27 -0500, * wrote:
>
>
>
> Damn, Sam, if you're such an expert, you should know what I'm talking
> about!
>
>
>


More precisely, the question is if YOU know what you're talking about!

  #58  
Old September 9th 07, 03:01 PM posted to alt.autos.toyota,rec.autos.tech
*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires



Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote in article <s6HEi.1603$Ic3.735@trndny09>...

>
> Yeah. It ain't too hard to figure out...
>
>
>


If it's all so simple, and you have it "figured out", why do you feel
compelled to ask about it on an internet group?

Sounds as though its too hard for YOU to figure out with your extensive
training and background in tires.

What did you mean by "....a certain percentage of OEM spec....."?

  #59  
Old September 9th 07, 03:30 PM posted to alt.autos.toyota,rec.autos.tech
*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires



Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote in article <Y3HEi.1602$Ic3.1251@trndny09>...
> On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 09:28:27 -0500, * wrote:
>
> >> > Undeniable fact?? Usually the stuff you put out is more or less

> > correct
> >> > (bravado and SOB-ness not withstanding), but I need to see a legit
> >> > reference for this one.
> >>
> >>
> >> I also want to see what's Horse Schidt about a manufacturer's
> >> recommendation for rim widths.
> >>
> >> I'll take their word first...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>

> >
> > I've just answered Mr. Meyer's question.........
> >
> > When can I expect you to answer the questions I have posed to you?

>
>
> Damn, Sam, if you're such an expert, you should know what I'm talking
> about!
>
>


Your continued use of non-answers is quite telling.

Since you are unwilling - more likely UNABLE - to substantiate or clarify
ANY of your statements that I have asked you to substantiate or clarify, I
have come to the conclusion that you are a bag of wind - flatulent wind,
but wind, nonetheless.

You use buzz words, terms and outrageous statements you found in enthusiast
magazines in order to look like you actually know something.......

......but your actions in ducking questions give you away as a bullschidt
artist.

I STILL would like to understand just what you mean by "....a certain
percentage of OEM spec...." as it applies to your assessment of tires.





  #60  
Old September 9th 07, 04:42 PM posted to alt.autos.toyota,rec.autos.tech
Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 616
Default OEM Tires, Optional OEM tires, and totally off-the-wall tires

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 09:30:06 -0500, * wrote:

>
>
> Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote in article <Y3HEi.1602$Ic3.1251@trndny09>...
>> On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 09:28:27 -0500, * wrote:
>>
>> >> > Undeniable fact?? Usually the stuff you put out is more or less
>> > correct
>> >> > (bravado and SOB-ness not withstanding), but I need to see a legit
>> >> > reference for this one.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I also want to see what's Horse Schidt about a manufacturer's
>> >> recommendation for rim widths.
>> >>
>> >> I'll take their word first...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> > I've just answered Mr. Meyer's question.........
>> >
>> > When can I expect you to answer the questions I have posed to you?

>>
>>
>> Damn, Sam, if you're such an expert, you should know what I'm talking
>> about!
>>
>>
>>

> Your continued use of non-answers is quite telling.
>
> Since you are unwilling - more likely UNABLE - to substantiate or clarify
> ANY of your statements that I have asked you to substantiate or clarify, I
> have come to the conclusion that you are a bag of wind - flatulent wind,
> but wind, nonetheless.
>
> You use buzz words, terms and outrageous statements you found in
> enthusiast magazines in order to look like you actually know
> something.......
>
> .....but your actions in ducking questions give you away as a bullschidt
> artist.
>
> I STILL would like to understand just what you mean by "....a certain
> percentage of OEM spec...." as it applies to your assessment of tires.


You don't know what I mean by being within a 'percentage of OEM spec'?
Huh? It ain't Rocket Science here. Dooddamath...

Either that, or you're even more clueless than I think you are, no matter
how many racing tires you claim to have mounted.

And if you want to continue the insults, exactly *HOW* did you 'mount
them', buddy? ;P



 




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