hybrids: toyota vs. honda

Which do you think will be the superior powertrain, the industry standard?
I think Toyota's Synergy Drive will become the industry standard. It has
alot in common with a serial hybrid, similar to what is used in a
locomotive. The Honda Civic and Accord's IMA drive, OTOH, almost always
have the gas engine on (except at stoplights). The Synergy Drive is
powering a Prius that weighs about 400 lbs more than the Civic Hybrid, and
it also has a bit more horsepower to boot- yet it typically will get about
10mpg more ,especially in city driving.

I tested drove the Civic Hybrid and it was a nice car and got fairly good
gas mileage (about 40 mpg). A plus was that it didn't seem to un-carlike,
which is more than I can say for the Prius. OTOH, the Honda Accord Hybrid
is a bit of a muscle car, and doesn't get "great" gas mileage like the Civic
(but still better than a regular Accord). The Prius is fairly roomy with a
little less frontseat hedroom, has a wierd dash that doesn't really tickle
my fancy as much ( I preffer the speedometer to be a dial in front of the
steering wheel, the Prius has a pod slightly to the right and inside the
dashboard- and it's digital- to me, I always get more information from an
analog speedometer- quick glance down, look for the needle, and I can tell
alot faster than having to "read" a number). I have not tested drove one
yet, though, but it does get better gas mileage and comes with more safety
features as options than the Civic (traction control, side curtain airbags-
also it can have a GPS). And the Prius is a bit cheaper (IF you can find
one, though Toyota is stepping up production).

"fear" > wrote in message
...
>i wonder if Subaru has something in the all wheel drive/ hybrid in the
>works..
>
>
>

Oh Yeah!!! WRX Sport Wagon hybrid . . . awesome!!! Subaru, are you
listening? HINT HINT -Dave

"fear" > wrote in message
...
>i wonder if Subaru has something in the all wheel drive/ hybrid in the
>works..
>
>
>

Oh Yeah!!! WRX Sport Wagon hybrid . . . awesome!!! Subaru, are you
listening? HINT HINT -Dave

"Dave C." > wrote in message
...
> I love the idea of hybrids, but we live in New England, and are moving
soon
> to upstate New York (record snowfall area). If it aint AWD or 4WD, it
won't
> matter how efficiently the damn thing spins the wheels and digs a hole in
> the snow.

The Prius has traction/stability control, I believe. You have to be
aware, though, in less than optimal conditions (slick roads) it won't
accelerate as fast as a car without it, though, so if you are trying to cut
through a narrow opening of traffic, it might be better just to wait.

The Volkswagen Golf/Jetta TDI (and regular non-diesel) GLS's also have
traction control. If you live in NY though they'd be harder to get (they
can only sell I believe 5,000 diesel cars per year in the state, at least
until a switch is made to non-sulfur fuel and better catalytic converters).

You can always fit snow tires onto the car, too.

I live in Florida, and I've never driven on snow, so I can't speak from
experience (though I'd played plenty of rally simulators with snow driving,
and lots of drifting through corners, or more commonly, drifting and
slamming into things).

"Dave C." > wrote in message
...
> I love the idea of hybrids, but we live in New England, and are moving
soon
> to upstate New York (record snowfall area). If it aint AWD or 4WD, it
won't
> matter how efficiently the damn thing spins the wheels and digs a hole in
> the snow.

The Prius has traction/stability control, I believe. You have to be
aware, though, in less than optimal conditions (slick roads) it won't
accelerate as fast as a car without it, though, so if you are trying to cut
through a narrow opening of traffic, it might be better just to wait.

The Volkswagen Golf/Jetta TDI (and regular non-diesel) GLS's also have
traction control. If you live in NY though they'd be harder to get (they
can only sell I believe 5,000 diesel cars per year in the state, at least
until a switch is made to non-sulfur fuel and better catalytic converters).

You can always fit snow tires onto the car, too.

I live in Florida, and I've never driven on snow, so I can't speak from
experience (though I'd played plenty of rally simulators with snow driving,
and lots of drifting through corners, or more commonly, drifting and
slamming into things).

> You can always fit snow tires onto the car, too.
>
> I live in Florida, and I've never driven on snow, so I can't speak from
> experience (though I'd played plenty of rally simulators with snow
> driving,
> and lots of drifting through corners, or more commonly, drifting and
> slamming into things).
>

OK, snow tires do help. They are made to DIG IN to snow and toss it
(literally) rather than just spinning on top of it. But AWD helps even
more. Any AWD car will have more traction in snow than any other car with
2WD, regardless of tires. The reason is simple and easy to understand.
Wheels that are not driven do not just give a car less traction, but they
actually act as a BRAKE in the snow. That's because as your driven wheels
are trying to move the vehicle, snow is building up in front of the
non-driven wheels and trying to stop the vehicle. Consequently, with 2WD,
you need lots more traction on the driven wheels to overcome the force of
built-up snow trying to stop ALL the wheels. So AWD will give you roughly
200% better traction in (deeper) snow, as not only do the extra two (driven)
wheels add more traction, but those wheels are no longer acting as a BRAKE.
Then toss snow tires into the mix, and you've got gobs of traction to spare.
But adding snow tires to a 2WD vehicle will only cause your car to suck a
little less in deep snow. -Dave

> You can always fit snow tires onto the car, too.
>
> I live in Florida, and I've never driven on snow, so I can't speak from
> experience (though I'd played plenty of rally simulators with snow
> driving,
> and lots of drifting through corners, or more commonly, drifting and
> slamming into things).
>

OK, snow tires do help. They are made to DIG IN to snow and toss it
(literally) rather than just spinning on top of it. But AWD helps even
more. Any AWD car will have more traction in snow than any other car with
2WD, regardless of tires. The reason is simple and easy to understand.
Wheels that are not driven do not just give a car less traction, but they
actually act as a BRAKE in the snow. That's because as your driven wheels
are trying to move the vehicle, snow is building up in front of the
non-driven wheels and trying to stop the vehicle. Consequently, with 2WD,
you need lots more traction on the driven wheels to overcome the force of
built-up snow trying to stop ALL the wheels. So AWD will give you roughly
200% better traction in (deeper) snow, as not only do the extra two (driven)
wheels add more traction, but those wheels are no longer acting as a BRAKE.
Then toss snow tires into the mix, and you've got gobs of traction to spare.
But adding snow tires to a 2WD vehicle will only cause your car to suck a
little less in deep snow. -Dave

Dave C. wrote:
> > You can always fit snow tires onto the car, too.
> >
> > I live in Florida, and I've never driven on snow, so I can't
speak from
> > experience (though I'd played plenty of rally simulators with snow
> > driving,
> > and lots of drifting through corners, or more commonly, drifting
and
> > slamming into things).
> >
>
> OK, snow tires do help. They are made to DIG IN to snow and toss it
> (literally) rather than just spinning on top of it. But AWD helps
even
> more. Any AWD car will have more traction in snow than any other car
with
> 2WD, regardless of tires. The reason is simple and easy to
understand.

It's unfortunate that *you* don't understand it, then.

http://www.caranddriver.com/article....age_num ber=1

(mind the word wrap)

Tires make a huge difference. My AWD Audi with summer tires blows
goats on any kind of snow and ice, while my plodding FWD Audi
gear-and-people-hauler moves out quite smartly with snows all around.
Non-studded snows, BTW. And this works better than my AWD + no-season
tires. (All-season = no-season.)

But the absolute BEST situation is snows and AWD. Even cheap T-rated
snows are an improvement over no-season tires in the ice, snow and
slush.

HAND,

E.P.

Dave C. wrote:
> > You can always fit snow tires onto the car, too.
> >
> > I live in Florida, and I've never driven on snow, so I can't
speak from
> > experience (though I'd played plenty of rally simulators with snow
> > driving,
> > and lots of drifting through corners, or more commonly, drifting
and
> > slamming into things).
> >
>
> OK, snow tires do help. They are made to DIG IN to snow and toss it
> (literally) rather than just spinning on top of it. But AWD helps
even
> more. Any AWD car will have more traction in snow than any other car
with
> 2WD, regardless of tires. The reason is simple and easy to
understand.

It's unfortunate that *you* don't understand it, then.

http://www.caranddriver.com/article....age_num ber=1

(mind the word wrap)

Tires make a huge difference. My AWD Audi with summer tires blows
goats on any kind of snow and ice, while my plodding FWD Audi
gear-and-people-hauler moves out quite smartly with snows all around.
Non-studded snows, BTW. And this works better than my AWD + no-season
tires. (All-season = no-season.)

But the absolute BEST situation is snows and AWD. Even cheap T-rated
snows are an improvement over no-season tires in the ice, snow and
slush.

HAND,

E.P.

> It's unfortunate that *you* don't understand it, then.
>
> http://www.caranddriver.com/article....age_num ber=1
>
> (mind the word wrap)
>
> Tires make a huge difference.

Yes, they do. That's why an AUDI AWD with Bridgestone anything in winter
weather will be sliding all over the fricking road with the white-knuckled
driver concentrating hard just to get to point B without needing thousands
of dollars of body work by the time he gets there.

Tires do make a huge difference. But if you've ever driven a vehicle on
deep snow WITH SNOW TIRES and simply switched from 2WD to 4WD, you will
immediately know that AWD/4WD helps a LOT more than simply changing tires.
The difference is remarkable, and immediately apparent. If you want to get
somewhere in an area with real winter weather, start with all four wheels
driven. Then add snow tires.

Yes, it could be argued that better tires help you stop as well as go. But
if you have trouble stopping in snow, then you are driving too fast for
conditions, REGARDLESS of whether you have decent tires or not. The car
and/or tires can not save your ass, if you drive the car like you WANT to
destroy it. -Dave