R.I.P. Chrysler

nothing like a ****ing contest to liven-up a previously dead group
!!!!

as for parts/service for an orphan, Studebaker has been gone since
'66 and Packard since '56....and parts are still in abundant supply
(although service is getting sort of specialized)......in fact,
Studebaker made more selling stockpiled spare parts after they went out
of production than they had making cars for their last 14 years!

its ironic that American companies hit the skids after they arrive at
quality equity with the imports.

40 years ago we were warned that labor costs (i.e. unions) would
drive American companies out of business, but most just laughed. Now
I'm amazed that American companies can produce anything at a competitive
price. I have no plans to replace my '06 Five Hundred or '06 Mustang -
both "zero defects" since new and great cars. But I strolled thru my
dealers lot the other day and looked like some great deals. And on the
used lot: they have some just off 12 month lease '08 Taurus: less than
15,000, Limiteds, loaded with everything, certified.......asking price
$18,500 - that's really unbelievable, But, if the leasing business has
dried-up, there won't be deals like that in the future.

30 years ago we were being told that America would be transitioning
from an industrial to a service economy........kids were advised that a
high school education would no longer be enough.....companies started
offering retraining & educational benefits. some took heed.....a lot
didn't. tomorrow has arrived.

America used to be "Breadbox to the world"......I assume we still
ship a lot foodstuffs overseas - I hope we are as fair with our pricing
as our good friends as they have been to us, i.e OPEC, countries that
"dumped" goods here under cost, etc., etc.

On Nov 7, 7:28 am, (Itsfrom Click) wrote:

>
> 40 years ago we were warned that labor costs (i.e. unions) would
> drive American companies out of business, but most just laughed. Now
> I'm amazed that American companies can produce anything at a competitive
> price.


America can produce a product, at a very competitive price......IF:
It comes from a small company where the management doesn't have
bloated salaries and
it is allowed to think on it's own instead of always following
government rules.

I work for such a company (no, I'm not going to say the manufacturer)
and I now work for more
money then when I worked for a unionized company. (BTW, the unionized
company that I worked for
is shut down)

American CAN product a product at a competitive price.
Of course, my employer has a little less incentive to make money now.

And this is where it gets complex.... Up to the F550, Ford trucks get the
PowerStroke diesel 6.0.... F650 and F750 get the VT365 Navistar version -
remember this - it matters.....

The F650 and F750 also get Cummins and Caterpillar options..... But the F650
is a whole 'nother thing and can't be considered if we are talking "light"
trucks.

Now.... the 6.0 PowerStroke diesel started out life as the VT365 Navistar
engine. Navistar offers thjis engine in their own trucks in three HP
levels.... the highest being 230HP... Ford has made some changes (applied on
the Navistar assembly line) and offers this engine at 325 HP in the pick up
truck (slightly less in the E series due to charge air cooler restrictions).

Part of the problem..... this motor has already been "hot rodded"..... and
they are quite easy to "hot rod some more".... And then things start to
break.... Producing power in excess of design intentions is easy to do....
And when we do that, we can break parts....

What owners find repugnant.... Ford offers a diesel engine... this diesel
engine has already been "hot rodded".... This diesel engine has passed
emissions testing in stock trim... Joe Dimbulb buys a chip.... He turned it
to the "sport" setting and loved the extra power (and the increased tailpipe
emissions, I might add). Then he turned it to the "stupid" setting.... HOE
LEE SHEEIT!!!!! Ford has the audacity to state that they can warranty a
failed part.... but they can't warranty a stupid owner....

But.... we have found that operating the engine management system in excess
of it's designed parameters is detrimental to the expected life span of the
engine = and for some perverse reason... this has become Fords problem.....
mostly because the chip supplier will absolve themselves of any
responsibility.


"C. E. White" > wrote in message
news:49134b6f$1@kcnews01...
>
> ".boB" > wrote in message
> . com...
>> I'v taken a carefull look at Ford. The Cat diesel is frought with
>> problems. All relativly minor, like a crank position sensor. But they
>> fail all of a sudden and leave the truck stranded. Not a good thing.
>> They also seem to have problems with the transmission case cracking.
>> Heard that from many owners.
>
> You must not have looked too carefully. It is not a "Cat" diesel. All the
> PowerStroke diesel engines so far have been purchased from Navistar
> International (aka - International). The engine with the sensor problem
> was two generations ago (late 7.3L). The generation prior to the latest
> (the 6.0L) was considered problematic at first. They finally got the
> problems corrected, but then they did a major redesign (6.4L). I haven't
> heard of any problems with the latest redesign. Never heard of a problem
> with transmission cases. Which year model? Ford started using a completely
> different extra heavy duty transmission several years ago behind the
> diesel (2004 models?). I know of at least 6 farmers with the Powerstroke
> Engines - not one has had a failure. One of them uses his in truck pulls.
> The transmission has held up fine. His biggest complaint was that the
> prior generation engine (the 6.0L version) couldn't be "turned up" to
> produce more power. Apparently the 7.3L engine could easily be chipped to
> produce a lot more power - and probably this is the reason some people
> have transmission problems.
>
> Ed
>
>

wrote:
> And this is where it gets complex.... Up to the F550, Ford trucks get the
> PowerStroke diesel 6.0.... F650 and F750 get the VT365 Navistar version -
> remember this - it matters.....
>
> The F650 and F750 also get Cummins and Caterpillar options..... But the F650
> is a whole 'nother thing and can't be considered if we are talking "light"
> trucks.
>
> Now.... the 6.0 PowerStroke diesel started out life as the VT365 Navistar
> engine. Navistar offers thjis engine in their own trucks in three HP
> levels.... the highest being 230HP... Ford has made some changes (applied on
> the Navistar assembly line) and offers this engine at 325 HP in the pick up
> truck (slightly less in the E series due to charge air cooler restrictions).
>
> Part of the problem..... this motor has already been "hot rodded"..... and
> they are quite easy to "hot rod some more".... And then things start to
> break.... Producing power in excess of design intentions is easy to do....
> And when we do that, we can break parts....
>
> What owners find repugnant.... Ford offers a diesel engine... this diesel
> engine has already been "hot rodded".... This diesel engine has passed
> emissions testing in stock trim... Joe Dimbulb buys a chip.... He turned it
> to the "sport" setting and loved the extra power (and the increased tailpipe
> emissions, I might add). Then he turned it to the "stupid" setting.... HOE
> LEE SHEEIT!!!!! Ford has the audacity to state that they can warranty a
> failed part.... but they can't warranty a stupid owner....
>
> But.... we have found that operating the engine management system in excess
> of it's designed parameters is detrimental to the expected life span of the
> engine = and for some perverse reason... this has become Fords problem.....
> mostly because the chip supplier will absolve themselves of any
> responsibility.
>


I don't know about the Dodge, but I'm sure GM faces the same
problems with the Isuzu diesel as well.

--
"Gee Honey!!! Look what just came in the mail in a plain
brown wrapper!! RAT POISON AND MOUSE ****!! Lets PAR-TY!!!" - Buss Error

C. E. White wrote:
> ".boB" > wrote in
> message
> . com...
>> I'v taken a carefull look at Ford. The Cat
>> diesel is frought with
>> problems. All relativly minor, like a crank
>> position sensor. But
>> they fail all of a sudden and leave the truck
>> stranded. Not a good
>> thing. They also seem to have problems with
>> the transmission case
>> cracking. Heard that from many owners.
>
> You must not have looked too carefully. It is
> not a "Cat" diesel. All
> the PowerStroke diesel engines so far have been
> purchased from
> Navistar International (aka - International).
> The engine with the
> sensor problem was two generations ago (late
> 7.3L). The generation
> prior to the latest (the 6.0L) was considered
> problematic at first.
> They finally got the problems corrected, but
> then they did a major
> redesign (6.4L). I haven't heard of any problems
> with the latest
> redesign. Never heard of a problem with
> transmission cases. Which year
> model? Ford started using a completely different
> extra heavy duty
> transmission several years ago behind the diesel
> (2004 models?). I
> know of at least 6 farmers with the Powerstroke
> Engines - not one has
> had a failure. One of them uses his in truck
> pulls. The transmission
> has held up fine. His biggest complaint was that
> the prior generation
> engine (the 6.0L version) couldn't be "turned
> up" to produce more
> power. Apparently the 7.3L engine could easily
> be chipped to produce a
> lot more power - and probably this is the reason
> some people have
> transmission problems.
>
> Ed

OK, International, not Cat. Obviously, I like
Fords. If you were going to buy a used Ford
Diesel, what years and engines would you be
looking for? I have no plans to hot rod it. And
I'll only be doing light towing, like 5-6K#; but
often at high altitude.

I tested a new Ford a few months ago, and I
really liked it. It was quiet, smooth, and rode
really nice. But by reading the diesel boards,
the Fords seem to suffer from failures more than
others. It didn't seem like big things, but small
things that frustated the owners and left them
stranded and faced with a tow. Who needs that?

--------
..boB
2006 FXDI hot rod
2008 Mustang Coupe
2001 Dodge Dakota QC 5.9/4x4/3.92
1965 FFR Cobra - 427W EFI, Damn Fast.

diesels: without any evidence, I always suspected that diesels are
carcinogenic, 'tho I never heard or ready anything to that affect. Now
in the past couple days, I've heard a couple "experts" on the news
referring to the "widely known carcinogenic danger of diesel exhuast
fumes".

any info on if the new "clean" diesels are any safer?

Chrysler/GM: with all the reports of a merger, I couldn't think of
why a merger would be desirable to either. (sort of reminds me of an
article about the Studebaker-Packard "merger" when it went bad in '56:
"........like two drunks trying to help each other across the street."

Suddenly, all the financial shows are talking about how GM will run out
of cash by the end of the year, and referring to what a dumb idea the
merger would have been. Sound like it must be off. (I guess the
automakers can't be blamed for trying to get some of the bailout
billions......but sad tho' it might be, think they should swim or sink
on their own without sucking-up any tax dollars).