more Saturn complaints (casting flaws cause cracked heads)

Saturn (GM) STANDARD OPERATING PROCEEDURE

When we at GM discover an epidemic costly flaw in our cars (like
casting flaws in our cylinder heads that will cause the head to
eventually CRACK); and before we become aware of the problem, tens of
thousands of cars with the flaw have gone off the assembly line to
dealers and customers


We withold that information (sending out a service notice) for as
long
as we can- so as to get as many of those cars affected, OVER the
warranty period. That way, we are not liable to cover the cost of the
repair or replacement and we are able to cut our loses!


Also: If a new car customer who has been taking his car to the dealer
for regular scheduled maintainance, CHANGES ADDRESS, and the dealer
fails to notify the company of the new address and because of this
dealer failure- we send out a service notice to the old address and
thus the notice never reaches the customer:


When the service notice is returned to us as "undeliverable"; we will
NOT make any attempt to reach the customer at his new address and
notify him of the service notice. We are not liable for our dealer's
failure nor will we take any action against our dealer for this
failure
in an attempt to compensate the customer,should he have been unaware
of
the notice and suffers a costly repair bill after his warranty has
run
out!


Anyone who doubts the above policy can contact (among many others):
Grand Rapids (Michigan) Saturn.


(That is; if anyone there admits his knowledge of and has the COURAGE
to verify the above policy)
signed.


Michael Cohrman



The above policy is known by many but I have never seen it posted
anywhere. If you want to verify or deny the above policy from your
own
experience- please do!

Want specific examples of GM witholding costly information on their
cars? Contact:


Patricia of Bath ME (9/15/03):
Cylinder head cracked, Saturn is aware there is a problem but their
position is, if it didn't happen in 6 years or 100,000 miles
(whichever
came first) I'm out of luck. Of course the local dealer will fix it
for
$1,800. I own a 1994 Saturn SW1 with 94,502 miles. The service
bullentin came out in 1999. I believe that they knew it to be a
defect
in the parts they used and it should be fixed no matter what the age
of
the car.


Of couse they would like the public to think that after their
timeframe
the car will never have the problem or by magic it will repair
itself.
If the only humans worked this way after 6 years all birth defects
would just disappear. What a wonderful world it would be. All I have
to
say is -- dream on, Saturn. I can't wait to get the car fixed and
trade
it in for another car.



GM standard operating proceedure [ To: misterfact | Post
296013896, reply to 296013865 ] (Sco 2)



Cylinder head cracked, Saturn is aware there is a problem but their
position is, if it didn't happen in 6 years or 100,000 miles
(whichever came first) I'm out of luck.

(think I'm going to buy a Toyota pickup. I've always been a Dodge man,
and I'd love to have a new Cummins, but I think I'm done with American
auto companies.

I think I want a Toyota or a Nissan, club cab, full size. Something my
dogs can ride in with me.

..

misterfact
(nonconformist)



Saturn recalls

http://www.internetautoguide.com/aut...ies/index.html

misterfact
(nonconformist)
01/18/08 09:54 AM
GM standard operating proceedure [ To: Jhoffa_ | Post
296013960, reply to 296013929 ] (Sco 1)


Saturn has made over 100,000 cars with casting flaws in their cylinder
heads. The flaw causes the head to crack- usually after the warranty
expires.

This figure was given to me by a Saturn "insider".


http://www.carreview.com/mfr/saturn/...3_1531crx.aspx

Summary:
We were very happy with our Saturn until the warranty ran out. As far
as I am concerned these lemons have built in flaws.With only 56000
miles and a dedicated maintanance regime we now face a $4000.00 repair
cost for replacing something on just about everything. Speed sensor,
transmission valve and a computer overhaul. We thought we had made a
good choice when we bought this car 6 years ago. My wife loved it. We
were treated great by all the staff at Saturn and it seemed to us that
we were getting a fine automobile......Then the warranty ran out and
so did all the friendlyness. We now face a bill almost 1/4 the size of
what we paid for it originaly. We are going to do the minimum to get
it running and dump this turkey. We have started looking around for a
minivan and believe me, it won't be a Saturn. They should be ashamed
of themselves for foisting an inferior product on trusting people.
(But I doubt they are.)


Weaknesses:
Constant problems with the air conditioning.I bet you've read that one
before. Things start falling apart after the warranty expires. too
many built in flaws in my opinion.



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Join CarReview for a free account, or Login if you are already a
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misterfact
(maverick)
04/12/08 09:53 AM
GM standard operating proceedure [ To: misterfact | Post
296172871, reply to 296013865 ] (Sco 1)


Dear Mister Fact;
>
> > Hello,
>
> I also am very frustrated with the integrity of the
> saturn car dealership here in Holland, Michigan. I
> have been on top of every check-up in the 43,000
> miles of my car's life. I own a 2003 Saturn Ion. On
> January 28, I took my car in because my coolant
> light was on. They couldn't find a leak doing a
> pressure test - so then they topped off my coolant
> and told me I was okay to drive it. 4 weeks later,
> my engine is overheating and upon inspection, they
> let me know that my cylinder head is cracked and my
> engine needs to be replaced. 43,000 miles!! I did
> everything to the "t" as far as car upkeep: oil
> changes, 30,000k tune up, tire rotation, fluid
> check, etc... and the Saturn of Holland, Michigan
> aren't owning up to their role in this mess nor am I
> getting anywhere with the customer service rep. at
> Saturn Inc.
> Do you have any advice/tips to pursue this further
> or get someone to own up to the poor quality of
> service and the horrible products they are making?
>
> They told me that I probably had a 'lemon' - that
> one car that was made on a Friday afternoon before
> the weekend ---- and the engine was probably faulty
> from the start.
>
> Thanks in advance for getting back to me about this.
>
> -Christen
>
> --
> Complaints.com - consumers in control

Mister Fact -- Mister Misinformation would be more accurate.

> wrote in message
...
> Saturn (GM) STANDARD OPERATING PROCEEDURE
>
> When we at GM discover an epidemic costly flaw in our cars (like
> casting flaws in our cylinder heads that will cause the head to
> eventually CRACK); and before we become aware of the problem, tens of
> thousands of cars with the flaw have gone off the assembly line to
> dealers and customers
>
>
> We withold that information (sending out a service notice) for as
> long
> as we can- so as to get as many of those cars affected, OVER the
> warranty period. That way, we are not liable to cover the cost of the
> repair or replacement and we are able to cut our loses!
>
>
> Also: If a new car customer who has been taking his car to the dealer
> for regular scheduled maintainance, CHANGES ADDRESS, and the dealer
> fails to notify the company of the new address and because of this
> dealer failure- we send out a service notice to the old address and
> thus the notice never reaches the customer:
>
>
> When the service notice is returned to us as "undeliverable"; we will
> NOT make any attempt to reach the customer at his new address and
> notify him of the service notice. We are not liable for our dealer's
> failure nor will we take any action against our dealer for this
> failure
> in an attempt to compensate the customer,should he have been unaware
> of
> the notice and suffers a costly repair bill after his warranty has
> run
> out!
>
>
> Anyone who doubts the above policy can contact (among many others):
> Grand Rapids (Michigan) Saturn.
>
>
> (That is; if anyone there admits his knowledge of and has the COURAGE
> to verify the above policy)
> signed.
>
>
> Michael Cohrman
>
>
>
> The above policy is known by many but I have never seen it posted
> anywhere. If you want to verify or deny the above policy from your
> own
> experience- please do!
>
> Want specific examples of GM witholding costly information on their
> cars? Contact:
>
>
> Patricia of Bath ME (9/15/03):
> Cylinder head cracked, Saturn is aware there is a problem but their
> position is, if it didn't happen in 6 years or 100,000 miles
> (whichever
> came first) I'm out of luck. Of course the local dealer will fix it
> for
> $1,800. I own a 1994 Saturn SW1 with 94,502 miles. The service
> bullentin came out in 1999. I believe that they knew it to be a
> defect
> in the parts they used and it should be fixed no matter what the age
> of
> the car.
>
>
> Of couse they would like the public to think that after their
> timeframe
> the car will never have the problem or by magic it will repair
> itself.
> If the only humans worked this way after 6 years all birth defects
> would just disappear. What a wonderful world it would be. All I have
> to
> say is -- dream on, Saturn. I can't wait to get the car fixed and
> trade
> it in for another car.
>
>
>
> GM standard operating proceedure [ To: misterfact | Post
> 296013896, reply to 296013865 ] (Sco 2)
>
>
>
> Cylinder head cracked, Saturn is aware there is a problem but their
> position is, if it didn't happen in 6 years or 100,000 miles
> (whichever came first) I'm out of luck.
>
> (think I'm going to buy a Toyota pickup. I've always been a Dodge man,
> and I'd love to have a new Cummins, but I think I'm done with American
> auto companies.
>
> I think I want a Toyota or a Nissan, club cab, full size. Something my
> dogs can ride in with me.
>
> .
>
> misterfact
> (nonconformist)
>
>
>
> Saturn recalls
>
> http://www.internetautoguide.com/aut...ies/index.html
>
> misterfact
> (nonconformist)
> 01/18/08 09:54 AM
> GM standard operating proceedure [ To: Jhoffa_ | Post
> 296013960, reply to 296013929 ] (Sco 1)
>
>
> Saturn has made over 100,000 cars with casting flaws in their cylinder
> heads. The flaw causes the head to crack- usually after the warranty
> expires.
>
> This figure was given to me by a Saturn "insider".
>
>
> http://www.carreview.com/mfr/saturn/...3_1531crx.aspx
>
> Summary:
> We were very happy with our Saturn until the warranty ran out. As far
> as I am concerned these lemons have built in flaws.With only 56000
> miles and a dedicated maintanance regime we now face a $4000.00 repair
> cost for replacing something on just about everything. Speed sensor,
> transmission valve and a computer overhaul. We thought we had made a
> good choice when we bought this car 6 years ago. My wife loved it. We
> were treated great by all the staff at Saturn and it seemed to us that
> we were getting a fine automobile......Then the warranty ran out and
> so did all the friendlyness. We now face a bill almost 1/4 the size of
> what we paid for it originaly. We are going to do the minimum to get
> it running and dump this turkey. We have started looking around for a
> minivan and believe me, it won't be a Saturn. They should be ashamed
> of themselves for foisting an inferior product on trusting people.
> (But I doubt they are.)
>
>
> Weaknesses:
> Constant problems with the air conditioning.I bet you've read that one
> before. Things start falling apart after the warranty expires. too
> many built in flaws in my opinion.
>
>
>
> Would you like to Comment?
> Join CarReview for a free account, or Login if you are already a
> member.
>
> misterfact
> (maverick)
> 04/12/08 09:53 AM
> GM standard operating proceedure [ To: misterfact | Post
> 296172871, reply to 296013865 ] (Sco 1)
>
>
> Dear Mister Fact;
>>
>> > Hello,
>>
>> I also am very frustrated with the integrity of the
>> saturn car dealership here in Holland, Michigan. I
>> have been on top of every check-up in the 43,000
>> miles of my car's life. I own a 2003 Saturn Ion. On
>> January 28, I took my car in because my coolant
>> light was on. They couldn't find a leak doing a
>> pressure test - so then they topped off my coolant
>> and told me I was okay to drive it. 4 weeks later,
>> my engine is overheating and upon inspection, they
>> let me know that my cylinder head is cracked and my
>> engine needs to be replaced. 43,000 miles!! I did
>> everything to the "t" as far as car upkeep: oil
>> changes, 30,000k tune up, tire rotation, fluid
>> check, etc... and the Saturn of Holland, Michigan
>> aren't owning up to their role in this mess nor am I
>> getting anywhere with the customer service rep. at
>> Saturn Inc.
>> Do you have any advice/tips to pursue this further
>> or get someone to own up to the poor quality of
>> service and the horrible products they are making?
>>
>> They told me that I probably had a 'lemon' - that
>> one car that was made on a Friday afternoon before
>> the weekend ---- and the engine was probably faulty
>> from the start.
>>
>> Thanks in advance for getting back to me about this.
>>
>> -Christen
>>
>> --
>> Complaints.com - consumers in control
>
>
>

On Apr 14, 6:19*am, "marx404" > wrote:
> more Mr. Fag.....
>
> Please do not feed this troll.
>
> I work for Saturn and not a word of this unreadable garbage is true as those
> who own a Saturn already know.
>
> Please do not feed this troll.
>
> --
> marx404

They sure keep you busy in the repair dept don't they?

"marx404" > wrote in message ...
> more Mr. Fag.....
>
> Please do not feed this troll.

Good advice!
>
> I work for Saturn and not a word of this unreadable garbage is true as those who own a Saturn already know.

Are you implying that you believe that Saturn engines have not had a "cracked head" problem? If so, I would suggest
you need to talk to your dealer's service department and/ or more customers. If you are implying that "MisterFact" is
grossly exaggerating and possibly lying outright about GM's handling of the problem, then I'm inclined to agree with
you.

Steve wrote:
> "marx404" > wrote in message ...
>> more Mr. Fag.....
>>
>> Please do not feed this troll.
>
> Good advice!
>> I work for Saturn and not a word of this unreadable garbage is true as those who own a Saturn already know.
>
> Are you implying that you believe that Saturn engines have not had a "cracked head" problem? If so, I would suggest
> you need to talk to your dealer's service department and/ or more customers. If you are implying that "MisterFact" is
> grossly exaggerating and possibly lying outright about GM's handling of the problem, then I'm inclined to agree with
> you.

He got 100,000 miles out of a GM product. If he wanted a longer lasting
vehicle he could have bought one. No one was holding a gun to his head
and forcing him to buy a Saturn. Many people buy a vehicle with the full
intention of keeping it for more than six years or 100K miles, but most
of these people are smart enough to do a little research prior to making
a purchase. Even before the casting flaw was discovered, Saturn's engine
reliability problems were legendary and well-documented. "Misterfact"
apparently did no pre-purchase research, and when this backfired on him
he went non-linear.

Marx404 is trying to sell Saturns, you can't blame him for wanting to
gloss over what happened in the past, and get upset when anyone brings
it up. The fact is that those early owners that couldn't get their
vehicles fixed under the recall (or whatever GM called it) are unlikely
to ever buy a Saturn or GM car again, and a few of them are upset enough
about their loss to complain about it forever. OTOH, those that were
covered and got their vehicles fixed are probably big fans of Saturn and
GM for "doing the right thing."

The current Saturn models bear no relation to the ones with the casting
flaws. However it's still instructive to look at the Alldata TSB lists
for competing models of vehicles of recent vintage as part of evaluating
which vehicles to buy (see "http://www.alldata.com/").

Also look at the JD Power Long Term Dependability studies. While a good
rating for three year dependability doesn't necessarily imply a good ten
year rating, a poor three year dependability rating probably does imply
a poor ten year rating. It's interesting that 2004 (for 2001 models) is
the last year that Saturn was ranked above the industry average in
dependability.

"http://www.autoblog.com/photos/j-d-power-2007-vehicle-dependability-study/346679/"
"http://www.autoblog.com/2006/08/09/j-d-power-dependability-results-are-out/"
"http://www.curbzone.com/pit/2543-j-d-power-releases-long-term-vehicle-dependability-study.html"
"http://www.prnewswire.com/mnr/jdpower/12513/"

Saturn has some nice vehicles now, but those looking for a vehicle to
keep for a long period of time would be advised to be wary.

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:48:02 -0400, "marx404" > wrote:

>Steve I'm sure that most here already know of the many issues the 1.9L
>engine had, but it's not an epidemic, trust me. The 1.9 in question hasn't

What issues do the 1.9's have ???? I just bought a 95 SL1 with 146,000 and it runs good.
What can I look forward to in the future ???

Thanks
Brian

"Brian" > wrote in message ...
> On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:48:02 -0400, "marx404" > wrote:
>
>>Steve I'm sure that most here already know of the many issues the 1.9L
>>engine had, but it's not an epidemic, trust me. The 1.9 in question hasn't
>
> What issues do the 1.9's have ???? I just bought a 95 SL1 with 146,000 and it runs good.
> What can I look forward to in the future ???
>
> Thanks
> Brian

The main issue, as far as I am aware, is the casting flaw that caused oil and coolant to mix either in the oil
crankcase or the coolant system. If your SL has over 100,000 miles, chances are this flaw has either been caught and
corrected or (more likely) your engine did not suffer from this flaw. There are other, less serious, problems such as
wrong plug gapping and fuel pump but, again, your car has either had them and they've been fixed or your car never had
them. I would expect that as long as you ensure your SL gets regular maintenance (especially timing chain replacement),
the only problems you can expect are those endemic to all older cars.

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 13:34:53 -0400, "Steve" m>
wrote:

>"Brian" > wrote in message ...
>> On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:48:02 -0400, "marx404" > wrote:
>>
>>>Steve I'm sure that most here already know of the many issues the 1.9L
>>>engine had, but it's not an epidemic, trust me. The 1.9 in question hasn't
>>
>> What issues do the 1.9's have ???? I just bought a 95 SL1 with 146,000 and it runs good.
>> What can I look forward to in the future ???
>>
>> Thanks
>> Brian
>
> The main issue, as far as I am aware, is the casting flaw that caused oil and coolant to mix either in the oil
>crankcase or the coolant system. If your SL has over 100,000 miles, chances are this flaw has either been caught and
>corrected or (more likely) your engine did not suffer from this flaw. There are other, less serious, problems such as
>wrong plug gapping and fuel pump but, again, your car has either had them and they've been fixed or your car never had
>them. I would expect that as long as you ensure your SL gets regular maintenance (especially timing chain replacement),
>the only problems you can expect are those endemic to all older cars.
>

Does the timing chain break ???? I would figure a chain would last the life of the car, unlike
belts.......

Brian

Brian wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 13:34:53 -0400, "Steve"
> m> wrote:
>> them. I would expect that as long as you ensure your SL gets
>> regular maintenance (especially timing chain replacement), the only
>> problems you can expect are those endemic to all older cars.
>>
>
> Does the timing chain break ???? I would figure a chain would last
> the life of the car, unlike belts.......

A timing CHAIN is made up of a few 100 metal links that rub and rotate against each other. They are designed to do this and oil is continuously applied. But over time they will wear gradually and play will develop. Modern (last 20 years) engines are designed to deal with a bit of this play but at some point they need to be replaced. If they break bad things can happen.

As to lasting the life of the car, when we drove cars 100K miles or less, well they usually did. (A 10 year old car with 100K miles in the 60s was usually a clunker worth little more than scrap.) I own cars with 210K, 135K, and 190K miles on them. "Life" has a new meaning than in days of old.

David Ross

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 04:52:40 -0700, SMS >
wrote:

>Steve wrote:
>> "marx404" > wrote in message ...
>>> more Mr. Fag.....
>>>
>>> Please do not feed this troll.
>>
>> Good advice!
>>> I work for Saturn and not a word of this unreadable garbage is true as those who own a Saturn already know.
>>
>> Are you implying that you believe that Saturn engines have not had a "cracked head" problem? If so, I would suggest
>> you need to talk to your dealer's service department and/ or more customers. If you are implying that "MisterFact" is
>> grossly exaggerating and possibly lying outright about GM's handling of the problem, then I'm inclined to agree with
>> you.
>
>He got 100,000 miles out of a GM product. If he wanted a longer lasting
>vehicle he could have bought one. No one was holding a gun to his head
>and forcing him to buy a Saturn. Many people buy a vehicle with the full
>intention of keeping it for more than six years or 100K miles, but most
>of these people are smart enough to do a little research prior to making
>a purchase. Even before the casting flaw was discovered, Saturn's engine
>reliability problems were legendary and well-documented. "Misterfact"
>apparently did no pre-purchase research, and when this backfired on him
>he went non-linear.
>
>Marx404 is trying to sell Saturns, you can't blame him for wanting to
>gloss over what happened in the past, and get upset when anyone brings
>it up. The fact is that those early owners that couldn't get their
>vehicles fixed under the recall (or whatever GM called it) are unlikely
>to ever buy a Saturn or GM car again, and a few of them are upset enough
>about their loss to complain about it forever. OTOH, those that were
>covered and got their vehicles fixed are probably big fans of Saturn and
>GM for "doing the right thing."
>
>The current Saturn models bear no relation to the ones with the casting
>flaws. However it's still instructive to look at the Alldata TSB lists
>for competing models of vehicles of recent vintage as part of evaluating
>which vehicles to buy (see "http://www.alldata.com/").
>
>Also look at the JD Power Long Term Dependability studies. While a good
>rating for three year dependability doesn't necessarily imply a good ten
>year rating, a poor three year dependability rating probably does imply
>a poor ten year rating. It's interesting that 2004 (for 2001 models) is
>the last year that Saturn was ranked above the industry average in
>dependability.
>
>"http://www.autoblog.com/photos/j-d-power-2007-vehicle-dependability-study/346679/"
>"http://www.autoblog.com/2006/08/09/j-d-power-dependability-results-are-out/"
>"http://www.curbzone.com/pit/2543-j-d-power-releases-long-term-vehicle-dependability-study.html"
>"http://www.prnewswire.com/mnr/jdpower/12513/"
>
>Saturn has some nice vehicles now, but those looking for a vehicle to
>keep for a long period of time would be advised to be wary.

Consumer Reports shows that Saturns generally range from a little
worse than average (Ion, Vue) to a lot worse than average (Relay,
Sky). GM managed to start a cult with Saturn, but no one is drinking
the Cool-Ade anymore.