Ford gets a clue

lab~rat >:-) wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 13:36:49 -0500, "Michael Johnson, PE"
> > puked:
>
>> Joe wrote:
>>> (Brent P) wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>> In article >, dwight
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Actually, a 2008 Pinto, built with all of the technological advances
>>>>> of the past 30+ years, might not be a bad little machine...
>>>>> Hatchback would be nice.
>>>> I would love to see modern, quality, rear wheel drive sub compacts. Be
>>>> they japanese or domestic. Just those early 70s small car 'themes'
>>>> with good guts.
>>> The closest things now are the S2000 and Miata. Unfortunately, both are
>>> considered "upscale" now.
>> I'm surprised one of the automakers hasn't capitalized on the drifting
>> crowd. They would buy a small RWD car in a second.
>
> Is there a drifting crowd? Maybe it's just not big down here...

There is an import car show on Spike that shows thousands of kids
attending the import events week after week. Many of them are into
drifting. IMO, the inherent performance advantages of RWD would go over
big with the import crowd.

Joe wrote:
> Michael Johnson > wrote in
> :
>
>> dwight wrote:
>>> "Michael Johnson" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Big Al wrote:
>>>>> "Michael Johnson" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> I have been blasting Ford for abandoning their long time model
>>>>>> names like the Cougar, Thunderbird and, most of all, the Taurus.
>>>>>> Now it appears that Alan Mulally (Ford's new CEO) is wondering the
>>>>>> same thing I have been. This guy might be showing some promise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070206/...taurus_revived
>>>>>> _5
>>>>> Ha-ha. Read this:
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yqdtx3
>>>> I am willing to bet they will sell far more Taurus' than 500s even
>>>> though they are the same car.
>>> I think you've got a pretty good handle on us American consumers.
>>> Ever considered a career in the fascinating, fast-paced,
>>> deadline-driven world of Marketing?
>> I don't have the stomach for it.
>
> I think we're inherently on one side or the other: tech or sales. Not
> many people can handle both effectively.

I could sell something if it were truly a great product but I couldn't
do the high pressure routine.

Michael Johnson > wrote in
:

> Joe wrote:
>> Michael Johnson > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> dwight wrote:
>>>> "Michael Johnson" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> Big Al wrote:
>>>>>> "Michael Johnson" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> I have been blasting Ford for abandoning their long time model
>>>>>>> names like the Cougar, Thunderbird and, most of all, the Taurus.
>>>>>>> Now it appears that Alan Mulally (Ford's new CEO) is wondering
the
>>>>>>> same thing I have been. This guy might be showing some promise.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070206/...taurus_revived
>>>>>>> _5
>>>>>> Ha-ha. Read this:
>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yqdtx3
>>>>> I am willing to bet they will sell far more Taurus' than 500s even
>>>>> though they are the same car.
>>>> I think you've got a pretty good handle on us American consumers.
>>>> Ever considered a career in the fascinating, fast-paced,
>>>> deadline-driven world of Marketing?
>>> I don't have the stomach for it.
>>
>> I think we're inherently on one side or the other: tech or sales.
Not
>> many people can handle both effectively.
>
> I could sell something if it were truly a great product but I couldn't
> do the high pressure routine.

Yeah, it's a lot easier if the product sells itself and you believe in
it. But I could never do the the whole song-'n'-dance thing to unload
crap on somebody. I'll gladly stay on the other side of that fence...

I WOULD buy a new Pinto if I could. I liked my Pinto a lot

Mort


On 6 Feb 2007 16:36:25 -0800, "Kruse" > wrote:

>On Feb 6, 3:45 pm, Michael Johnson > wrote:
>> I have been blasting Ford for abandoning their long time model names
>> like the Cougar, Thunderbird and, most of all, the Taurus.
>
>Great. I can't wait to buy a new Pinto.
>
>Actually, I've been blasting Ford for moving a lot of their assembly
>lines and factories to different countries. Is it because domestic
>labor is too high? Tell that to the foreign manufactures who now have
>factories in the states.

On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:24:13 GMT, Joe > puked:

>"lab~rat >:-)" > wrote in
>news >
>> On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 13:36:49 -0500, "Michael Johnson, PE"
>> > puked:
>>
>>>Joe wrote:
>>>> (Brent P) wrote in
>>>> :
>>>>
>>>>> In article >, dwight
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, a 2008 Pinto, built with all of the technological
>>>>>> advances of the past 30+ years, might not be a bad little
>>>>>> machine... Hatchback would be nice.
>>>>> I would love to see modern, quality, rear wheel drive sub compacts.
>>>>> Be they japanese or domestic. Just those early 70s small car
>>>>> 'themes' with good guts.
>>>>
>>>> The closest things now are the S2000 and Miata. Unfortunately, both
>>>> are considered "upscale" now.
>>>
>>>I'm surprised one of the automakers hasn't capitalized on the drifting
>>>crowd. They would buy a small RWD car in a second.
>>
>> Is there a drifting crowd? Maybe it's just not big down here...
>> --
>> lab~rat >:-)
>> Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>
>Not many places to drift, at least in Broward. Now take a trip down Old
>Cutler at 4am and that's another story...

That could be true, but I won't be there...
--
lab~rat >:-)
Do you want polite or do you want sincere?

"lab~rat >:-)" > wrote in
:

> On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:24:13 GMT, Joe > puked:
>
>>"lab~rat >:-)" > wrote in
>>news >>
>>> On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 13:36:49 -0500, "Michael Johnson, PE"
>>> > puked:
>>>
>>>>Joe wrote:
>>>>> (Brent P) wrote in
>>>>> :
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article >, dwight
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, a 2008 Pinto, built with all of the technological
>>>>>>> advances of the past 30+ years, might not be a bad little
>>>>>>> machine... Hatchback would be nice.
>>>>>> I would love to see modern, quality, rear wheel drive sub
compacts.
>>>>>> Be they japanese or domestic. Just those early 70s small car
>>>>>> 'themes' with good guts.
>>>>>
>>>>> The closest things now are the S2000 and Miata. Unfortunately,
both
>>>>> are considered "upscale" now.
>>>>
>>>>I'm surprised one of the automakers hasn't capitalized on the
drifting
>>>>crowd. They would buy a small RWD car in a second.
>>>
>>> Is there a drifting crowd? Maybe it's just not big down here...
>>> --
>>> lab~rat >:-)
>>> Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>>
>>Not many places to drift, at least in Broward. Now take a trip down
Old
>>Cutler at 4am and that's another story...
>
> That could be true, but I won't be there...
> --
> lab~rat >:-)
> Do you want polite or do you want sincere?

It's one of the few "twisties" you'll find down here...

On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:53:15 GMT, Joe > puked:

>"lab~rat >:-)" > wrote in
:
>
>> On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:24:13 GMT, Joe > puked:
>>
>>>"lab~rat >:-)" > wrote in
>>>news >>>
>>>> On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 13:36:49 -0500, "Michael Johnson, PE"
>>>> > puked:
>>>>
>>>>>Joe wrote:
>>>>>> (Brent P) wrote in
>>>>>> :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In article >, dwight
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually, a 2008 Pinto, built with all of the technological
>>>>>>>> advances of the past 30+ years, might not be a bad little
>>>>>>>> machine... Hatchback would be nice.
>>>>>>> I would love to see modern, quality, rear wheel drive sub
>compacts.
>>>>>>> Be they japanese or domestic. Just those early 70s small car
>>>>>>> 'themes' with good guts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The closest things now are the S2000 and Miata. Unfortunately,
>both
>>>>>> are considered "upscale" now.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm surprised one of the automakers hasn't capitalized on the
>drifting
>>>>>crowd. They would buy a small RWD car in a second.
>>>>
>>>> Is there a drifting crowd? Maybe it's just not big down here...
>>>> --
>>>> lab~rat >:-)
>>>> Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>>>
>>>Not many places to drift, at least in Broward. Now take a trip down
>Old
>>>Cutler at 4am and that's another story...
>>
>> That could be true, but I won't be there...
>> --
>> lab~rat >:-)
>> Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>
>It's one of the few "twisties" you'll find down here...

I live off of Shotgun Road in Davie, and it used to be fun back when
it was a cow pasture. Took it at 125 in the Camaro once...
--
lab~rat >:-)
Do you want polite or do you want sincere?

"lab~rat >:-)" > wrote in
:

> On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:53:15 GMT, Joe > puked:
>
>>"lab~rat >:-)" > wrote in
m:
>>
>>> On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:24:13 GMT, Joe > puked:
>>>
>>>>"lab~rat >:-)" > wrote in
>>>>news >>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 13:36:49 -0500, "Michael Johnson, PE"
>>>>> > puked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Joe wrote:
>>>>>>> (Brent P) wrote in
>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In article >,
dwight
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Actually, a 2008 Pinto, built with all of the technological
>>>>>>>>> advances of the past 30+ years, might not be a bad little
>>>>>>>>> machine... Hatchback would be nice.
>>>>>>>> I would love to see modern, quality, rear wheel drive sub
>>compacts.
>>>>>>>> Be they japanese or domestic. Just those early 70s small car
>>>>>>>> 'themes' with good guts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The closest things now are the S2000 and Miata. Unfortunately,
>>both
>>>>>>> are considered "upscale" now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm surprised one of the automakers hasn't capitalized on the
>>drifting
>>>>>>crowd. They would buy a small RWD car in a second.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a drifting crowd? Maybe it's just not big down here...
>>>>> --
>>>>> lab~rat >:-)
>>>>> Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>>>>
>>>>Not many places to drift, at least in Broward. Now take a trip down
>>Old
>>>>Cutler at 4am and that's another story...
>>>
>>> That could be true, but I won't be there...
>>> --
>>> lab~rat >:-)
>>> Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>>
>>It's one of the few "twisties" you'll find down here...
>
> I live off of Shotgun Road in Davie, and it used to be fun back when
> it was a cow pasture. Took it at 125 in the Camaro once...
> --
> lab~rat >:-)
> Do you want polite or do you want sincere?

125's a bit fast, at least nowadays. I'm up towards Tamarac near
Commercial, but I work down in Kendall. Currently, my favorite is
getting onto the Sawgrass going south right by the arena off 136th.
There's a freebie entrance off Pat Salerno Dr. (can't believe they named
a street after that bozo) that goes up around the ramp then straightens
out coming down. Pretty sweet accelerating up the ramp, hitting the
curve, then coming down at about 90 or so. Have to be careful though,
because it's right next to the toll booth.

On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 04:34:18 GMT, Joe > puked:

>"lab~rat >:-)" > wrote in
:
>
>> On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:53:15 GMT, Joe > puked:
>>
>>>"lab~rat >:-)" > wrote in
:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:24:13 GMT, Joe > puked:
>>>>
>>>>>"lab~rat >:-)" > wrote in
>>>>>news >>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 13:36:49 -0500, "Michael Johnson, PE"
>>>>>> > puked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Joe wrote:
>>>>>>>> (Brent P) wrote in
>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In article >,
>dwight
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Actually, a 2008 Pinto, built with all of the technological
>>>>>>>>>> advances of the past 30+ years, might not be a bad little
>>>>>>>>>> machine... Hatchback would be nice.
>>>>>>>>> I would love to see modern, quality, rear wheel drive sub
>>>compacts.
>>>>>>>>> Be they japanese or domestic. Just those early 70s small car
>>>>>>>>> 'themes' with good guts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The closest things now are the S2000 and Miata. Unfortunately,
>>>both
>>>>>>>> are considered "upscale" now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I'm surprised one of the automakers hasn't capitalized on the
>>>drifting
>>>>>>>crowd. They would buy a small RWD car in a second.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there a drifting crowd? Maybe it's just not big down here...
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> lab~rat >:-)
>>>>>> Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>>>>>
>>>>>Not many places to drift, at least in Broward. Now take a trip down
>>>Old
>>>>>Cutler at 4am and that's another story...
>>>>
>>>> That could be true, but I won't be there...
>>>> --
>>>> lab~rat >:-)
>>>> Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>>>
>>>It's one of the few "twisties" you'll find down here...
>>
>> I live off of Shotgun Road in Davie, and it used to be fun back when
>> it was a cow pasture. Took it at 125 in the Camaro once...
>> --
>> lab~rat >:-)
>> Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
>
>125's a bit fast, at least nowadays. I'm up towards Tamarac near
>Commercial, but I work down in Kendall. Currently, my favorite is
>getting onto the Sawgrass going south right by the arena off 136th.
>There's a freebie entrance off Pat Salerno Dr. (can't believe they named
>a street after that bozo) that goes up around the ramp then straightens
>out coming down. Pretty sweet accelerating up the ramp, hitting the
>curve, then coming down at about 90 or so. Have to be careful though,
>because it's right next to the toll booth.

LOL and the State Highway Patrol Office...
--
lab~rat >:-)
Do you want polite or do you want sincere?

Posts ignore numerous facts that 'professional spokesmen'
intentionally forget to mention.

For example, when Henry Ford ran the company, then cars were
designed by accountants. Costs were high and Ford made no profits.
When Don Petersen took over, then engineers were told to design the
best they could. "Yes we are designing to get through cost
controls". No. They were in charge - not MBA school graduates.
Accountants no longer were the designers. Ford engineers designed the
1964 Mustang. Next car designed by engineers was what? Henry Ford
was removed in 1981. Anything takes 4 to 10 years to design.
Therefore this car came out in 1987 - Ford Taurus. First car designed
by engineers in 22 years. The car that saved Ford Motor and was
profitable ... because it was not designed by cost controllers.

Every time the engineers replaced a defective product, they also
changed the name. Bronco was designed by accountants. Explorer was
the new name because it was designed by engineers. Tempo and Topaz by
accountants. Contour, Mondeo and Mystic were engineer replacements.
However Mustang and T-bird names remained because those original
models were designed by 'car guys'.

Unfortunately Ford has this idea that changing the name of a poor
design - the 500 - will increase sales? Bean counter thinking.

Basic to all cars are fundamental numbers - horsepower per liter.
Auto companies are losing market share have defective products - do
not have 70 Hp per liter engines as standard. Ford and GM both have
this problem created by business school 'cost control' mentalities..
Both companies must put two extra pistons in every car. Accounting is
again doing the designing - therefore increasing costs. Ford and GM
must put two extra pistons in every car just to do same horsepower as
everyone else. A Ford or GM V-8 is necessary to do what innovative
and therefore American patriotic companies do with a V-6.

Do the numbers yourself. Do all engines in that car do 70 Hp/
liter? That defined patriotic American. American patriots who
believe in free markets buy the best - and that means 70 Hp/liter for
fuel injection.

Extra pistons, fuel injectors, manifolds, ignition systems, more
block, more cam and crank lobes, more car around a bigger engine, more
suspensions and larger tires. All this means the anti-American car
costs more. And so GM and Ford have no profits. A 52 Hp/liter engine
also means other parts of the vehicle are also poorly designed - or
what happens when accounting does the design.

Therein lies the major indicator that both Ford and GM are now
making inferior products. Meanwhile innovative and therefore (by
definition) American patriotic auto companies now have numerous fuel
injected models that do 80 and higher horsepower per liter. IOW they
innovate as any patriotic American would. Ford and GM cost control -
stifle innovation - as any anti-American would.

Another myth is Ford and GM legacy costs. What do they forget to
mention? The day that employee retired, then pension funds and health
care funds were fully funded. The day that employee retires, then the
company has no further payments to that employee retirement. But Ford
and GM hope you don't think. They blame legacy costs on retirees
hoping you will not ask some embarrassing questions. Those legacy
costs exist only if MBA executives (who also did not have driver's
licenses) made yesteryears profits look larger by underfunding those
pension and health care funds. In GM's case, that underfunding was
about $7billion. Money instead used to claim profits that did not
exist. This is how an MBA student without a driver's license becomes
the top auto executive.

Why were profits missing? Their 1980 and 1990 cars cost too much to
build - even with two extra pistons in every engine because 'bean
counters' - not 'car guys' designed the product. "No problem" says
the MBA. "We will fund that pension fund next year and I will reap a
bonus!"

They do these things, then spin them with half truths, because you
don't ask embarrassing questions. You did not even do simple
arithmetic. Most embarrassing number is 70 Horsepower per liter.
What would a 5.0 liter Mustang do if it was only average performance?
350 horsepower. What did the 5.0 liter Mustang do? 205 Horsepower or
a pathetic 41 horsepower per liter. That is low performance. But
Ford knew they could hype the words 'high performance' and the naive
would not do simple arithmetic. Ford needs naïve customers who don't
ask embarrasssing questions. Is a trend becoming obvious yet?

Well all cars in patriotic auto companies do 70 horsepower per
liter. Turbo charged do 85. Supercharged do 100. Some patriotic
auto companies now do 80 and 90 HP/liter with only fuel injection. HP/
liter defined high performance. What does the Mustang do? What do
all Fords do? GM has a supercharged engine sold in models that end in
SS ... that only does 65 horsepower per liter. But they call it
high performance - and the dumb will buy it.

Damning numbers. Supercharge means 100 or more horsepower per
liter. But GM, like Ford, is left to sell to fools - the naive. Only
a fool would buy a supercharged car that only does 65 horsepower per
liter - then believe those lies about legacy costs. But many only
listen to advertisements - and remain fools of that propaganda.

Above introduces why Ford and GM are losing money. Those are
classic symptoms of cars design by MBA school graduates - the 'bean
counters'. When cars are designed by 'car guys', then costs decrease
AND the 70 Hp/liter engine exists in all models.

Thank god that foreigners are selling cars here. After all, the 70
Horsepower per liter engine was developed in the early 1970 in GM,
detailed in Popular Science, Mar 1990, page 82, and kept out of
America by companies that stifle innovation. Why? Patriotic auto
companies would have that 70 Hp per liter technology in cars in 1992.
So here we are in 2007. What cars from Ford and GM have 70 or more
horsepower per liter engines? Does the word 'none' sound familiar?
This is why patriots - people who believe in free markets - buy the
best and get 'rescued American technologies' in their cars. This is
why Toyota, et al are taking market share from 'cost controlled and
anti-innovation' car companies that are still using 1970 and 1980
technologies. 70 HP/liter is a damning number that says why Ford and
GM need bankruptcy. Bankruptcy saves worker jobs by firing defective
top management. GM and Ford are dominated by those who stifle
innovation - MBAs and lawyers. Bankruptcy eliminates the enemies of
American workers and replaces them with 'people who come from where
the work gets done' - also called 'car guys'.

Nothing new was posted above. Too many listen to the 'professional
spokesman' rather than talk to engineers - the 'car guys'. 1987 Ford
Taurus - first car designed by engineers in Ford in 22 years. Only
those who hated Ford would not know all this. Only those who hated
Fords would listen to lies from company MBAs and lawyers. 70
Horsepower per liter is how a patriot - one who demands innovation -
sees a problem before profits are lost. 70 Horsepower per liter
define why foreign automakers are, by definition, better American
patriots. After all, they (not Ford and GM) use the technologies
developed by American innovators. Ford and GM still don't have that
30 year old technology in all products.

On Feb 6, 7:54 pm, "Kruse" > wrote:
> Yea, I know.
> What started all this is when the government allowed foreign
> manufactures to build in the US. While the domestics had to pay for
> health care for aging workers, the foreign makers hired young
> employees that cost them virtually nothing give them insurance. And
> while the foreign makers can take a foreign-built part and simply
> paint it or put a sticker on it and call it domestically made, that
> isn't right either.
> It also isn't right that Ford can built a transmission/engine/whatever
> halfway around the world and make it cheaper than they can
> domestically.
> I will never buy a new Fusion or Focus. I can also say that while I
> have purchased new Fords in the past, I probably never will in the
> future.
> Maybe Ford should just have their cars built domestically by a foreign