Hello Again... I'm back....

Been out of the newsgroup thing for a while, I moved from a desktop computer
to a laptop, and have difficultied getting the laptop to read news groups
when both at work (wifi) and here at home (dialup).
Anyway, I left Firestone a year and a half ago and have been working at a
Subaru dealership. I'm the "Used Car Guy" If it aint a Subaru, it's mine.
The boss is sending me to Subaru School this spring, going to make a honest
man of me. I havent done a lot of Diag lately, mostly leaks and stuff, do my
diag skills are slipping. Also noticed many of the tools that were usefull
at Firestone are setting and getting dusty. Ball joint tools and such.
The Subie is a great car to work on and I thing I will be here untill it's
time to quit. The pay per job is good, and many jobs that are difficult on
many other cars are a breeze on a subie.
I was handycapped for a while, I had no access to an auto data base untill a
week ago. The shop finally subcrribed to AllData, and I was allowed to put
it on my laptop. It's great, I now have access to most auto stuff at home
now!
If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me.

Tegger, I think of you whenever I remove a tie rod end or a ball joint with
a 4 lb hammer in under 10 seconds. Someday I will have to video it for you.

Take care
Steve
Ase Master Tech.

"StephenW" > wrote in
:


>
> Tegger, I think of you whenever I remove a tie rod end or a ball joint
> with a 4 lb hammer in under 10 seconds. Someday I will have to video
> it for you.
>



Hey, welcome back! We need some actual working techs in this group. The
mechanic I usually go to is a big Subaru fan. He even races them in the
winter.

I have access to all the Honda TSB's and HSN publications, but precious
little outside that except what I can scrounge from some people I know
(and some of that seems to not be as accurate as I need it to be).
So anything you can add would be great.

If you video that balljoint thing, I'd love to see it. I could post it on
the relevant FAQ page about balljoints.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"StephenW" > wrote in
:


> If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me.
>


Have you been following the thread entitled
"'Black Box' information retention"?

What do you know about that subject?

I had some info given to me by a very knowledgeable person, but his info
was more specific to Toyota, which he didn't tell me at first.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger wrote:
<snip for clarity>
> If you video that balljoint thing, I'd love to see it. I could post it on
> the relevant FAQ page about balljoints.

please don't. it's extremely bad practice and is guaranteed to f-up
when done by an amateur. especially on something older that's had a
chance to rust and seize.

encourage the use of the proper tool and safe working practice. knowing
how to remove a lug nut with a chisel doesn't mean you should actually
do it that way.

"Tegger" > wrote in message
...
> "StephenW" > wrote in
> :
>
>
>> If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me.
>>
>
>
> Have you been following the thread entitled
> "'Black Box' information retention"?
>
> What do you know about that subject?
>
> I had some info given to me by a very knowledgeable person, but his info
> was more specific to Toyota, which he didn't tell me at first.
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/


I read it, and remember a bit of light info concerning it a few years ago,
but have seen nothing of it "in the field" Next spring when they send me to
the first Subaru Tech class I will ask the instructor what he knows of it in
the Subaru line.
Did the Windstar inner tie rod and hub assy; 3 hits to the side if the tie
rod attach point and the tier rod was loose.

Steve

StephenW wrote:
> "Tegger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "StephenW" > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>
>>> If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me.
>>>
>>
>> Have you been following the thread entitled
>> "'Black Box' information retention"?
>>
>> What do you know about that subject?
>>
>> I had some info given to me by a very knowledgeable person, but his info
>> was more specific to Toyota, which he didn't tell me at first.
>>
>> --
>> Tegger
>>
>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>
>
> I read it, and remember a bit of light info concerning it a few years ago,
> but have seen nothing of it "in the field" Next spring when they send me to
> the first Subaru Tech class I will ask the instructor what he knows of it in
> the Subaru line.
> Did the Windstar inner tie rod and hub assy; 3 hits to the side if the tie
> rod attach point and the tier rod was loose.

as were all the bearings after you brinelled them...

use the correct freakin' tool and do what it says in the freakin' book.
people don't bother to write procedures just so morons with 4lb
hammers can ignore them.

>
> please don't. it's extremely bad practice and is guaranteed to f-up when
> done by an amateur. especially on something older that's had a chance to
> rust and seize.



I watch it being done every day, by 4 other Master Techs. I will look
tommorow and see what the "Proper" way and tools are, and if provided by
Subaru or the Snap-on dealer. I have never damaged a car doing this or seen
one damaged in this method.. If it don't get free in a few good wacks (or
has tons of rust on it), you may have other problems.
It is a trick of the trade, nothing more, and it works.
The one thing you learn in a shop is what techniques you can use to save
time.

Take Care, Steve

Did a all data search, Honda shows the neat little tool for removing ball
joints, but Subaru says "seperate ball joint" with no instructions. I'll go
by the Honda Shop and ask how they do it, in the real world.
Steve

>
> as were all the bearings after you brinelled them...
>
> use the correct freakin' tool and do what it says in the freakin' book.
> people don't bother to write procedures just so morons with 4lb hammers
> can ignore them.



Wow, quick reply. Car is fine, no damage to the new bearings. The three hits
mearly jarred the tie rod end loose. I won't fail, Better not, Mom-in-law
needs her van!!!

Cheers!
Steve

StephenW wrote:
>> please don't. it's extremely bad practice and is guaranteed to f-up when
>> done by an amateur. especially on something older that's had a chance to
>> rust and seize.
>
>
>
> I watch it being done every day, by 4 other Master Techs. I will look
> tommorow and see what the "Proper" way and tools are, and if provided by
> Subaru or the Snap-on dealer. I have never damaged a car doing this or seen
> one damaged in this method.. If it don't get free in a few good wacks (or
> has tons of rust on it), you may have other problems.
> It is a trick of the trade, nothing more, and it works.
> The one thing you learn in a shop is what techniques you can use to save
> time.

no ****.

but have you ever stopped to think /why/ this stuff loosens when you hit
it? it's because it's being deformed, that's why.

1. with a ball joint, its factory tightness and integrity is assured
after it's pressed together. this is a precision process. that can
however be destroyed by indiscriminate use of a hammer by locally
deforming the socket, or even the ball. when disassembling a joint with
the proper tool, all pressure is applied to the suspension member and
the mounting pillar of the joint, not to the ball or the ball housing.
therefore the ball is never overloaded, cannot be inadvertently loosened
or deformed. or worse, hammered to initiate fatigue.

2. with a tie rod end, where it bolts to the rack [rack and pinion],
apart from the same issues with the ball joint as described above,
hammering so the rack receives blows brinells the rack bearing in the
housing. again, this may not be immediately apparent, but it will
shorten the life of the rack. or even crack the alloy housing.

3. metal fatigue is commonly initiated by surface damage. hammer marks
are classic for this. fatigue breakage won't happen immediately, only
when the car is a long way away so nobody will associate all the carnage
with you.

4. all this applies to every other suspension member that receives blows
in this fashion. all bearings, rolling element bearings, ball & socket
bearings, sliding journal bearings, /none/ are designed for this kind of
impact loading. sure, suspension gets big loading from riding the car
over potholes, etc. but examined with an accelerometer, /none/ of this,
thanks to the tire, is as severe as the loading inflicted by hammer
blows. wheel bearings can take hundreds of thousands of miles of road
abuse. but the impact of one single blow with a hammer can brinell them
and they'll fail in a few miles afterwards.

bottom line, there's a book with a factory procedure. that exists for
you to follow. if i caught your dumb ass hammering a customer's car to
split the ball joints "just to save time", i'd hammer your dumb ass out
of a job on the spot.