Yaris, Scion xD, Honda Fit - no water temp gauge

"Elmo P. Shagnasty"...
> In article
> wrote:
>
>> Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water
>> temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ?
>
> Sure.
>
> But if it really bothers you, it's easy to get devices that plug into
> the OBD-II port and give you more information about your car than you
> ever want to know. For example:
>
> http://www.scangauge.com/
>
I agree with Elmo on this.
Tomes

Mike wrote:
>
> "Mike Walsh" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > An idiot light might not come on soon enough to prevent engine damage. On
> > some vehicles if you loose coolant pressure because of a leak the boiling
> > temperature will be too low to cause the idiot light to come on.
>
> I don't believe that is true. The coolant does not have to boil for the
> light to come on. The temp sensor only senses the temperature of the water, it
> has no way to determine if it is boiling or not. What may happen with a sudden
> leak is the coolant level will drop low enough that the temp sensor is no
> longer immersed in coolant. Being the sensor is no longer in contact with the
> coolant it will not turn the light on until it is too late.

If there is no pressure e.g. because of a loose cap the coolant can slowly boil away without the idiot light coming on. The same is true if you use only water with no antifreeze. The boiling point of water at sea level pressure is 212 degF. With 50% antifreeze and a high pressure radiator cap the boiling point will be about 270 degF. An idiot light might not come on until 240 degF.
You are correct about the light not coming on if the coolant is low. I have seen engines that became so hot that the the head gasket blows and the driver swears that the idiot light never came on.

--
Mike Walsh

wrote:
> I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80
> miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small
> vehicle with great gas mileage. Yaris hatchback, Scion xD, or Honda
> Fit would work for me. Problem is, none of them has a water temp
> gauge, just an "idiot light."
>
> Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water
> temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ?
>
> Btw, do these "idiot lights" come on early enough to prevent major
> engine damage, or only after the engine has overheated to the point
> where the head gasket is blown?

depends if you stop when it first comes on or not.

truth is, water gauges are an historic anachronism. if you look at the
typical car's temp gauge, they don't have a linear response, it's a step
function. that means that when it's in the "normal" zone, there can be
considerable temperature variation and you'll never see any difference
in indicator position.

given that it's not really any interest when the coolant is cold, and
there is no visible variability under normal operating conditions, that
only leaves the "too hot" zone to be of any real interest - and there's
no reason it can't be served by an indicator light. in fact, it may be
a good deal more useful than a honda where if you don't happen to look
down at the gauge to catch a problem in time, you can easily cook an
engine. most people notice right away when a light comes on.



>
> Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would
> be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/
> ownership cost may not even offset the possible repair costs resulting
> from a Yaris/Fit/xD engine overheating (which, if happens, would be
> several years down the road.)
>
> TIA,
> Bubba

Ashton Crusher wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Apr 2008 10:56:27 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
>
>
>>I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80
>>miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small
>>vehicle with great gas mileage. Yaris hatchback, Scion xD, or Honda
>>Fit would work for me. Problem is, none of them has a water temp
>>gauge, just an "idiot light."
>>
>>Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water
>>temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ?
>>
>>Btw, do these "idiot lights" come on early enough to prevent major
>>engine damage, or only after the engine has overheated to the point
>>where the head gasket is blown?
>>
>>Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would
>>be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/
>>ownership cost may not even offset the possible repair costs resulting
>
>>from a Yaris/Fit/xD engine overheating (which, if happens, would be
>
>>several years down the road.)
>>
>>TIA,
>>Bubba
>
>
>
> Yes, I would. I've had many vehicles with real gauges and a few of
> them overheated and I never noticed the gauge go up because it
> happened so fast (blown hose). I might have noticed an idiot light.
> I'd like to have both in an ideal setup. It's nice to know what's
> happening with water temp on a long uphill, esp if you are towing
> something. My 99 Mustang GT has a temp, oil and volt gauge but all
> are just idiot gauges. At least on the mustang you can put the
> Dashboard odometer into "diagnostic mode" and it will give a true
> digital readout of water temp. I think most idiot lights for water
> temp are set to go on at about 235 degrees. If everything is good in
> the cooling system it should not boil till it hits 260 degrees.

I agree, I think the ideal setup would be gauges with an idiot light
right inside the gauge. Unfortunately if you want something like that
you have to do it yourself.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel > wrote in
:

> Ashton Crusher wrote:
>> On Fri, 4 Apr 2008 10:56:27 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80
>>>miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small
>>>vehicle with great gas mileage. Yaris hatchback, Scion xD, or Honda
>>>Fit would work for me. Problem is, none of them has a water temp
>>>gauge, just an "idiot light."
>>>
>>>Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water
>>>temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ?
>>>
>>>Btw, do these "idiot lights" come on early enough to prevent major
>>>engine damage, or only after the engine has overheated to the point
>>>where the head gasket is blown?
>>>
>>>Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would
>>>be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/
>>>ownership cost may not even offset the possible repair costs resulting
>>
>>>from a Yaris/Fit/xD engine overheating (which, if happens, would be
>>
>>>several years down the road.)
>>>
>>>TIA,
>>>Bubba
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, I would. I've had many vehicles with real gauges and a few of
>> them overheated and I never noticed the gauge go up because it
>> happened so fast (blown hose). I might have noticed an idiot light.
>> I'd like to have both in an ideal setup. It's nice to know what's
>> happening with water temp on a long uphill, esp if you are towing
>> something. My 99 Mustang GT has a temp, oil and volt gauge but all
>> are just idiot gauges. At least on the mustang you can put the
>> Dashboard odometer into "diagnostic mode" and it will give a true
>> digital readout of water temp. I think most idiot lights for water
>> temp are set to go on at about 235 degrees. If everything is good in
>> the cooling system it should not boil till it hits 260 degrees.
>
> I agree, I think the ideal setup would be gauges with an idiot light
> right inside the gauge. Unfortunately if you want something like that
> you have to do it yourself.
>
> nate
>

Many gas gauges do that;when you get down too far,the warning light comes
on.

With today's modern LCD dashes,such a thing ought to be easy to
implement.Have a bright LED behind the hi segments that would light when
those segments are activated.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

On Apr 6, 10:27*pm, Jim Yanik > wrote:
> Nate Nagel > wrote :
>
>
>
>
>
> > Ashton Crusher wrote:
> >> On Fri, 4 Apr 2008 10:56:27 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
>
> >>>I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80
> >>>miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small
> >>>vehicle with great gas mileage. Yaris hatchback, Scion xD, or Honda
> >>>Fit would work for me. Problem is, none of them has a water temp
> >>>gauge, just an "idiot light."
>
> >>>Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water
> >>>temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ?
>
> >>>Btw, do these "idiot lights" come on early enough to prevent major
> >>>engine damage, or only after the engine has overheated to the point
> >>>where the head gasket is blown?
>
> >>>Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would
> >>>be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/
> >>>ownership cost may not even offset the possible repair costs resulting
>
> >>>from a Yaris/Fit/xD engine overheating (which, if happens, would be
>
> >>>several years down the road.)
>
> >>>TIA,
> >>>Bubba
>
> >> Yes, I would. *I've had many vehicles with real gauges and a few of
> >> them overheated and I never noticed the gauge go up because it
> >> happened so fast (blown hose). *I might have noticed an idiot light.
> >> I'd like to have both in an ideal setup. *It's nice to know what's
> >> happening with water temp on a long uphill, esp if you are towing
> >> something. *My 99 Mustang GT has a temp, oil and volt gauge but all
> >> are just idiot gauges. *At least on the mustang you can put the
> >> Dashboard odometer into "diagnostic mode" and it will give a true
> >> digital readout of water temp. *I think most idiot lights for water
> >> temp are set to go on at about 235 degrees. *If everything is good in
> >> the cooling system it should not boil till it hits 260 degrees.
>
> > I agree, I think the ideal setup would be gauges with an idiot light
> > right inside the gauge. *Unfortunately if you want something like that
> > you have to do it yourself.
>
> > nate
>
> Many gas gauges do that;when you get down too far,the warning light comes
> on.
>
> With today's modern LCD dashes,such a thing ought to be easy to
> implement.Have a bright LED behind the hi segments that would light when
> those segments are activated.

Now that I think about it I think my Porsche works like that, but I've
never seen the warning lights even bulb check. My fluke says
everything is working fine, so I don't know what gives.

nate

"N8N" > wrote in message
...
On Apr 6, 10:27 pm, Jim Yanik > wrote:
> Nate Nagel > wrote
> :

> > Ashton Crusher wrote:
> >> On Fri, 4 Apr 2008 10:56:27 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
>
> >>>I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80
> >>>miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small
> >>>vehicle with great gas mileage. Yaris hatchback, Scion xD, or Honda
> >>>Fit would work for me. Problem is, none of them has a water temp
> >>>gauge, just an "idiot light."
>
> >>>Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water
> >>>temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ?

Even with a proper temperature gauge, you need to consider whether the gauge
is in a visible place on the dashboard. First prize for "Most Stupid
Position for Temperature Gauge" has to go to the Renault 14 (probably early
1980s vintage) which placed the gauge low-down on the central console,
behind the gear lever. Not a place that you will frequently check it as you
look at the everyday gauges like speedometer and fuel, and warning lights
such as ignition, oil pressure and handbrake.

Many years ago my sister was driving my mother's Renault 14 shortly after
she learned to drive and wrote off the engine because a radiator hose burst
and the only warning that the engine was overheating was this insignificant
gauge on an obscure part of the dashboard.

On Apr 7, 11:34*am, "Mortimer" > wrote:
> "N8N" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Apr 6, 10:27 pm, Jim Yanik > wrote:
>
> > Nate Nagel > wrote
> > :
> > > Ashton Crusher wrote:
> > >> On Fri, 4 Apr 2008 10:56:27 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
>
> > >>>I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80
> > >>>miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small
> > >>>vehicle with great gas mileage. Yaris hatchback, Scion xD, or Honda
> > >>>Fit would work for me. Problem is, none of them has a water temp
> > >>>gauge, just an "idiot light."
>
> > >>>Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water
> > >>>temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ?
>
> Even with a proper temperature gauge, you need to consider whether the gauge
> is in a visible place on the dashboard. First prize for "Most Stupid
> Position for Temperature Gauge" has to go to the Renault 14 (probably early
> 1980s vintage) which placed the gauge low-down on the central console,
> behind the gear lever. Not a place that you will frequently check it as you
> look at the everyday gauges like speedometer and fuel, and warning lights
> such as ignition, oil pressure and handbrake.
>
> Many years ago my sister was driving my mother's Renault 14 shortly after
> she learned to drive and wrote off the engine because a radiator hose burst
> and the only warning that the engine was overheating was this insignificant
> gauge on an obscure part of the dashboard.

Under the hood, drill the dasboard, over the dashboard, place it on
the left pillar. That's too time consuming.

Just get the "Scan Gauge" and plug it into the obdII diagnostics port.
Besides it being a trip computer, one of the gauges is a water
temperature digital readout.
D.

wrote:
> I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80
> miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small
> vehicle with great gas mileage. Yaris hatchback, Scion xD, or Honda
> Fit would work for me. Problem is, none of them has a water temp
> gauge, just an "idiot light."

Just another sign of the "drivers are stupid, they don't need to know
anything" mentality of modern cars. Well, not JUST modern cars- General
Motors used nothing but idiot lights on most of its cars through the 60s
and 70s, but GM was the exception. Then in the 80s, Ford started using
"gauges" that were controlled by pressure switches for oil pressure- so
that they either read "normal" or "zero". Yeah, real helpful, but it
stopped people complaining about "the oil pressure changes when I speed up!"

From a driver information standpoint, the BEST setup is a gauge AND a
"check gauges" light that turns on (and sometimes rings a chime) when a
gauge is out of range. Its easy to overlook a gauge that's slowly
creeping out of range.

> wrote in message
...
> I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80
> miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small
> vehicle with great gas mileage. Yaris hatchback, Scion xD, or Honda
> Fit would work for me. Problem is, none of them has a water temp
> gauge, just an "idiot light."
>
> Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water
> temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ?
>
> Btw, do these "idiot lights" come on early enough to prevent major
> engine damage, or only after the engine has overheated to the point
> where the head gasket is blown?
>
> Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would
> be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/
> ownership cost may not even offset the possible repair costs resulting
> from a Yaris/Fit/xD engine overheating (which, if happens, would be
> several years down the road.)

Don't be so sure that the temeprature gauge is any better than the idiot
light. Many US and Japanese manufacturers now install temperature gauges
that are controlled by the engine computer (PCM) instead of directly by a
temperature transducer. They move upwards sort of like a "real" temperature
gauge as the car warms up, but it is an act controlled by the PCM. The
guage moves only in response to the commands from the PCM. Unless the car
overheats, the gauge is commanded to the "normal" position. Some have an
intermediate position between "normal" and "hot," some don't. Either way, it
is only a little better than the "idiot" light you don't like. I don't know
if the cars you mentioned have this sort of guage. I know my Ford Fusion and
Nissan Frontier do. I think my SO's RAV4 does as well, but I have not had a
chance to review the wiring diagrams to be sure. I suspect if you want
"real" gauges you will need to install them yourself, or buy a German car.

Ed


>
> TIA,
> Bubba