Alignment Expert Needed: Axle offset?

Vehicle 2000 Accord 4dr. V6 Automatic 81,000 miles, bought new. New Tires
and alignment just done. However, the car's rear wheels do not track the
front wheels; slightly offset to the right looking at the car from the
rear. Slight oversteer in a curve to the right. Tire shop says the axle
offset is 0 according to their alignment equipment. So, they say nothing is
wrong. The car's original tires lasted 60,000 mi. (Michlens). I replaced
them with Traction T/A's and they were horrible; poor wear, noisy (I missed
rotating untill about 12,000miles and by then they were ruined). I believe
part of the problem was this axle offset issue. How it came about is a
mystery. Prior to replacing these tires, I tried to get the alignment
issues fixed at a Honda dealer, but they seemed more intersted in selling
new tires and cabin filters. So, they were little help. How do I get this
axle offset checked and corrected ?

TomC wrote:
> Vehicle 2000 Accord 4dr. V6 Automatic 81,000 miles, bought new. New Tires
> and alignment just done. However, the car's rear wheels do not track the
> front wheels; slightly offset to the right looking at the car from the
> rear. Slight oversteer in a curve to the right. Tire shop says the axle
> offset is 0 according to their alignment equipment. So, they say nothing is
> wrong. The car's original tires lasted 60,000 mi. (Michlens). I replaced
> them with Traction T/A's and they were horrible; poor wear, noisy (I missed
> rotating untill about 12,000miles and by then they were ruined). I believe
> part of the problem was this axle offset issue. How it came about is a
> mystery. Prior to replacing these tires, I tried to get the alignment
> issues fixed at a Honda dealer, but they seemed more intersted in selling
> new tires and cabin filters. So, they were little help. How do I get this
> axle offset checked and corrected ?
>
take it to a different shop that knows what they're doing- my experience
is that you may need to try several different places. all 4 wheels on
the honda are adjustable, so the thrust angle can be dialed in exactly.
or they should tell you if the frame is bent.

jim beam > wrote in article
>.. .
> TomC wrote:
> > Vehicle 2000 Accord 4dr. V6 Automatic 81,000 miles, bought new. New
Tires
> > and alignment just done. However, the car's rear wheels do not track
the
> > front wheels; slightly offset to the right looking at the car from the
> > rear. Slight oversteer in a curve to the right. Tire shop says the axle
> > offset is 0 according to their alignment equipment. So, they say
nothing is
> > wrong. The car's original tires lasted 60,000 mi. (Michlens). I
replaced
> > them with Traction T/A's and they were horrible; poor wear, noisy (I
missed
> > rotating untill about 12,000miles and by then they were ruined). I
believe
> > part of the problem was this axle offset issue. How it came about is a
> > mystery. Prior to replacing these tires, I tried to get the alignment
> > issues fixed at a Honda dealer, but they seemed more intersted in
selling
> > new tires and cabin filters. So, they were little help. How do I get
this
> > axle offset checked and corrected ?
> >
> take it to a different shop that knows what they're doing- my experience
> is that you may need to try several different places. all 4 wheels on
> the honda are adjustable, so the thrust angle can be dialed in exactly.
> or they should tell you if the frame is bent.
>
That was my thinking; but, my problem is finding a shop that knows what
they're doing. At first, I thought taking it to a dealer would have been
sufficient; but, I was quickly turned off by their indifference. So.....
Thanks for the reply.
TomC

TomC wrote:
> jim beam > wrote in article
> >.. .
>> TomC wrote:
>>> Vehicle 2000 Accord 4dr. V6 Automatic 81,000 miles, bought new. New
> Tires
>>> and alignment just done. However, the car's rear wheels do not track
> the
>>> front wheels; slightly offset to the right looking at the car from the
>>> rear. Slight oversteer in a curve to the right. Tire shop says the axle
>>> offset is 0 according to their alignment equipment. So, they say
> nothing is
>>> wrong. The car's original tires lasted 60,000 mi. (Michlens). I
> replaced
>>> them with Traction T/A's and they were horrible; poor wear, noisy (I
> missed
>>> rotating untill about 12,000miles and by then they were ruined). I
> believe
>>> part of the problem was this axle offset issue. How it came about is a
>>> mystery. Prior to replacing these tires, I tried to get the alignment
>>> issues fixed at a Honda dealer, but they seemed more intersted in
> selling
>>> new tires and cabin filters. So, they were little help. How do I get
> this
>>> axle offset checked and corrected ?
>>>
>> take it to a different shop that knows what they're doing- my experience
>> is that you may need to try several different places. all 4 wheels on
>> the honda are adjustable, so the thrust angle can be dialed in exactly.
>> or they should tell you if the frame is bent.
>>
> That was my thinking; but, my problem is finding a shop that knows what
> they're doing. At first, I thought taking it to a dealer would have been
> sufficient; but, I was quickly turned off by their indifference. So.....
> Thanks for the reply.
> TomC

i was looking at new cars one time, and one brand new vehicle was
pulling hard to the right - damaged in transit or factory set wrong.
the sales dude was so indifferent, he tried to tell me it was a safety
feature! amazing. needless to say, i took my business elsewhere.

here in the bay area, i've tried 4 different shops, and each one sucks.
but the last place had a guarantee, so i kept taking it back pointing
out the tire wear [i used paint strips] and the guarantee they gave me.
i got it escalated to the manager, and finally got the senior tech on
it. the manager figured out i'd just keep on coming back if they didn't
do something and were already losing money. objectionable process, but
it worked.

"TomC" > wrote in
st.net.:

> Vehicle 2000 Accord 4dr. V6 Automatic 81,000 miles, bought new. New
> Tires and alignment just done. However, the car's rear wheels do not
> track the front wheels; slightly offset to the right looking at the
> car from the rear. Slight oversteer in a curve to the right. Tire shop
> says the axle offset is 0 according to their alignment equipment. So,
> they say nothing is wrong. The car's original tires lasted 60,000 mi.
> (Michlens). I replaced them with Traction T/A's and they were
> horrible; poor wear, noisy (I missed rotating untill about 12,000miles
> and by then they were ruined). I believe part of the problem was this
> axle offset issue. How it came about is a mystery. Prior to replacing
> these tires, I tried to get the alignment issues fixed at a Honda
> dealer, but they seemed more intersted in selling new tires and cabin
> filters. So, they were little help. How do I get this axle offset
> checked and corrected ?
>



The "dog-tracking" you describe is normal.

So long as the alignment shop made sure the front wheels were properly
aligned to the centerline bisecting the rear wheels, it is acceptable to
have some dog-tracking, and perfectly acceptable for the rear axle
centerline to diverge from the body's centerline.

Both sides of the rear end of your car are adjustable for toe. Ideally
you'd adjust the toe on both sides so the rear axle centerline coincides
with the car's body's centerline. But it's common practice for alignment
techs to only adjust one side if the rear toe isn't far out, resulting
isn some harmless dog-tracking.

Having said the above, it is NOT acceptable to have LOTS of dog-
tracking though. And it is NOT sufficient to simply point to the numbers
the machine gives you and say the car's been set up properly. Sometimes
a bit of fudge and squish is necessary to do the job right, and that's
where skill comes in rather than simple menu-following.

The tire wear you eperienced is not necessarily due to any centerline
issue. It can also be due to bad mounting, poor quality tires, worn
shocks and a host of other suspension problems. Most likely the tires
were badly mounted to begin with.

Your factory tires were mounted by expertly-trained people. Your
replacements were not.

I have found that most tires are mounted very badly. Tire shops have
badly trained personnel who have no clue how to get the tires to spin
true before balancing. They just slap them on the wheels (using the
wrong lube while they're at it) and load the wheel up with weights. The
tires may end up feeling smooth to you, but with each revolution they
are scrubbing themselves unevenly against the pavement, eventually
wrecking the tread.

Does the car track straight, hands off the wheel? Does it follow the
road crown equally both sides of the crown? Then you're likely fine as
far as alignment goes. If the tires are that bad, you need to replace
them, and have the job done by a competent shop. Those are hard to find.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

jim beam > wrote in article
>...
> TomC wrote:
> > jim beam > wrote in article
> > >.. .
> >> TomC wrote:
> >>> Vehicle 2000 Accord 4dr. V6 Automatic 81,000 miles, bought new. New
> > Tires
> >>> and alignment just done. However, the car's rear wheels do not track
> > the
> >>> front wheels; slightly offset to the right looking at the car from
the
> >>> rear. Slight oversteer in a curve to the right. Tire shop says the
axle
> >>> offset is 0 according to their alignment equipment. So, they say
> > nothing is
> >>> wrong. The car's original tires lasted 60,000 mi. (Michlens). I
> > replaced
> >>> them with Traction T/A's and they were horrible; poor wear, noisy (I
> > missed
> >>> rotating untill about 12,000miles and by then they were ruined). I
> > believe
> >>> part of the problem was this axle offset issue. How it came about is
a
> >>> mystery. Prior to replacing these tires, I tried to get the alignment
> >>> issues fixed at a Honda dealer, but they seemed more intersted in
> > selling
> >>> new tires and cabin filters. So, they were little help. How do I get
> > this
> >>> axle offset checked and corrected ?
> >>>
> >> take it to a different shop that knows what they're doing- my
experience
> >> is that you may need to try several different places. all 4 wheels on

> >> the honda are adjustable, so the thrust angle can be dialed in
exactly.
> >> or they should tell you if the frame is bent.
> >>
> > That was my thinking; but, my problem is finding a shop that knows what
> > they're doing. At first, I thought taking it to a dealer would have
been
> > sufficient; but, I was quickly turned off by their indifference.
So.....
> > Thanks for the reply.
> > TomC
>
> i was looking at new cars one time, and one brand new vehicle was
> pulling hard to the right - damaged in transit or factory set wrong.
> the sales dude was so indifferent, he tried to tell me it was a safety
> feature! amazing. needless to say, i took my business elsewhere.
>
> here in the bay area, i've tried 4 different shops, and each one sucks.
> but the last place had a guarantee, so i kept taking it back pointing
> out the tire wear [i used paint strips] and the guarantee they gave me.
> i got it escalated to the manager, and finally got the senior tech on
> it. the manager figured out i'd just keep on coming back if they didn't
> do something and were already losing money. objectionable process, but
> it worked.
>
I know where your coming from....In the last two years I've gone thru $1200
worth of tires and a couple hundred for alignments..I'm thinking it's time
to rid myself of this beast. Nice car but few can fix 'em.
TomC

Tegger > wrote in article
>...
> "TomC" > wrote in
> st.net.:
>
> > Vehicle 2000 Accord 4dr. V6 Automatic 81,000 miles, bought new. New
> > Tires and alignment just done. However, the car's rear wheels do not
> > track the front wheels; slightly offset to the right looking at the
> > car from the rear. Slight oversteer in a curve to the right. Tire shop
> > says the axle offset is 0 according to their alignment equipment. So,
> > they say nothing is wrong. The car's original tires lasted 60,000 mi.
> > (Michlens). I replaced them with Traction T/A's and they were
> > horrible; poor wear, noisy (I missed rotating untill about 12,000miles
> > and by then they were ruined). I believe part of the problem was this
> > axle offset issue. How it came about is a mystery. Prior to replacing
> > these tires, I tried to get the alignment issues fixed at a Honda
> > dealer, but they seemed more intersted in selling new tires and cabin
> > filters. So, they were little help. How do I get this axle offset
> > checked and corrected ?
> >
>
>
>
> The "dog-tracking" you describe is normal.
>
> So long as the alignment shop made sure the front wheels were properly
> aligned to the centerline bisecting the rear wheels, it is acceptable to
> have some dog-tracking, and perfectly acceptable for the rear axle
> centerline to diverge from the body's centerline.
>
> Both sides of the rear end of your car are adjustable for toe. Ideally
> you'd adjust the toe on both sides so the rear axle centerline coincides
> with the car's body's centerline. But it's common practice for alignment
> techs to only adjust one side if the rear toe isn't far out, resulting
> isn some harmless dog-tracking.
>
> Having said the above, it is NOT acceptable to have LOTS of dog-
> tracking though. And it is NOT sufficient to simply point to the numbers
> the machine gives you and say the car's been set up properly. Sometimes
> a bit of fudge and squish is necessary to do the job right, and that's
> where skill comes in rather than simple menu-following.
>
> The tire wear you eperienced is not necessarily due to any centerline
> issue. It can also be due to bad mounting, poor quality tires, worn
> shocks and a host of other suspension problems. Most likely the tires
> were badly mounted to begin with.
>
> Your factory tires were mounted by expertly-trained people. Your
> replacements were not.
>
> I have found that most tires are mounted very badly. Tire shops have
> badly trained personnel who have no clue how to get the tires to spin
> true before balancing. They just slap them on the wheels (using the
> wrong lube while they're at it) and load the wheel up with weights. The
> tires may end up feeling smooth to you, but with each revolution they
> are scrubbing themselves unevenly against the pavement, eventually
> wrecking the tread.
>
> Does the car track straight, hands off the wheel? Does it follow the
> road crown equally both sides of the crown? Then you're likely fine as
> far as alignment goes. If the tires are that bad, you need to replace
> them, and have the job done by a competent shop. Those are hard to find.
>
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>
If you think any dogtracking is acceptable, then you've said more than I
need to know from you!
TomC

Tegger wrote:
> "TomC" > wrote in
> st.net.:
>
>> Vehicle 2000 Accord 4dr. V6 Automatic 81,000 miles, bought new. New
>> Tires and alignment just done. However, the car's rear wheels do not
>> track the front wheels; slightly offset to the right looking at the
>> car from the rear. Slight oversteer in a curve to the right. Tire shop
>> says the axle offset is 0 according to their alignment equipment. So,
>> they say nothing is wrong. The car's original tires lasted 60,000 mi.
>> (Michlens). I replaced them with Traction T/A's and they were
>> horrible; poor wear, noisy (I missed rotating untill about 12,000miles
>> and by then they were ruined). I believe part of the problem was this
>> axle offset issue. How it came about is a mystery. Prior to replacing
>> these tires, I tried to get the alignment issues fixed at a Honda
>> dealer, but they seemed more intersted in selling new tires and cabin
>> filters. So, they were little help. How do I get this axle offset
>> checked and corrected ?
>>
>
>
>
> The "dog-tracking" you describe is normal.
>
> So long as the alignment shop made sure the front wheels were properly
> aligned to the centerline bisecting the rear wheels, it is acceptable to
> have some dog-tracking, and perfectly acceptable for the rear axle
> centerline to diverge from the body's centerline.
>
> Both sides of the rear end of your car are adjustable for toe. Ideally
> you'd adjust the toe on both sides so the rear axle centerline coincides
> with the car's body's centerline. But it's common practice for alignment
> techs to only adjust one side if the rear toe isn't far out, resulting
> isn some harmless dog-tracking.

completely disagree!!!

yes, it's common for it to happen because a lot of these guys don't know
what's up, but it's not correct and /completely unacceptable/!!!

here's the reason why: the very last time i had my civic done, i was
informed that they'd adjusted it as good as they could make it, but
since the rear wasn't adjustable, there was nothing more they could do.
the car has some crash damage evident, so initially, they weren't even
prepared to look any further. however, i explained that the rear /was/
adjustable, and showed them where and how it was done. now, here's the
kicker - the data book they were using /did/ say the rear wasn't
adjustable!!! just like if you go to a parts store and look in the bulb
book, the bulb number listed for the civic rear license plate is
incorrect. basically, once a mistake gets into the data system, it gets
"preserved" and passed from generation to generation. the only sure way
to get this stuff fixed is to go armed with the factory honda workshop
manual with the relevant page bookmarked.

honda handling is /particularly/ sensitive to rear toe, so it's
essential this be done right. again, front and rear toe /is/
adjustable, therefore thrust is adjustable and should be set straight as
an arrow. only a bent frame prevents this being achieved, and then,
only when the frame is bent beyond adjustment limits.

>
> Having said the above, it is NOT acceptable to have LOTS of dog-
> tracking though. And it is NOT sufficient to simply point to the numbers
> the machine gives you and say the car's been set up properly. Sometimes
> a bit of fudge and squish is necessary to do the job right, and that's
> where skill comes in rather than simple menu-following.
>
> The tire wear you eperienced is not necessarily due to any centerline
> issue. It can also be due to bad mounting, poor quality tires, worn
> shocks and a host of other suspension problems. Most likely the tires
> were badly mounted to begin with.
>
> Your factory tires were mounted by expertly-trained people. Your
> replacements were not.
>
> I have found that most tires are mounted very badly. Tire shops have
> badly trained personnel who have no clue how to get the tires to spin
> true before balancing. They just slap them on the wheels (using the
> wrong lube while they're at it) and load the wheel up with weights. The
> tires may end up feeling smooth to you, but with each revolution they
> are scrubbing themselves unevenly against the pavement, eventually
> wrecking the tread.
>
> Does the car track straight, hands off the wheel? Does it follow the
> road crown equally both sides of the crown? Then you're likely fine as
> far as alignment goes. If the tires are that bad, you need to replace
> them, and have the job done by a competent shop. Those are hard to find.
>
>

TomC wrote:
> Tegger > wrote in article
> >...
>> "TomC" > wrote in
>> st.net.:
>>
>>> Vehicle 2000 Accord 4dr. V6 Automatic 81,000 miles, bought new. New
>>> Tires and alignment just done. However, the car's rear wheels do not
>>> track the front wheels; slightly offset to the right looking at the
>>> car from the rear. Slight oversteer in a curve to the right. Tire shop
>>> says the axle offset is 0 according to their alignment equipment. So,
>>> they say nothing is wrong. The car's original tires lasted 60,000 mi.
>>> (Michlens). I replaced them with Traction T/A's and they were
>>> horrible; poor wear, noisy (I missed rotating untill about 12,000miles
>>> and by then they were ruined). I believe part of the problem was this
>>> axle offset issue. How it came about is a mystery. Prior to replacing
>>> these tires, I tried to get the alignment issues fixed at a Honda
>>> dealer, but they seemed more intersted in selling new tires and cabin
>>> filters. So, they were little help. How do I get this axle offset
>>> checked and corrected ?
>>>
>>
>>
>> The "dog-tracking" you describe is normal.
>>
>> So long as the alignment shop made sure the front wheels were properly
>> aligned to the centerline bisecting the rear wheels, it is acceptable to
>> have some dog-tracking, and perfectly acceptable for the rear axle
>> centerline to diverge from the body's centerline.
>>
>> Both sides of the rear end of your car are adjustable for toe. Ideally
>> you'd adjust the toe on both sides so the rear axle centerline coincides
>> with the car's body's centerline. But it's common practice for alignment
>> techs to only adjust one side if the rear toe isn't far out, resulting
>> isn some harmless dog-tracking.
>>
>> Having said the above, it is NOT acceptable to have LOTS of dog-
>> tracking though. And it is NOT sufficient to simply point to the numbers
>> the machine gives you and say the car's been set up properly. Sometimes
>> a bit of fudge and squish is necessary to do the job right, and that's
>> where skill comes in rather than simple menu-following.
>>
>> The tire wear you eperienced is not necessarily due to any centerline
>> issue. It can also be due to bad mounting, poor quality tires, worn
>> shocks and a host of other suspension problems. Most likely the tires
>> were badly mounted to begin with.
>>
>> Your factory tires were mounted by expertly-trained people. Your
>> replacements were not.
>>
>> I have found that most tires are mounted very badly. Tire shops have
>> badly trained personnel who have no clue how to get the tires to spin
>> true before balancing. They just slap them on the wheels (using the
>> wrong lube while they're at it) and load the wheel up with weights. The
>> tires may end up feeling smooth to you, but with each revolution they
>> are scrubbing themselves unevenly against the pavement, eventually
>> wrecking the tread.
>>
>> Does the car track straight, hands off the wheel? Does it follow the
>> road crown equally both sides of the crown? Then you're likely fine as
>> far as alignment goes. If the tires are that bad, you need to replace
>> them, and have the job done by a competent shop. Those are hard to find.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Tegger
>>
>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>
> If you think any dogtracking is acceptable, then you've said more than I
> need to know from you!
> TomC

chill. tegger's a good guy and hosts the unofficial honda, a fantastic
resource. check them out at tegger.com. he can be a little too
trusting when it comes to suspension advice from his mechanic, but we
can't all be experts in everything.

On Feb 13, 9:07 am, jim beam > wrote:
>
> honda handling is /particularly/ sensitive to rear toe, so it's
> essential this be done right. again, front and rear toe /is/
> adjustable, therefore thrust is adjustable and should be set straight as
> an arrow. only a bent frame prevents this being achieved, and then,
> only when the frame is bent beyond adjustment limits.
>

FWIW, my best alignment experience has been with a collision repair
shop that operates their own alignment system, complete with frame
straightening equipment. They claim few cars are really straight from
the factory but nearly all are easily put square.