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#21
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to change a Honda Accord 1988 model timing belt
Matt Ion wrote:
> TeGGeR® wrote: > >> You find mistakes? TELL ME. I NEED submissions. I only have one car >> myself. Any other experiences I have come from working on others' >> cars, or from submissions I receive from others. I have NO ego and a >> very thick skin. I've been on Usenet for quite a few years and am >> very used to criticism and MORE than eager to fix mistakes. > > Have you ever thought of setting the site up using a "Wiki" back-end? > Might make ongoing maintenance easier, and add better support for > searching and indexing and such. what would a wiki backend do? |
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#22
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to change a Honda Accord 1988 model timing belt
SoCalMike wrote:
> Matt Ion wrote: > >> TeGGeR® wrote: >> >>> You find mistakes? TELL ME. I NEED submissions. I only have one car >>> myself. Any other experiences I have come from working on others' >>> cars, or from submissions I receive from others. I have NO ego and a >>> very thick skin. I've been on Usenet for quite a few years and am >>> very used to criticism and MORE than eager to fix mistakes. >> >> >> Have you ever thought of setting the site up using a "Wiki" back-end? >> Might make ongoing maintenance easier, and add better support for >> searching and indexing and such. > > > what would a wiki backend do? allow contributors to add content directly rather than have tegger do all the work. |
#23
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to change a Honda Accord 1988 model timing belt
"TeGGeR®" > wrote in
: > "Elle" > wrote in > ink.net: > >> "TeGGeR®" > wrote >> > > I'll put together a site on the crankshaft pulley bolt, >> > > temporarily >>> > post it (like for the next year or so), and you can use it as you >>> > like. I'll try to make it blend with what you have already at your >>> > site, so you can copy and paste as easily as possible. >>> >>> If you set up your own site on that, I'll link to it in the FAQ. >> >> Here is my nauseously detailed discussion of crankshaft pulleys and >> holder tools and oil in spark plug tubes. >> >> http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/index.html >> >> Pithy suggested changes are welcome. >> >> >> >> > > I'll check it out later, thanks for putting that up. > OK, first impressions upon reading your site: CRANK PULLEY ------------ 1) Nicely done up, clearly written. I /finally/ understand what that guy was trying to say a long time ago when he was attempting to describe the holder for pulleys with the ring of round holes! 2) I have very serious reservations about your assertion that the bolt tightens over time due to heat cycling. This frankly makes no sense at all. Consider that the crankshaft nose heats and cools identically with the bolt. I would like to see some citations supporting that theory. I have linked your pages to mine in spite of this, but that paragraph really should be removed. 3) Neither does it make sense that the bolt tightens because of the way it's turning. The pulley is keyed positively in place, and the bolt has far less mass than the crankshaft. The crank cannot spin up faster than the bolt for the simple reason of greater inertia. It is impossible for the bolt to tighten as the engine spins unless it's been severely undertorqued in the first place (as in finger-LOOSE), and even then it would tend to vibrate out instead. That crankshaft bolt is hard to undo for two reasons: 1) The well-known phenomenon that it takes a lot more than tightening torque to break the static friction between the surfaces of the bolt and its receptacle, and 2) corrosion. This is why a blow from an air-hammer is almost 100% effective even on the worst bolts. The blow breaks the rust seal. I suppose it's possible for rust to form between the pulley and the crankshaft nose (similarly to the way it does between brake rotor and hub), which would have the effect of putting a tremendous amount of force on the bolt as it pushes the pulley outwards. 4) Jamieson's and Curly's homemade pulley holder is for the pulley with a hex, not the one with no hex and no lip. OIL IN THE PLUG HOLES --------------------- 1) There is an even easier way of determining #1 cyl compression TDC if you've already got the valve cover off: Just make sure the #1 cyl's valves are closed as the timing marks are lined up. That way nothing has to get stuck in the spark plug hole. If the person doing the operation can not tell if the valves are closed by that method, then he shouldn't be doing this kind of work anyway. REMOVING THE CRANK BOLT, from http://www.cadvision.com/blanchas/54pontiac/honda.html --------------------- The page contains some good info, but also a couple of fairly poor things that mark the author as somewhat inexperienced. Specifically these two: 1) "Use the starter motor to loosen the bolt once your wrench is secure (strips flywheel teeth)" This is utter nonsense. It's a method used all the time in non-Honda vehicles and is quite effective indeed. The starter and ring gear are not at risk. The method can NOT be used on most Hondas because the engine turns the wrong way, and for no other reason. 2) "Use an air hammer _ probably damage something in the engine, drivetrain and your ears with all that pounding" Nonsense as well. You don't use the hammer to take the bolt off, you use it to break the rust seal. And you don't do it repeatedly, but deliver only one or two blows. This is also very effective. -- TeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
#24
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to change a Honda Accord 1988 model timing belt
Matt Ion > wrote in
newsUq8f.337951$tl2.334328@pd7tw3no: > TeGGeR® wrote: > >> You find mistakes? TELL ME. I NEED submissions. I only have one car >> myself. Any other experiences I have come from working on others' >> cars, or from submissions I receive from others. I have NO ego and a >> very thick skin. I've been on Usenet for quite a few years and am >> very used to criticism and MORE than eager to fix mistakes. > > Have you ever thought of setting the site up using a "Wiki" back-end? > Might make ongoing maintenance easier, and add better support for > searching and indexing and such. Don't know what you mean by "'Wiki' back-end". Could you explain briefly? I'd dig it up myself, but I'm a bit tired just now. -- TeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
#26
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to change a Honda Accord 1988 model timing belt
TeGGeR® wrote:
> "TeGGeR®" > wrote in > : > > >>"Elle" > wrote in hlink.net: >> >> >>>"TeGGeR®" > wrote >>> >>>>>I'll put together a site on the crankshaft pulley bolt, >>>>>temporarily >>>>>post it (like for the next year or so), and you can use it as you >>>>>like. I'll try to make it blend with what you have already at your >>>>>site, so you can copy and paste as easily as possible. >>>> >>>>If you set up your own site on that, I'll link to it in the FAQ. >>> >>>Here is my nauseously detailed discussion of crankshaft pulleys and >>>holder tools and oil in spark plug tubes. >>> >>>http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/index.html >>> >>>Pithy suggested changes are welcome. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>I'll check it out later, thanks for putting that up. >> > > > > OK, first impressions upon reading your site: > > > CRANK PULLEY > ------------ > 1) Nicely done up, clearly written. I /finally/ understand what that guy > was trying to say a long time ago when he was attempting to describe the > holder for pulleys with the ring of round holes! > > 2) I have very serious reservations about your assertion that the bolt > tightens over time due to heat cycling. This frankly makes no sense at all. > Consider that the crankshaft nose heats and cools identically with the > bolt. I would like to see some citations supporting that theory. > > I have linked your pages to mine in spite of this, but that paragraph > really should be removed. > > 3) Neither does it make sense that the bolt tightens because of the way > it's turning. The pulley is keyed positively in place, and the bolt has far > less mass than the crankshaft. The crank cannot spin up faster than the > bolt for the simple reason of greater inertia. It is impossible for the > bolt to tighten as the engine spins unless it's been severely undertorqued > in the first place (as in finger-LOOSE), and even then it would tend to > vibrate out instead. in this instance, it /can/ tighten because of crank rotation direction. the pulley /is/ keyed as you say, but it still has a small degree of lash, and the pulley/bolt still have momentum. and crank rotation velocity spikes with each cylinder combustion. when i was messing about with my crx, i played with the bolt tightness a little bit and found that i could have the bolt done to torque and easy to undo again, [i forgot something and had to remove the pulley a couple of times] yet one high speed test drive later, the bolt's one super-tight sob again! bottom line, sure, rust plays a part and the threads may even be treated with some form of locker, but if you think about crank rotation and tightening direction vs. pulley momentum, it /can/ progressively tighten over time. > > That crankshaft bolt is hard to undo for two reasons: 1) The well-known > phenomenon that it takes a lot more than tightening torque to break the > static friction between the surfaces of the bolt and its receptacle, and 2) > corrosion. This is why a blow from an air-hammer is almost 100% effective > even on the worst bolts. The blow breaks the rust seal. > > I suppose it's possible for rust to form between the pulley and the > crankshaft nose (similarly to the way it does between brake rotor and hub), > which would have the effect of putting a tremendous amount of force on the > bolt as it pushes the pulley outwards. > > 4) Jamieson's and Curly's homemade pulley holder is for the pulley with a > hex, not the one with no hex and no lip. > > > OIL IN THE PLUG HOLES > --------------------- > 1) There is an even easier way of determining #1 cyl compression TDC if > you've already got the valve cover off: Just make sure the #1 cyl's valves > are closed as the timing marks are lined up. That way nothing has to get > stuck in the spark plug hole. > > If the person doing the operation can not tell if the valves are closed by > that method, then he shouldn't be doing this kind of work anyway. > > > REMOVING THE CRANK BOLT, from > http://www.cadvision.com/blanchas/54pontiac/honda.html > --------------------- > > The page contains some good info, but also a couple of fairly poor things > that mark the author as somewhat inexperienced. Specifically these two: > > 1) "Use the starter motor to loosen the bolt once your wrench is secure > (strips flywheel teeth)" > This is utter nonsense. It's a method used all the time in non-Honda > vehicles and is quite effective indeed. The starter and ring gear are not > at risk. The method can NOT be used on most Hondas because the engine turns > the wrong way, and for no other reason. > > 2) "Use an air hammer _ probably damage something in the engine, drivetrain > and your ears with all that pounding" > Nonsense as well. You don't use the hammer to take the bolt off, you use it > to break the rust seal. And you don't do it repeatedly, but deliver only > one or two blows. This is also very effective. > |
#27
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to change a Honda Accord 1988 model timing belt
"TeGGeR®" > wrote
E > >> Here is my nauseously detailed discussion of crankshaft pulleys and > >> holder tools and oil in spark plug tubes. > >> > >> http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/index.html > 2) I have very serious reservations about your assertion that the bolt > tightens over time due to heat cycling. This frankly makes no sense at all. To me, it does because (1) I am acquainted with industrial size bolts being torqued using bolt heaters; and (2) no other explanation (not rust or your other theory) seems reasonable. I do agree I should qualify my statements at the site and say something like, "My theory for the high torque after operation is... " > Consider that the crankshaft nose heats and cools identically with the > bolt. I wouldn't say that. I don't know their respective materials, for one thing. Geometry plays a role, too. > I would like to see some citations supporting that theory. Haven't seen any, beyond my knowledge of bolt heaters being used to torque down bolts in industrial applications. > I have linked your pages to mine in spite of this, but that paragraph > really should be removed. You don't have to link any of it. I won't be offended or anything. > 3) Neither does it make sense that the bolt tightens because of the way > it's turning. The pulley is keyed positively in place, and the bolt has far > less mass than the crankshaft. The crank cannot spin up faster than the > bolt for the simple reason of greater inertia. It sounds like you're presuming some sort of rigid connection between bolt and pulley. One can unscrew the bolt from the crankshaft, with both crankshaft and pulley fixed (because of the key). This means one can screw the crankshaft-keyed-to-pulley onto the bolt as well, so to speak. The group (including you and me) discussed this last year, before I had actually done a TB job. Back then I agreed with you that the key prevented the crankshaft from rotating onto the bolt (so to speak). I feel I was wrong. The final word on the net seems to be it's unclear what the cause is, but heat cycling and rust are not ruled out. > It is impossible for the > bolt to tighten as the engine spins unless it's been severely undertorqued > in the first place (as in finger-LOOSE), and even then it would tend to > vibrate out instead. Or if it's heated such that it expands, as I described at the site. It does heat gradually, and simultaneous to the crankshaft turning so as to tighten the connection. It's not going to be terribly obvious. Querying about what holds the bolt steady enough so that the crankshaft screws onto the bolt is a fair question. I would say just inertia. It shouldn't take much rotation at all, at high enough bolt temperatures, to tighten that. I suppose one could do a test: After removing and torquing the bolt to spec, magic marker a line down a diameter of the bolt and pulley. Operate the engine for a few months. Check whether the line breaks up. > That crankshaft bolt is hard to undo for two reasons: 1) The well-known > phenomenon that it takes a lot more than tightening torque to break the > static friction between the surfaces of the bolt and its receptacle, and 2) > corrosion. This is why a blow from an air-hammer is almost 100% effective > even on the worst bolts. The blow breaks the rust seal. > > I suppose it's possible for rust to form between the pulley and the > crankshaft nose (similarly to the way it does between brake rotor and hub), > which would have the effect of putting a tremendous amount of force on the > bolt as it pushes the pulley outwards. I remain tentative about any rust theory here. It's not like much water can get up in there. When I last removed the bolt from my Honda, it looked pretty clean. > 4) Jamieson's and Curly's homemade pulley holder is for the pulley with a > hex, Yes, this is what I say: It's for what I call category (1) pulleys. Maybe re-ordering the paragraphs could make things more clear. > not the one with no hex and no lip. > OIL IN THE PLUG HOLES > --------------------- > 1) There is an even easier way of determining #1 cyl compression TDC if > you've already got the valve cover off: Just make sure the #1 cyl's valves > are closed as the timing marks are lined up. If you are referring to the rocker arms not riding on the camshaft lobes, and so indicating the intake valves are shut yada, the site mentions this. Again, it's no problem if you decide not to link up these pages to your site. Everyone has their opinions. Some are quickly refuted. Other issues remain controversial. I don't have a need to rehash the controversy. I think the bigger question is: Do sites like yours, mine, and the Blanchas site help people? I used the Blanchas site a lot when I did my first TB job. Your own site has obviously helped a lot of people as well. Maybe my site will be of some use some day (for as long as I keep it up). Doesn't matter. I have a number of other home-made sites bookmarked for Hondas, too, and have referred to them a lot. I think all, while maybe not perfect, are overall very helpful. (None of the manuals are perfect, either.) |
#28
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to change a Honda Accord 1988 model timing belt
SoCalMike wrote:
> Matt Ion wrote: > >> TeGGeR® wrote: >> >>> You find mistakes? TELL ME. I NEED submissions. I only have one car >>> myself. Any other experiences I have come from working on others' >>> cars, or from submissions I receive from others. I have NO ego and a >>> very thick skin. I've been on Usenet for quite a few years and am >>> very used to criticism and MORE than eager to fix mistakes. >> >> >> Have you ever thought of setting the site up using a "Wiki" back-end? >> Might make ongoing maintenance easier, and add better support for >> searching and indexing and such. > > > what would a wiki backend do? http://wiki.org/wiki.cgi?WhatIsWiki "Wiki is a piece of server software that allows users to freely create and edit Web page content using any Web browser. Wiki supports hyperlinks and has a simple text syntax for creating new pages and crosslinks between internal pages on the fly. "Wiki is unusual among group communication mechanisms in that it allows the organization of contributions to be edited in addition to the content itself. "Like many simple concepts, "open editing" has some profound and subtle effects on Wiki usage. Allowing everyday users to create and edit any page in a Web site is exciting in that it encourages democratic use of the Web and promotes content composition by nontechnical users." --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0543-2, 10/27/2005 Tested on: 10/28/2005 10:38:52 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com |
#29
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to change a Honda Accord 1988 model timing belt
Elle wrote:
> I suppose one could do a test: After removing and torquing the bolt to spec, > magic marker a line down a diameter of the bolt and pulley. Operate the > engine for a few months. Check whether the line breaks up. or use nail polish, cuz youre a GIRRRRRRL! j/k... wanted to toss some neanderthal sexism in there, that's totally unwarranted. > > Everyone has their opinions. Some are quickly refuted. Other issues remain > controversial. I don't have a need to rehash the controversy. I think the > bigger question is: Do sites like yours, mine, and the Blanchas site help > people? i like just about every site ive run across. ive read yours and liked it, teggers is obviously really good... and with the new TSBs, even more betterer! > > I used the Blanchas site a lot when I did my first TB job. Your own site > has obviously helped a lot of people as well. Maybe my site will be of some > use some day (for as long as I keep it up). Doesn't matter. I have a number > of other home-made sites bookmarked for Hondas, too, and have referred to > them a lot. I think all, while maybe not perfect, are overall very helpful. > > (None of the manuals are perfect, either.) "helm- there is no substitute" |
#30
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to change a Honda Accord 1988 model timing belt
TeGGeR® wrote:
> Don't know what you mean by "'Wiki' back-end". Could you explain briefly? something about putting it up on wikipedia, somehow. or at least a copy of it, so people can add to it. i dont know how that works, but wiki can be a pretty interesting online encyclopedia, if you take it with a grain of salt. > > > I'd dig it up myself, but I'm a bit tired just now. downloading all that proprietary honda technical knowledge must have been a strain i really hope you dont get hassled for it. been reading through some of em, and its interesting stuff. i might do the "windshield trim fix" myself. |
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