Are classic cars discriminated against?

I keep running into more and more problems getting service on things I can't do
myself. It would be interesting to know if others run into this too. On the
first visit, some places flatly refuse to accept customers who have older cars.
Others keep coming up with excuses as to why they can't get to the car. One
complained about people going to big auto parts chain stores for "cheap"
supplies. Another wouldn't look at the car because I told them I had put new
spark plugs in it--they said they didn't work on cars that had had things done
to them.

If this has happened to you, what do you do about it?

Rustler wrote:
>
> I keep running into more and more problems getting service on things I can't do
> myself. It would be interesting to know if others run into this too.

I've never been refused service by a Ford dealer on a Ford, though I have had
to provide the parts myself on occasion. I also once had to drive my car into
the service bay because nobody there knew how to drive a "3 on the tree".

George Patterson
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something that cannot
be learned any other way. Samuel Clemens

Unfortunatly, newer cars are drastically different from the old ones
many of us like. Mechanics these days are cranked out of very specialized
schools that only teach servicing of newer vehicles.

Chances are you wouldn't want any of these folks working on your car!

Steve

Rustler > wrote in message
...
> I keep running into more and more problems getting service on things I
can't do
> myself. It would be interesting to know if others run into this too. On
the
> first visit, some places flatly refuse to accept customers who have older
cars.
> Others keep coming up with excuses as to why they can't get to the car.
One
> complained about people going to big auto parts chain stores for "cheap"
> supplies. Another wouldn't look at the car because I told them I had put
new
> spark plugs in it--they said they didn't work on cars that had had things
done
> to them.
>
> If this has happened to you, what do you do about it?

On 24 Sep 2003 10:46:31 GMT, (Rustler) wrote:
>If this has happened to you, what do you do about it?

I've had lots of shops tell me they don't work on old classics. The
big issues seem to be parts availability and things like stuck 40-year
old fasteners or working around someone's crappy fixes. Some places
simply don't have anyone old enough to know how the cars work -
carburetors are something modern mechanics learned about in school,
but lots of them have never had to work on them. If the car's
something unusual, like my '66 Rolls-Royce, they aren't going to be
familiar with it at all and won't want to mess it up.
The classic car community is just that, a community. Join a club
and you'll find people that can recommend shops that will work on your
car, or people willing to help you work on it yourself. If you don't
want to work on it yourself, just as well get a Ferrari
Emanuel
--
Sony VAIO 505 info - http://home.att.net/~epbrown01/sony505.html
Join the 505 Mailing List - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sony505/

Emanuel Brown > wrote in article
>...
> On 24 Sep 2003 10:46:31 GMT, (Rustler) wrote:
> >If this has happened to you, what do you do about it?
>
> I've had lots of shops tell me they don't work on old classics. The
> big issues seem to be parts availability and things like stuck 40-year
> old fasteners or working around someone's crappy fixes. Some places
> simply don't have anyone old enough to know how the cars work -
> carburetors are something modern mechanics learned about in school,
> but lots of them have never had to work on them. If the car's
> something unusual, like my '66 Rolls-Royce, they aren't going to be
> familiar with it at all and won't want to mess it up.
> The classic car community is just that, a community. Join a club
> and you'll find people that can recommend shops that will work on your
> car, or people willing to help you work on it yourself. If you don't
> want to work on it yourself, just as well get a Ferrari
> Emanuel
> --
> Sony VAIO 505 info - http://home.att.net/~epbrown01/sony505.html
> Join the 505 Mailing List - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sony505/
>

Just a quick "something to think about" from the other side....

I specialize in working on the non-standard stuff - race cars, street rods
and antiques.

I run a one-man, one-bay shop that I could keep booked out six months if I
chose to do so. Because I choose to focus on race cars, and often have to
accommodate an emergency repair from a weekend's crash, I don't commit much
beyond a few weeks into the future.

My business card states, "Specializing in Race Cars, Street Rods and
Antiques. We do NOT do general maintenance and repairs. Please do not ask!"

I don't have a problem with parts accessibility for antiques and classics -
as long as the owner doesn't have a problem waiting and/or shagging the
stuff himself. I suspect that many shops use that statement as a ploy to
maintain their "flat rate shop" style of doing business and to not be
required to work on the older cars. I do not fault them for their business
choices.

The problem I often have with "classic" owners is that many of them expect
you to work at "classic" 1950s rates.

I often have to straighten out some of the owner's less-than-correct work
("You mean that the spark plugs I put in *really* didn't come from the
manufacturer pre-gapped?") before I get onto the original problem for which
the vehicle was brought to me.

Then, there is always the retired "tinkerer" on the other side of town who
will attempt to do the same job for half what I quoted. He *may* actually
do something for his fee, but it often isn't exactly the "same job" as I
had planned to do - if you know what I mean.

I tell price-quibblers to bring it there, but to expect to pay me my hourly
rate to undo any damage and/or incompetent repairs in addition to my
original quote to do the initial job correctly if they later
decide/discover that I was the right person to do the job after all.

I'm not trying to get rich or be a hard-ass, but I DO want to get paid
fairly for my 40 years experience - much of which came from working on most
of these "classics" when they were new or near-new, regularly plying the
roads.

For example, I had two customers with Rolls Royces - one a '63 and the
other a '65 which I regularly serviced and repaired in the '60s, and I did
a number of OHV Pontiac six-cylinder conversions into then-late-model Jag
XKEs when the British parts distribution in the USA was nearly
non-existent.

Got to know the "Prince of Darkness" intimately, and came to realize that
the British drink warm beer because they all own Lucas refrigerators..

I love what I do, but just because you look upon it as a hobby, doesn't
mean I should be providing my hard-earned knowledge and hands-on skills for
the enjoyment of it all.

Respectfully,

Bob Paulin - R.A.C.E.
Chassis Analysis Services

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Rustler wrote:
> >
> >snip<<
> I also once had to drive my car into
> the service bay because nobody there knew how to drive a "3 on the tree".
>

You should see the looks on their faces when they get in my 300 and
don't even see a gear shift! I let 'em sit for a minute or two them show
them the push buttons on the dash!

Rustler wrote:
>
> I keep running into more and more problems getting service on things I can't do
> myself. It would be interesting to know if others run into this too. On the
> first visit, some places flatly refuse to accept customers who have older cars.
> Others keep coming up with excuses as to why they can't get to the car. One
> complained about people going to big auto parts chain stores for "cheap"
> supplies. Another wouldn't look at the car because I told them I had put new
> spark plugs in it--they said they didn't work on cars that had had things done
> to them.
>
> If this has happened to you, what do you do about it?

I have a 65 LeMans and I drove around town and "interviewed" several
garages before taking my car to one. I knew I found a good match when I
saw a 67 Camaro and 57 Chevy in the back of one place. I asked the
manager if they were some cars they had worked on. He said, "No, those
belong to my two best mechanics." I haven't been disappointed.

rick

"Bob Paulin" > wrote in message
news:01c382c7$f0489fe0$8c93c3d8@race...
> Emanuel Brown > wrote in article
> >...
> > On 24 Sep 2003 10:46:31 GMT, (Rustler) wrote:
> > >If this has happened to you, what do you do about it?
> >
> > I've had lots of shops tell me they don't work on old classics.

<snip>

> > Emanuel
> > --
> > Sony VAIO 505 info - http://home.att.net/~epbrown01/sony505.html
> > Join the 505 Mailing List - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sony505/
> >
>
> Just a quick "something to think about" from the other side....
>
> I specialize in working on the non-standard stuff - race cars, street rods
> and antiques.
>
<snip>
>
> The problem I often have with "classic" owners is that many of them expect
> you to work at "classic" 1950s rates.
>
> I often have to straighten out some of the owner's less-than-correct work
> ("You mean that the spark plugs I put in *really* didn't come from the
> manufacturer pre-gapped?") before I get onto the original problem for
which
> the vehicle was brought to me.
>

<snip>

> I'm not trying to get rich or be a hard-ass, but I DO want to get paid
> fairly for my 40 years experience - much of which came from working on
most
> of these "classics" when they were new or near-new, regularly plying the
> roads.
>
<SNIP>

>
> I love what I do, but just because you look upon it as a hobby, doesn't
> mean I should be providing my hard-earned knowledge and hands-on skills
for
> the enjoyment of it all.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Bob Paulin - R.A.C.E.

Bob,

For many of the clients, it is also a passion, we recognize great work, and
just as great the experience in good mechanics. Why would we spend our dough
to restore these cars way beyond their market value otherwise ? I hope you
have not had to deal with too many price-quibblers, but most of us do have
to take into consideration costs (my pockets are not Horns of Plenty) and I
always ask about options (usually do it now, later, self, NOS, cored,
rebuilt ..., but never about labor (hours or cost)) and the most appreciated
mechanic is the one that spends the time (his and mine) to explain in
*detail* what went wrong, what I did wrong, what I should do ....

Good mechanics are rare(er) but gems!!

As to all those guys doing work on moderns, I would not let them change the
oil on any of my cars (old or new) if they look at my "rust buckets"
sideways -- just bad karma I guess but I like the person to enjoy woking on
my car and if they grumble I take it elsewhere. Having said that I usually
find a great guy (club, word of mouth) and stick to him. My father's old
mech (70's) did work on our cars for over 30 years ....

Keep drvin'
Eugenio

"Steve" ) writes:
> Unfortunatly, newer cars are drastically different from the old ones
> many of us like. Mechanics these days are cranked out of very specialized
> schools that only teach servicing of newer vehicles.
>
> Chances are you wouldn't want any of these folks working on your car!

I have made the mistake of taking my '68 Mercury to a garage in the
rust belt that was trusted by my father. They haven't seen any cars
built before 1980 in a long time. Fortunately, I set the points prior
to them getting at it. They replaced the timing chain which had jumped
a tooth, but from there they sold me a starter solenoid I didn't need
and replaced a fuel pump that was on the way out but I could have still
cranked some miles out of it. The part I was most upset about was them
fixing my starter which had just been fixed because they didn't get
any power to it. Yanking the gearshift towards 'park' while turning
the key would have saved me from replacing the ring gear that got
chewed up by the starter shim that went loose because of their incom-
petence. The trouble is that real mechanics have become a thing of the
past, replaced by guys who only know how to replace entire components
or groups of components until it works properly where a simple turn
of a screw or a bit of common sense would have worked better and
saved the customer a pile of money...

I often would like to travel back in time some 30 or 40 years...
--
'dreas...tbtw#5 'They say for centuries lovely Japanese girls
Victoria Taxi#15 have been trained in the art of pleasin' men.
Be lonely no more, open destiny's door. For one dollar they'll arrange
a meeting.' -Bonzo Dog Band/Lookout there's a monster coming

I have to agree hole harted with Bob as I also do this for a living also .So
I see this every day and it has nothing to do with deep pockets .A lot of
customers can't find anyone to work on their car because most of the new age
wrench's don't know diagnostics or at least without a scan tool . They come
to you after some hack has been working on it and figure they have paid once
to fix it so really don't want you to charge anything . Prime case was a 34
Ford that belonged to a 5 Star hotel . They had spent 1500 or so and the guy
did zip and it sat in the parking garage for months since it still wouldn't
run .They brought it to me I told them since they were not car people and
didn't know how to do any maintenance it would save them time and money in
the long run to replace the distributor with an electronic one since parts
for the crab style are almost impossible to get .Took me 2 weeks to convince
them .After I finished I told them I had run the car up to 50 mph with no
problem other than the king pins were wasted .My bill was less than the
other guy that didn't replace anything but all they did was bitch about the
price .
Or maybe the big CEO who flat asked it I would cut my labor rate . Now this
guy has no problem dropping a 100 an hour at the dealer on his new car but
tried to nickel and dime me to build his Nomad for 1/2 that .
Then you have the ones who want discount parts and no labor to do a job and
want a 20 year warranty on your work
The list goes on and on so if it were not for my love of cars I sure
wouldn't put my self through the BS with customers on a daily basis. '
Now do not get me wrong a lot of my customers do care about my quality and
my work standard and say so in voice ,tips ,presents etc but for the
others you REALLY have to love cars to put up with their BS
Most of the cars I refuse are not because of the car it self but the human
that drove it in
Mike Shambarger
Classic Auto Works
> > I'm not trying to get rich or be a hard-ass, but I DO want to get paid
> > fairly for my 40 years experience - much of which came from working on
> most
> > of these "classics" when they were new or near-new, regularly plying the
> > roads.
> >
> <SNIP>
>
> >
> > I love what I do, but just because you look upon it as a hobby, doesn't
> > mean I should be providing my hard-earned knowledge and hands-on skills
> for
> > the enjoyment of it all.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Bob Paulin - R.A.C.E.
>
> Bob,
>
> For many of the clients, it is also a passion, we recognize great work,
and
> just as great the experience in good mechanics. Why would we spend our
dough
> to restore these cars way beyond their market value otherwise ? I hope you
> have not had to deal with too many price-quibblers, but most of us do have
> to take into consideration costs (my pockets are not Horns of Plenty) and
I
> always ask about options (usually do it now, later, self, NOS, cored,
> rebuilt ..., but never about labor (hours or cost)) and the most
appreciated
> mechanic is the one that spends the time (his and mine) to explain in
> *detail* what went wrong, what I did wrong, what I should do ....
>
> Good mechanics are rare(er) but gems!!
>
> As to all those guys doing work on moderns, I would not let them change
the
> oil on any of my cars (old or new) if they look at my "rust buckets"
> sideways -- just bad karma I guess but I like the person to enjoy woking
on
> my car and if they grumble I take it elsewhere. Having said that I usually
> find a great guy (club, word of mouth) and stick to him. My father's old
> mech (70's) did work on our cars for over 30 years ....
>
> Keep drvin'
> Eugenio
>
>