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#11
December 4th 07, 03:39 AM
posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.explorer
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94 Explorer VIN X V6 runs for a minute and dies
On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 20:31:36 -0500, AS > wrote:
>Having tried the spray, it seems that your problem is the fuel system >and for now we can forget about the rest. On the rail at 30 psi >Do you have pressure fuel in the rail? You mentioned you measure it >before but I am not sure if it was in the line or directly on the rail. I used an automotive sethoscope and checked #1 and #2 and heard the steady clicking. I should also note that #1 sounded weak compareded to #2, but #1 is hard to get to so that I may not be getting onto the metal body. If I hear the clicking do I still need to do the lamp test? >Now that you have the lamp, you can try disconnecting one of the >injectors and connecting the lamp in its place, or you could tap into >the wires using sewing needles or pins. Prevent the two pins from >touching each other. Hook the wires to the pins. Crank the engine and >see if the lamp comes on and off as the engine cranks. The second way >is more cumbersome but more realistic as well. I agree about all six at once, unless there is a voltage drop that would be too low to actuate the solenoid. >If you have pressure and you have the signal going to the injectors, and >you have the spark (would be nice to see the timing of the injector and >the spark) the fact that it comes on when you use the spray would then >indicate that injectors are for some reason clogged, or stuck, but in my >experience, for the 6 of them to fail at the same time would be an oddity. Mine is not adjustable, plug and play... >Some of the crank position sensors Ford used are/were adjustable; not >sure in your particular car. If your is not, then you are set. Pulled 2 and they looked OK. >I now doubt that the plugs are fouled, but you can look at them and see >that the insulator surrounding the center electrode is not look oily or >black with lots of soot or deposits. Just started reading the article and the beginning lists all of the symptoms I'm experiencing and would make sense that as the engine warms up the symptoms become exaggerated. Since I was probably burning as much coolant as fuel that would certainly plug up the converter. Now that I have repaired the the combustion chamber issues as in valves ground, new valve stem seals, head gasket, new plugs, etc. the load on the converter would be greater and creating excessive back pressure, if I'm reading this right. BUT why would it run so smooth right after the rebuild progressively get worse with each additional start the last couple of days. Of course having the car sit for a bit (between starts) would allow the converter to cool down. I guess its time to disconnect it and see what happens. >To check the cat converter, use this as reference: >http://www.aa1car.com/library/converter.htm The burning of coolant must have been going on after I had a severe overheating issue a couple of years ago and now it may have finally caught up with me. Hopefully, its the converter. At least the problem will be solved. >Good luck! > >J Adams wrote: >> On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 21:58:45 -0500, AS > wrote: >> >> If I find out what is causing it not to start would that likely also >> identify the rough (missing) idle and rough running condition? I >> should note here that car only got about 12MPG city and 16/17 hwy. I >> read that I should get 15/17 city and 20 hwy. I'm not a lead foot, >> well ocassionally maybe. >> >>>Let's try and figure out what prevents the car from starting, electrical >>>or fuel system. >> >> >> Tried this with carb and choke cleaner >> >>>So lets assume it is lack of fuel. You disconnect the air induction >>>duct from the throttle body when the car is dead, have someone depress >>>the gas pedal all the way (to open the throttle body) and then spray the >>>starting fluid at the same time the other person cranks the engine. If >>>the problem were lack of fuel, then it should start. >> >> I had to this by myself and quickly. >> 1) Removed air duct >> 2) Sprayed some into open throttle body >> 3) Tried to restart, no start. >> 4) Sprayed lots >> 5) Tried to restart, yes, briefly started >> 6) Sprayed lots more >> 7) Tried to restart, yes, briefly started and longer than #5 >> This may have been more effective with another person helping >> Should note here on second start I took it up to 3000RPMs and it ran >> OK for a short time, 30 secs?, then started missing and died. Each >> time I tried to restart after that no luck with the exceptions using >> the carb cleaner. >> >>>This brings to mind something else, it could be excess fuel, engine >>>flooded. Opening the throttle completely and holding it there while >>>cranking, and not spraying starting fluid would make it possible to start. >> >> >> Bought 272-1099 and soldered on 18" extension so I could see when >> attached to the injectors on the drivers side. What now? >> >>>The injectors are 12v solenoid valves, with the positive always on (when >>>the ignition is on) and the negative controlled by the computer. So in >>>getting the lamp, you know it is 12 volts and need one that draws as lil >>>current as possible. Radio Shack item 272-1099 would work fine due to >>>the low current. Item 276-272 is a 12V LED assy. but you may need to >>>observe the polarity. I would go with the lamps. >> >> >> Doubled checked gap on installation at 52. Given the vehicle has never >> ran more than a couple of minutes over a dozen or so attempts could >> they be fouled? >> >>>Are the spark plugs fouled? The gap properly adjusted? >> >> >> Got an adjustable gap spark tester, but will have to wait for >> assistant for trial (applies to injector test as well). >> >>>I do not think you need a new spark plug to test the spark, just expose >>>the terminal at the end of the wire or use a small rod that does just >>>that. Get the rod close to the cylinder head when cranking the engine >>>and test the spark. I would grab the boot on the wire with insulated >>>pliers. Do not get the rod close to any electrical or electronic >>>components, just the head and do not short it to the head, keep a gap. >>> >>>The water and black soot I would consider normal on a cold engine. >> >> >> I didn't you could adjust the gap, the locating pin and bolts are a >> pretty tight fit. With the old or new the result was the same. >> >>>How did you adjust the gap of the crankshaft position sensor? >>> >> >> Would this be the next step? >> >>>Other than lots of noise, what happens if you detach the cat converter >> >>>from the exhaust pipe? >> >> No >> >>>Was the engine burning oil? >> >> >> How do I check for plugged cat conv? >> >>>Could the cat be plugged? >> >> >> I appreciate the offer, I'm in Tucson, Arizona >> >>>Just out of curiosity, where in the world are u? If you are in south >>>east FL i can give you a hand. >>> >> >> Thanks for all your input. You have been very helpful. >> >>>Again, good luck! >>> >>> >>> >>>J Adams wrote: >>> >>> >>>>On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 00:46:57 -0500, AS > wrote: >>>> >>>>There are a couple of other observations I should note: >>>>The reason I began this project was the engine would have poor >>>>acceleration (weak power) and missing then progressed to missing even >>>>at a steady speed and sometimes die. But when it died it would restart >>>>easily which is not the case now. >>>>1) After rebuilding the first start the engine sounded perfect. >>>>2) The engine had set for a week while I did the rebuild. >>>>3) After each start (after rebuild) now it is running progressively >>>>worse. It now is beginning to miss even at idle. >>>> >>>> >>>>>Because of the sputtering, I would imagine the problem being lack of >>>>>fuel, but the fuel smell in the exhaust pipe when dead, kills this opinion. >>>> >>>> >>>>No, the fittings are different sizes >>>> >>>> >>>>>Any chances of having the fuel rail fuel supply hose and return hose >>>>>reversed? >>>> >>>> >>>>Yes, also I notice quite a bit of condensation (water) below the >>>>exhaust and black soot. >>>> >>>> >>>>>Any chance of kids, or rodents putting something in the exhaust pipe? >>>> >>>> >>>>I will get a new spark plug and test that. Can I just remove any plug >>>>wire, insert test plug and lay it on the upper intake manifold for >>>>testing purposes? >>>> >>>> >>>>>Check the spark at the plug end of the spark plug wire. The spark >>>>>should be able to jump at least 5/16" or 3/8". Do not get shocked, it >>>>>hurts. Compare the spark while cranking when it runs and when it does not. >>>> >>>> >>>>Is any LED lightbulb I would get at Radio Shack suitable? >>>> >>>> >>>>>To test the signal to the injectors, you could tap into the wires for >>>>>one of them and while cranking you should see the pulses, using a small >>>>>lamp, fast response voltmeter or an oscilloscope. A different way would >>>>>be having the ignition switch on while manually activating the >>>>>crankshaft pos and camshaft pos sensors and listening for clicks from >>>>>the injectors. >>>> >>>> >>>>Would I remove the throttle body and spray into the upper intake >>>>manifold then reattach the throttle body? >>>> >>>> >>>>>To bypass the injectors you could also spray some engine starting fluid >>>>>right past the throttle body and see if the engine tries to run. If it >>>>>does not, then you know the problem is electrical. >>>> >>>> >>>>As I had replaced the crankshaft position sensor (and coil pack) and >>>>no change I'm beginning to think your comment about fuel delivery may >>>>be the area where I need refocus. I'll do that after I do those items >>>>you mention above. >>>> >>>> >>>>>Remember that for the engine to run, the only critical sensors are the >>>>>crank and camshaft position sensors. >>>>> >>>>>Good luck! >>>> >>>>or a grenade :-) >>>> >>>>By the way, I appreciate your input. Thanks >>>> >>>> >>>>>J Adams wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:57:03 -0500, AS > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>I'm with you on that part, I think. There seems to be breakdown in one >>>>>>of these areas. Correct? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>You need an engine in acceptable conditions, fuel and ignition. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>If I take the RPMs up to 1500 it starts sputtering then dies. If I >>>>>>just let it idle, sputters once then dies. In both instances the >>>>>>running duration is about the same, roughly a minute >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>How does the car die? Slowly dropping rpms until it dies, stumbles, >>>>>>>sputters and dies, or all of the sudden. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>If I don't press the accelerator, no reaction. If I press the >>>>>>accelerator it trys to run, but only briefly, then no reaction. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>When do you try to restart the engine right after it does, does it sound >>>>>>>as if tried to run or just cranks without reaction? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>This is an unknown and I hadn't thought that particular aspect. BUT >>>>>>that might be the key. If that is the case, why would it start and >>>>>>then sputter and die after a brief time. The more I think about that >>>>>>point it seems to be more the issue. The pulsing light is steady even >>>>>>as it dies. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Is the spark strong enough? The magnetic pick up on the timing light >>>>>>>may trigger a signal even if the spark is not good enough to ignite the >>>>>>>mixture. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Yes, I double checked those. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Are all the engine grounds clean and tight? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>No, but when I try to restart the engine, if do it long enough, I can >>>>>>smell gas at the tail pipe. How do I check the signal, any >>>>>>suggestions? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Have you checked the signal to the fuel injectors? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Nothing could have gotten in the exhaust, it was in my garage. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Is it possible that while you replaced the engine something got into the >>>>>>>exhaust system and is blocking it? This would not explain having to >>>>>>>wait for an hour though. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Fuel pressure is 36psi. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>What is the fuel pressure you have? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Thanks, I need it at this point. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Good luck >>>>>>> >>>>>>>J Adams wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Forgot to mention; replaced fuel pump, fuel filter and air filter. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 20:29:26 GMT, J Adams > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>The saga continues.... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Recently rebuilt the upper engine new gaskets and had valves ground >>>>>>>>>replaced valve stem seals, heads ground, injectors cleaned and >>>>>>>>>replaced 2 lifters. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Put it all backs together and started first try. Purred like a kitten, >>>>>>>>>for a minute anyway. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Changed the oil, coolant,and plugs. New coolant temperture sensor and >>>>>>>>>purge valve solenoid, plus crakshaft position sensor. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Fuel pressure is good and steady. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Hooked up a timing light and pulsing light steady. Coil pack tested >>>>>>>>>within within range. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Had the Ignition Control Module tested at Autozone and tested OK 3 >>>>>>>>>times. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I start the car and it runs for about a minute and regardless of RPMs. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Hooked up Code Reader KOEO and get the following codes: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>111 -- All systems OK >>>>>>>>>10 -- Cylinder No. 1 low Cylinder balance test >>>>>>>>> (had compression test and OK) >>>>>>>>>211 -- Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) signal >>>>>>>>> (replaced CKP Crankshaft Position Sensor and no change) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>When the car dies it has to sit for an hour before it will start >>>>>>>>>again. If I crank it with the timing light hooked up the light pulse >>>>>>>>>is steady as well as the fuel pressure, but no start. While I'm trying >>>>>>>>>to burn up the starter :-) it will fire a couple of times and then >>>>>>>>>nothing, but the timing light pulses steady while cranking. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>HELP....... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Thanks Jim 
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#12
December 4th 07, 04:43 AM
posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.explorer
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94 Explorer VIN X V6 runs for a minute and dies
When do you hear the clicks?. I assume you hear them when cranking when
the car is dead. I would hook up the lamp just to see that it glows as bright when the car is running as when the car is cranking but dead. How old is the fuel in the gas tank? From your previous message, the car ran when you sprayed the cleaner. Can you keep the engine running indefinitely if you keep spraying the fluid into the open throttle body? Or does it die anyway. You would need a helper, or a remote starter . It is possible (is it likely?) that a bunch of dirt got to rail and got distributed to the injectors and that they are plugged, thus not allowing them to dispense the fuel? How difficult is it to pull out the injectors and examine them? I only suggest this because the engine ran when you sprayed the cleaner. When the spark plug gap is too wide, it could lead to lack of proper ignition, but with the spray test, the electrical seems to be ok. Did you use the spark tester? You might be interested in a clear spark plug to see the inside of the cylinder with the engine running. You can see the combustion and thus determine what is going on inside the cylinder, i.e. is it starving because of lack of fuel, or running rich because of lack of ignition or excess fuel? http://www.gadgetjq.com/ctune.htm Knowing that you had the burning of the coolant, anything is possible inside the exhaust pipe, carbon blockage, plugged cat, etc. etc. It does not sound that crazy to separate the cat from the exhaust pipe and see what happens. I think you are on the right track to solve your problem, almost there imho. Good luck! J Adams wrote: > On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 20:31:36 -0500, AS > wrote: > > >>Having tried the spray, it seems that your problem is the fuel system >>and for now we can forget about the rest. > > > On the rail at 30 psi > >>Do you have pressure fuel in the rail? You mentioned you measure it >>before but I am not sure if it was in the line or directly on the rail. > > > I used an automotive sethoscope and checked #1 and #2 and heard the > steady clicking. I should also note that #1 sounded weak compareded to > #2, but #1 is hard to get to so that I may not be getting onto the > metal body. > If I hear the clicking do I still need to do the lamp test? > >>Now that you have the lamp, you can try disconnecting one of the >>injectors and connecting the lamp in its place, or you could tap into >>the wires using sewing needles or pins. Prevent the two pins from >>touching each other. Hook the wires to the pins. Crank the engine and >>see if the lamp comes on and off as the engine cranks. The second way >>is more cumbersome but more realistic as well. > > > I agree about all six at once, unless there is a voltage drop that > would be too low to actuate the solenoid. > >>If you have pressure and you have the signal going to the injectors, and >>you have the spark (would be nice to see the timing of the injector and >>the spark) the fact that it comes on when you use the spray would then >>indicate that injectors are for some reason clogged, or stuck, but in my >>experience, for the 6 of them to fail at the same time would be an oddity. > > > Mine is not adjustable, plug and play... > >>Some of the crank position sensors Ford used are/were adjustable; not >>sure in your particular car. If your is not, then you are set. > > > Pulled 2 and they looked OK. > >>I now doubt that the plugs are fouled, but you can look at them and see >>that the insulator surrounding the center electrode is not look oily or >>black with lots of soot or deposits. > > > Just started reading the article and the beginning lists all of the > symptoms I'm experiencing and would make sense that as the engine > warms up the symptoms become exaggerated. Since I was probably burning > as much coolant as fuel that would certainly plug up the converter. > > Now that I have repaired the the combustion chamber issues as in > valves ground, new valve stem seals, head gasket, new plugs, etc. the > load on the converter would be greater and creating excessive back > pressure, if I'm reading this right. BUT why would it run so smooth > right after the rebuild progressively get worse with each additional > start the last couple of days. Of course having the car sit for a bit > (between starts) would allow the converter to cool down. I guess its > time to disconnect it and see what happens. > >>To check the cat converter, use this as reference: >>http://www.aa1car.com/library/converter.htm > > > The burning of coolant must have been going on after I had a severe > overheating issue a couple of years ago and now it may have finally > caught up with me. > > Hopefully, its the converter. At least the problem will be solved. > >>Good luck! >> >>J Adams wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 21:58:45 -0500, AS > wrote: >>> >>>If I find out what is causing it not to start would that likely also >>>identify the rough (missing) idle and rough running condition? I >>>should note here that car only got about 12MPG city and 16/17 hwy. I >>>read that I should get 15/17 city and 20 hwy. I'm not a lead foot, >>>well ocassionally maybe. >>> >>> >>>>Let's try and figure out what prevents the car from starting, electrical >>>>or fuel system. >>> >>> >>>Tried this with carb and choke cleaner >>> >>> >>>>So lets assume it is lack of fuel. You disconnect the air induction >>>>duct from the throttle body when the car is dead, have someone depress >>>>the gas pedal all the way (to open the throttle body) and then spray the >>>>starting fluid at the same time the other person cranks the engine. If >>>>the problem were lack of fuel, then it should start. >>> >>>I had to this by myself and quickly. >>>1) Removed air duct >>>2) Sprayed some into open throttle body >>>3) Tried to restart, no start. >>>4) Sprayed lots >>>5) Tried to restart, yes, briefly started >>>6) Sprayed lots more >>>7) Tried to restart, yes, briefly started and longer than #5 >>> This may have been more effective with another person helping >>>Should note here on second start I took it up to 3000RPMs and it ran >>>OK for a short time, 30 secs?, then started missing and died. Each >>>time I tried to restart after that no luck with the exceptions using >>>the carb cleaner. >>> >>> >>>>This brings to mind something else, it could be excess fuel, engine >>>>flooded. Opening the throttle completely and holding it there while >>>>cranking, and not spraying starting fluid would make it possible to start. >>> >>> >>>Bought 272-1099 and soldered on 18" extension so I could see when >>>attached to the injectors on the drivers side. What now? >>> >>> >>>>The injectors are 12v solenoid valves, with the positive always on (when >>>>the ignition is on) and the negative controlled by the computer. So in >>>>getting the lamp, you know it is 12 volts and need one that draws as lil >>>>current as possible. Radio Shack item 272-1099 would work fine due to >>>>the low current. Item 276-272 is a 12V LED assy. but you may need to >>>>observe the polarity. I would go with the lamps. >>> >>> >>>Doubled checked gap on installation at 52. Given the vehicle has never >>>ran more than a couple of minutes over a dozen or so attempts could >>>they be fouled? >>> >>> >>>>Are the spark plugs fouled? The gap properly adjusted? >>> >>> >>>Got an adjustable gap spark tester, but will have to wait for >>>assistant for trial (applies to injector test as well). >>> >>> >>>>I do not think you need a new spark plug to test the spark, just expose >>>>the terminal at the end of the wire or use a small rod that does just >>>>that. Get the rod close to the cylinder head when cranking the engine >>>>and test the spark. I would grab the boot on the wire with insulated >>>>pliers. Do not get the rod close to any electrical or electronic >>>>components, just the head and do not short it to the head, keep a gap. >>>> >>>>The water and black soot I would consider normal on a cold engine. >>> >>> >>>I didn't you could adjust the gap, the locating pin and bolts are a >>>pretty tight fit. With the old or new the result was the same. >>> >>> >>>>How did you adjust the gap of the crankshaft position sensor? >>>> >>> >>>Would this be the next step? >>> >>> >>>>Other than lots of noise, what happens if you detach the cat converter >>> >>>>from the exhaust pipe? >>> >>>No >>> >>> >>>>Was the engine burning oil? >>> >>> >>>How do I check for plugged cat conv? >>> >>> >>>>Could the cat be plugged? >>> >>> >>>I appreciate the offer, I'm in Tucson, Arizona >>> >>> >>>>Just out of curiosity, where in the world are u? If you are in south >>>>east FL i can give you a hand. >>>> >>> >>>Thanks for all your input. You have been very helpful. >>> >>> >>>>Again, good luck! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>J Adams wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 00:46:57 -0500, AS > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>There are a couple of other observations I should note: >>>>>The reason I began this project was the engine would have poor >>>>>acceleration (weak power) and missing then progressed to missing even >>>>>at a steady speed and sometimes die. But when it died it would restart >>>>>easily which is not the case now. >>>>>1) After rebuilding the first start the engine sounded perfect. >>>>>2) The engine had set for a week while I did the rebuild. >>>>>3) After each start (after rebuild) now it is running progressively >>>>>worse. It now is beginning to miss even at idle. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Because of the sputtering, I would imagine the problem being lack of >>>>>>fuel, but the fuel smell in the exhaust pipe when dead, kills this opinion. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>No, the fittings are different sizes >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Any chances of having the fuel rail fuel supply hose and return hose >>>>>>reversed? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Yes, also I notice quite a bit of condensation (water) below the >>>>>exhaust and black soot. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Any chance of kids, or rodents putting something in the exhaust pipe? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I will get a new spark plug and test that. Can I just remove any plug >>>>>wire, insert test plug and lay it on the upper intake manifold for >>>>>testing purposes? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Check the spark at the plug end of the spark plug wire. The spark >>>>>>should be able to jump at least 5/16" or 3/8". Do not get shocked, it >>>>>>hurts. Compare the spark while cranking when it runs and when it does not. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Is any LED lightbulb I would get at Radio Shack suitable? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>To test the signal to the injectors, you could tap into the wires for >>>>>>one of them and while cranking you should see the pulses, using a small >>>>>>lamp, fast response voltmeter or an oscilloscope. A different way would >>>>>>be having the ignition switch on while manually activating the >>>>>>crankshaft pos and camshaft pos sensors and listening for clicks from >>>>>>the injectors. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Would I remove the throttle body and spray into the upper intake >>>>>manifold then reattach the throttle body? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>To bypass the injectors you could also spray some engine starting fluid >>>>>>right past the throttle body and see if the engine tries to run. If it >>>>>>does not, then you know the problem is electrical. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>As I had replaced the crankshaft position sensor (and coil pack) and >>>>>no change I'm beginning to think your comment about fuel delivery may >>>>>be the area where I need refocus. I'll do that after I do those items >>>>>you mention above. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Remember that for the engine to run, the only critical sensors are the >>>>>>crank and camshaft position sensors. >>>>>> >>>>>>Good luck! >>>>> >>>>>or a grenade :-) >>>>> >>>>>By the way, I appreciate your input. Thanks >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>J Adams wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:57:03 -0500, AS > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I'm with you on that part, I think. There seems to be breakdown in one >>>>>>>of these areas. Correct? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>You need an engine in acceptable conditions, fuel and ignition. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If I take the RPMs up to 1500 it starts sputtering then dies. If I >>>>>>>just let it idle, sputters once then dies. In both instances the >>>>>>>running duration is about the same, roughly a minute >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>How does the car die? Slowly dropping rpms until it dies, stumbles, >>>>>>>>sputters and dies, or all of the sudden. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If I don't press the accelerator, no reaction. If I press the >>>>>>>accelerator it trys to run, but only briefly, then no reaction. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>When do you try to restart the engine right after it does, does it sound >>>>>>>>as if tried to run or just cranks without reaction? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>This is an unknown and I hadn't thought that particular aspect. BUT >>>>>>>that might be the key. If that is the case, why would it start and >>>>>>>then sputter and die after a brief time. The more I think about that >>>>>>>point it seems to be more the issue. The pulsing light is steady even >>>>>>>as it dies. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Is the spark strong enough? The magnetic pick up on the timing light >>>>>>>>may trigger a signal even if the spark is not good enough to ignite the >>>>>>>>mixture. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Yes, I double checked those. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Are all the engine grounds clean and tight? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>No, but when I try to restart the engine, if do it long enough, I can >>>>>>>smell gas at the tail pipe. How do I check the signal, any >>>>>>>suggestions? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Have you checked the signal to the fuel injectors? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Nothing could have gotten in the exhaust, it was in my garage. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Is it possible that while you replaced the engine something got into the >>>>>>>>exhaust system and is blocking it? This would not explain having to >>>>>>>>wait for an hour though. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Fuel pressure is 36psi. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>What is the fuel pressure you have? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Thanks, I need it at this point. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Good luck >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>J Adams wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Forgot to mention; replaced fuel pump, fuel filter and air filter. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 20:29:26 GMT, J Adams > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>The saga continues.... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Recently rebuilt the upper engine new gaskets and had valves ground >>>>>>>>>>replaced valve stem seals, heads ground, injectors cleaned and >>>>>>>>>>replaced 2 lifters. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Put it all backs together and started first try. Purred like a kitten, >>>>>>>>>>for a minute anyway. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Changed the oil, coolant,and plugs. New coolant temperture sensor and >>>>>>>>>>purge valve solenoid, plus crakshaft position sensor. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Fuel pressure is good and steady. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Hooked up a timing light and pulsing light steady. Coil pack tested >>>>>>>>>>within within range. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Had the Ignition Control Module tested at Autozone and tested OK 3 >>>>>>>>>>times. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I start the car and it runs for about a minute and regardless of RPMs. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Hooked up Code Reader KOEO and get the following codes: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>111 -- All systems OK >>>>>>>>>>10 -- Cylinder No. 1 low Cylinder balance test >>>>>>>>>> (had compression test and OK) >>>>>>>>>>211 -- Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) signal >>>>>>>>>> (replaced CKP Crankshaft Position Sensor and no change) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>When the car dies it has to sit for an hour before it will start >>>>>>>>>>again. If I crank it with the timing light hooked up the light pulse >>>>>>>>>>is steady as well as the fuel pressure, but no start. While I'm trying >>>>>>>>>>to burn up the starter :-) it will fire a couple of times and then >>>>>>>>>>nothing, but the timing light pulses steady while cranking. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>HELP....... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Thanks Jim
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#13
December 4th 07, 03:22 PM
posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.explorer
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94 Explorer VIN X V6 runs for a minute and dies
On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 23:43:20 -0500, AS > wrote:
I'm going to do this if the cat converter experiment fails. >When do you hear the clicks?. I assume you hear them when cranking when >the car is dead. I would hook up the lamp just to see that it glows as >bright when the car is running as when the car is cranking but dead. 3 weeks old >How old is the fuel in the gas tank? I tried that until flames shot out through the throttle body. It ran until the spray was used up in the intake manifold. > From your previous message, the car ran when you sprayed the cleaner. >Can you keep the engine running indefinitely if you keep spraying the >fluid into the open throttle body? Or does it die anyway. You would >need a helper, or a remote starter . Died anyway. No dirt could have gotten in. I cleaned everything again prior to assembly >It is possible (is it likely?) that a bunch of dirt got to rail and got >distributed to the injectors and that they are plugged, thus not >allowing them to dispense the fuel? How difficult is it to pull out the >injectors and examine them? I only suggest this because the engine ran >when you sprayed the cleaner. It would only run briefly when spraying the fluid, 5 to 10 seconds max > I will be doing this test today also. >When the spark plug gap is too wide, it could lead to lack of proper >ignition, but with the spray test, the electrical seems to be ok. Did >you use the spark tester? Cool tool. If the cat conv experiment doesn't work this morning then this looks like the next step. >You might be interested in a clear spark plug to see the inside of the >cylinder with the engine running. You can see the combustion and thus >determine what is going on inside the cylinder, i.e. is it starving >because of lack of fuel, or running rich because of lack of ignition or >excess fuel? http://www.gadgetjq.com/ctune.htm After reading the article you linked to and the symptoms the indications are certainly pointing to this, a plugged cat conv. I'm going to remove and the shop light test and if I can't light thru it that will give me a very good indication it is plugged and proceed to starting and see how long it runs and if it misses. If runs longer than 2 minutes and doesn't miss then the problem has been indentified. >Knowing that you had the burning of the coolant, anything is possible >inside the exhaust pipe, carbon blockage, plugged cat, etc. etc. It >does not sound that crazy to separate the cat from the exhaust pipe and >see what happens. I had the annual emissions inspection just prior to the problems and all of the values were significantly greater than in previous years. In each case the values were 2 to 4 times higher than last year, but still well below the limit. These numbers are insignificant but they did show a big spike from previous years. I agree, at least what it is not is definitely a step in the right direction. >I think you are on the right track to solve your problem, almost there >imho. Good luck! > >J Adams wrote: > >> On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 20:31:36 -0500, AS > wrote: >> >> >>>Having tried the spray, it seems that your problem is the fuel system >>>and for now we can forget about the rest. >> >> >> On the rail at 30 psi >> >>>Do you have pressure fuel in the rail? You mentioned you measure it >>>before but I am not sure if it was in the line or directly on the rail. >> >> >> I used an automotive sethoscope and checked #1 and #2 and heard the >> steady clicking. I should also note that #1 sounded weak compareded to >> #2, but #1 is hard to get to so that I may not be getting onto the >> metal body. >> If I hear the clicking do I still need to do the lamp test? >> >>>Now that you have the lamp, you can try disconnecting one of the >>>injectors and connecting the lamp in its place, or you could tap into >>>the wires using sewing needles or pins. Prevent the two pins from >>>touching each other. Hook the wires to the pins. Crank the engine and >>>see if the lamp comes on and off as the engine cranks. The second way >>>is more cumbersome but more realistic as well. >> >> >> I agree about all six at once, unless there is a voltage drop that >> would be too low to actuate the solenoid. >> >>>If you have pressure and you have the signal going to the injectors, and >>>you have the spark (would be nice to see the timing of the injector and >>>the spark) the fact that it comes on when you use the spray would then >>>indicate that injectors are for some reason clogged, or stuck, but in my >>>experience, for the 6 of them to fail at the same time would be an oddity. >> >> >> Mine is not adjustable, plug and play... >> >>>Some of the crank position sensors Ford used are/were adjustable; not >>>sure in your particular car. If your is not, then you are set. >> >> >> Pulled 2 and they looked OK. >> >>>I now doubt that the plugs are fouled, but you can look at them and see >>>that the insulator surrounding the center electrode is not look oily or >>>black with lots of soot or deposits. >> >> >> Just started reading the article and the beginning lists all of the >> symptoms I'm experiencing and would make sense that as the engine >> warms up the symptoms become exaggerated. Since I was probably burning >> as much coolant as fuel that would certainly plug up the converter. >> >> Now that I have repaired the the combustion chamber issues as in >> valves ground, new valve stem seals, head gasket, new plugs, etc. the >> load on the converter would be greater and creating excessive back >> pressure, if I'm reading this right. BUT why would it run so smooth >> right after the rebuild progressively get worse with each additional >> start the last couple of days. Of course having the car sit for a bit >> (between starts) would allow the converter to cool down. I guess its >> time to disconnect it and see what happens. >> >>>To check the cat converter, use this as reference: >>>http://www.aa1car.com/library/converter.htm >> >> >> The burning of coolant must have been going on after I had a severe >> overheating issue a couple of years ago and now it may have finally >> caught up with me. >> >> Hopefully, its the converter. At least the problem will be solved. >> >>>Good luck! >>> >>>J Adams wrote: >>> >>>>On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 21:58:45 -0500, AS > wrote: >>>> >>>>If I find out what is causing it not to start would that likely also >>>>identify the rough (missing) idle and rough running condition? I >>>>should note here that car only got about 12MPG city and 16/17 hwy. I >>>>read that I should get 15/17 city and 20 hwy. I'm not a lead foot, >>>>well ocassionally maybe. >>>> >>>> >>>>>Let's try and figure out what prevents the car from starting, electrical >>>>>or fuel system. >>>> >>>> >>>>Tried this with carb and choke cleaner >>>> >>>> >>>>>So lets assume it is lack of fuel. You disconnect the air induction >>>>>duct from the throttle body when the car is dead, have someone depress >>>>>the gas pedal all the way (to open the throttle body) and then spray the >>>>>starting fluid at the same time the other person cranks the engine. If >>>>>the problem were lack of fuel, then it should start. >>>> >>>>I had to this by myself and quickly. >>>>1) Removed air duct >>>>2) Sprayed some into open throttle body >>>>3) Tried to restart, no start. >>>>4) Sprayed lots >>>>5) Tried to restart, yes, briefly started >>>>6) Sprayed lots more >>>>7) Tried to restart, yes, briefly started and longer than #5 >>>> This may have been more effective with another person helping >>>>Should note here on second start I took it up to 3000RPMs and it ran >>>>OK for a short time, 30 secs?, then started missing and died. Each >>>>time I tried to restart after that no luck with the exceptions using >>>>the carb cleaner. >>>> >>>> >>>>>This brings to mind something else, it could be excess fuel, engine >>>>>flooded. Opening the throttle completely and holding it there while >>>>>cranking, and not spraying starting fluid would make it possible to start. >>>> >>>> >>>>Bought 272-1099 and soldered on 18" extension so I could see when >>>>attached to the injectors on the drivers side. What now? >>>> >>>> >>>>>The injectors are 12v solenoid valves, with the positive always on (when >>>>>the ignition is on) and the negative controlled by the computer. So in >>>>>getting the lamp, you know it is 12 volts and need one that draws as lil >>>>>current as possible. Radio Shack item 272-1099 would work fine due to >>>>>the low current. Item 276-272 is a 12V LED assy. but you may need to >>>>>observe the polarity. I would go with the lamps. >>>> >>>> >>>>Doubled checked gap on installation at 52. Given the vehicle has never >>>>ran more than a couple of minutes over a dozen or so attempts could >>>>they be fouled? >>>> >>>> >>>>>Are the spark plugs fouled? The gap properly adjusted? >>>> >>>> >>>>Got an adjustable gap spark tester, but will have to wait for >>>>assistant for trial (applies to injector test as well). >>>> >>>> >>>>>I do not think you need a new spark plug to test the spark, just expose >>>>>the terminal at the end of the wire or use a small rod that does just >>>>>that. Get the rod close to the cylinder head when cranking the engine >>>>>and test the spark. I would grab the boot on the wire with insulated >>>>>pliers. Do not get the rod close to any electrical or electronic >>>>>components, just the head and do not short it to the head, keep a gap. >>>>> >>>>>The water and black soot I would consider normal on a cold engine. >>>> >>>> >>>>I didn't you could adjust the gap, the locating pin and bolts are a >>>>pretty tight fit. With the old or new the result was the same. >>>> >>>> >>>>>How did you adjust the gap of the crankshaft position sensor? >>>>> >>>> >>>>Would this be the next step? >>>> >>>> >>>>>Other than lots of noise, what happens if you detach the cat converter >>>> >>>>>from the exhaust pipe? >>>> >>>>No >>>> >>>> >>>>>Was the engine burning oil? >>>> >>>> >>>>How do I check for plugged cat conv? >>>> >>>> >>>>>Could the cat be plugged? >>>> >>>> >>>>I appreciate the offer, I'm in Tucson, Arizona >>>> >>>> >>>>>Just out of curiosity, where in the world are u? If you are in south >>>>>east FL i can give you a hand. >>>>> >>>> >>>>Thanks for all your input. You have been very helpful. >>>> >>>> >>>>>Again, good luck! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>J Adams wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 00:46:57 -0500, AS > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>There are a couple of other observations I should note: >>>>>>The reason I began this project was the engine would have poor >>>>>>acceleration (weak power) and missing then progressed to missing even >>>>>>at a steady speed and sometimes die. But when it died it would restart >>>>>>easily which is not the case now. >>>>>>1) After rebuilding the first start the engine sounded perfect. >>>>>>2) The engine had set for a week while I did the rebuild. >>>>>>3) After each start (after rebuild) now it is running progressively >>>>>>worse. It now is beginning to miss even at idle. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Because of the sputtering, I would imagine the problem being lack of >>>>>>>fuel, but the fuel smell in the exhaust pipe when dead, kills this opinion. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>No, the fittings are different sizes >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Any chances of having the fuel rail fuel supply hose and return hose >>>>>>>reversed? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Yes, also I notice quite a bit of condensation (water) below the >>>>>>exhaust and black soot. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Any chance of kids, or rodents putting something in the exhaust pipe? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I will get a new spark plug and test that. Can I just remove any plug >>>>>>wire, insert test plug and lay it on the upper intake manifold for >>>>>>testing purposes? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Check the spark at the plug end of the spark plug wire. The spark >>>>>>>should be able to jump at least 5/16" or 3/8". Do not get shocked, it >>>>>>>hurts. Compare the spark while cranking when it runs and when it does not. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Is any LED lightbulb I would get at Radio Shack suitable? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>To test the signal to the injectors, you could tap into the wires for >>>>>>>one of them and while cranking you should see the pulses, using a small >>>>>>>lamp, fast response voltmeter or an oscilloscope. A different way would >>>>>>>be having the ignition switch on while manually activating the >>>>>>>crankshaft pos and camshaft pos sensors and listening for clicks from >>>>>>>the injectors. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Would I remove the throttle body and spray into the upper intake >>>>>>manifold then reattach the throttle body? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>To bypass the injectors you could also spray some engine starting fluid >>>>>>>right past the throttle body and see if the engine tries to run. If it >>>>>>>does not, then you know the problem is electrical. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>As I had replaced the crankshaft position sensor (and coil pack) and >>>>>>no change I'm beginning to think your comment about fuel delivery may >>>>>>be the area where I need refocus. I'll do that after I do those items >>>>>>you mention above. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Remember that for the engine to run, the only critical sensors are the >>>>>>>crank and camshaft position sensors. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Good luck! >>>>>> >>>>>>or a grenade :-) >>>>>> >>>>>>By the way, I appreciate your input. Thanks >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>J Adams wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:57:03 -0500, AS > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I'm with you on that part, I think. There seems to be breakdown in one >>>>>>>>of these areas. Correct? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>You need an engine in acceptable conditions, fuel and ignition. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>If I take the RPMs up to 1500 it starts sputtering then dies. If I >>>>>>>>just let it idle, sputters once then dies. In both instances the >>>>>>>>running duration is about the same, roughly a minute >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>How does the car die? Slowly dropping rpms until it dies, stumbles, >>>>>>>>>sputters and dies, or all of the sudden. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>If I don't press the accelerator, no reaction. If I press the >>>>>>>>accelerator it trys to run, but only briefly, then no reaction. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>When do you try to restart the engine right after it does, does it sound >>>>>>>>>as if tried to run or just cranks without reaction? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>This is an unknown and I hadn't thought that particular aspect. BUT >>>>>>>>that might be the key. If that is the case, why would it start and >>>>>>>>then sputter and die after a brief time. The more I think about that >>>>>>>>point it seems to be more the issue. The pulsing light is steady even >>>>>>>>as it dies. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Is the spark strong enough? The magnetic pick up on the timing light >>>>>>>>>may trigger a signal even if the spark is not good enough to ignite the >>>>>>>>>mixture. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Yes, I double checked those. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Are all the engine grounds clean and tight? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>No, but when I try to restart the engine, if do it long enough, I can >>>>>>>>smell gas at the tail pipe. How do I check the signal, any >>>>>>>>suggestions? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Have you checked the signal to the fuel injectors? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Nothing could have gotten in the exhaust, it was in my garage. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Is it possible that while you replaced the engine something got into the >>>>>>>>>exhaust system and is blocking it? This would not explain having to >>>>>>>>>wait for an hour though. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Fuel pressure is 36psi. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>What is the fuel pressure you have? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Thanks, I need it at this point. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Good luck >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>J Adams wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Forgot to mention; replaced fuel pump, fuel filter and air filter. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 20:29:26 GMT, J Adams > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>The saga continues.... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Recently rebuilt the upper engine new gaskets and had valves ground >>>>>>>>>>>replaced valve stem seals, heads ground, injectors cleaned and >>>>>>>>>>>replaced 2 lifters. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Put it all backs together and started first try. Purred like a kitten, >>>>>>>>>>>for a minute anyway. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Changed the oil, coolant,and plugs. New coolant temperture sensor and >>>>>>>>>>>purge valve solenoid, plus crakshaft position sensor. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Fuel pressure is good and steady. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Hooked up a timing light and pulsing light steady. Coil pack tested >>>>>>>>>>>within within range. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Had the Ignition Control Module tested at Autozone and tested OK 3 >>>>>>>>>>>times. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I start the car and it runs for about a minute and regardless of RPMs. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Hooked up Code Reader KOEO and get the following codes: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>111 -- All systems OK >>>>>>>>>>>10 -- Cylinder No. 1 low Cylinder balance test >>>>>>>>>>> (had compression test and OK) >>>>>>>>>>>211 -- Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) signal >>>>>>>>>>> (replaced CKP Crankshaft Position Sensor and no change) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>When the car dies it has to sit for an hour before it will start >>>>>>>>>>>again. If I crank it with the timing light hooked up the light pulse >>>>>>>>>>>is steady as well as the fuel pressure, but no start. While I'm trying >>>>>>>>>>>to burn up the starter :-) it will fire a couple of times and then >>>>>>>>>>>nothing, but the timing light pulses steady while cranking. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>HELP....... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Thanks Jim
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#14
December 5th 07, 03:31 AM
posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.explorer
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94 Explorer VIN X V6 runs for a minute and dies
On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 23:43:20 -0500, AS > wrote:
Some of these I answered in the earlier post. This one is moving up the priority list >When do you hear the clicks?. I assume you hear them when cranking when >the car is dead. I would hook up the lamp just to see that it glows as >bright when the car is running as when the car is cranking but dead. 3 weeks old >How old is the fuel in the gas tank? I tried that until flames shot out through the throttle body. It ran until the spray was used up in the intake manifold. > From your previous message, the car ran when you sprayed the cleaner. >Can you keep the engine running indefinitely if you keep spraying the >fluid into the open throttle body? Or does it die anyway. You would >need a helper, or a remote starter . Died anyway. No dirt could have gotten in. I cleaned everything again prior to assembly >It is possible (is it likely?) that a bunch of dirt got to rail and got >distributed to the injectors and that they are plugged, thus not >allowing them to dispense the fuel? How difficult is it to pull out the >injectors and examine them? I only suggest this because the engine ran >when you sprayed the cleaner. It would only run briefly when spraying the fluid, 5 to 10 seconds max. I used the spark tester set at 5/16' and the spark was consistent (Blue at the tips) when running and when the car wouldn't start >When the spark plug gap is too wide, it could lead to lack of proper >ignition, but with the spray test, the electrical seems to be ok. Did >you use the spark tester? >You might be interested in a clear spark plug to see the inside of the >cylinder with the engine running. You can see the combustion and thus >determine what is going on inside the cylinder, i.e. is it starving >because of lack of fuel, or running rich because of lack of ignition or >excess fuel? http://www.gadgetjq.com/ctune.htm Separated the cat conv and it ran worse. It doesn't appear to be the problem. Did the visual comparison with a new one from Autozone per the article you suggested and they were identical. >Knowing that you had the burning of the coolant, anything is possible >inside the exhaust pipe, carbon blockage, plugged cat, etc. etc. It >does not sound that crazy to separate the cat from the exhaust pipe and >see what happens. Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves the injectors, what do you think? Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test. 111 system pass 10 cylinder #1 problem 111 system pass >I think you are on the right track to solve your problem, almost there >imho. Good luck! > >J Adams wrote: > >> On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 20:31:36 -0500, AS > wrote: >> >> >>>Having tried the spray, it seems that your problem is the fuel system >>>and for now we can forget about the rest. >> >> >> On the rail at 30 psi >> >>>Do you have pressure fuel in the rail? You mentioned you measure it >>>before but I am not sure if it was in the line or directly on the rail. >> >> >> I used an automotive sethoscope and checked #1 and #2 and heard the >> steady clicking. I should also note that #1 sounded weak compareded to >> #2, but #1 is hard to get to so that I may not be getting onto the >> metal body. >> If I hear the clicking do I still need to do the lamp test? >> >>>Now that you have the lamp, you can try disconnecting one of the >>>injectors and connecting the lamp in its place, or you could tap into >>>the wires using sewing needles or pins. Prevent the two pins from >>>touching each other. Hook the wires to the pins. Crank the engine and >>>see if the lamp comes on and off as the engine cranks. The second way >>>is more cumbersome but more realistic as well. >> >> >> I agree about all six at once, unless there is a voltage drop that >> would be too low to actuate the solenoid. >> >>>If you have pressure and you have the signal going to the injectors, and >>>you have the spark (would be nice to see the timing of the injector and >>>the spark) the fact that it comes on when you use the spray would then >>>indicate that injectors are for some reason clogged, or stuck, but in my >>>experience, for the 6 of them to fail at the same time would be an oddity. >> >> >> Mine is not adjustable, plug and play... >> >>>Some of the crank position sensors Ford used are/were adjustable; not >>>sure in your particular car. If your is not, then you are set. >> >> >> Pulled 2 and they looked OK. >> >>>I now doubt that the plugs are fouled, but you can look at them and see >>>that the insulator surrounding the center electrode is not look oily or >>>black with lots of soot or deposits. >> >> >> Just started reading the article and the beginning lists all of the >> symptoms I'm experiencing and would make sense that as the engine >> warms up the symptoms become exaggerated. Since I was probably burning >> as much coolant as fuel that would certainly plug up the converter. >> >> Now that I have repaired the the combustion chamber issues as in >> valves ground, new valve stem seals, head gasket, new plugs, etc. the >> load on the converter would be greater and creating excessive back >> pressure, if I'm reading this right. BUT why would it run so smooth >> right after the rebuild progressively get worse with each additional >> start the last couple of days. Of course having the car sit for a bit >> (between starts) would allow the converter to cool down. I guess its >> time to disconnect it and see what happens. >> >>>To check the cat converter, use this as reference: >>>http://www.aa1car.com/library/converter.htm >> >> >> The burning of coolant must have been going on after I had a severe >> overheating issue a couple of years ago and now it may have finally >> caught up with me. >> >> Hopefully, its the converter. At least the problem will be solved. >> >>>Good luck! >>> >>>J Adams wrote: >>> >>>>On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 21:58:45 -0500, AS > wrote: >>>> >>>>If I find out what is causing it not to start would that likely also >>>>identify the rough (missing) idle and rough running condition? I >>>>should note here that car only got about 12MPG city and 16/17 hwy. I >>>>read that I should get 15/17 city and 20 hwy. I'm not a lead foot, >>>>well ocassionally maybe. >>>> >>>> >>>>>Let's try and figure out what prevents the car from starting, electrical >>>>>or fuel system. >>>> >>>> >>>>Tried this with carb and choke cleaner >>>> >>>> >>>>>So lets assume it is lack of fuel. You disconnect the air induction >>>>>duct from the throttle body when the car is dead, have someone depress >>>>>the gas pedal all the way (to open the throttle body) and then spray the >>>>>starting fluid at the same time the other person cranks the engine. If >>>>>the problem were lack of fuel, then it should start. >>>> >>>>I had to this by myself and quickly. >>>>1) Removed air duct >>>>2) Sprayed some into open throttle body >>>>3) Tried to restart, no start. >>>>4) Sprayed lots >>>>5) Tried to restart, yes, briefly started >>>>6) Sprayed lots more >>>>7) Tried to restart, yes, briefly started and longer than #5 >>>> This may have been more effective with another person helping >>>>Should note here on second start I took it up to 3000RPMs and it ran >>>>OK for a short time, 30 secs?, then started missing and died. Each >>>>time I tried to restart after that no luck with the exceptions using >>>>the carb cleaner. >>>> >>>> >>>>>This brings to mind something else, it could be excess fuel, engine >>>>>flooded. Opening the throttle completely and holding it there while >>>>>cranking, and not spraying starting fluid would make it possible to start. >>>> >>>> >>>>Bought 272-1099 and soldered on 18" extension so I could see when >>>>attached to the injectors on the drivers side. What now? >>>> >>>> >>>>>The injectors are 12v solenoid valves, with the positive always on (when >>>>>the ignition is on) and the negative controlled by the computer. So in >>>>>getting the lamp, you know it is 12 volts and need one that draws as lil >>>>>current as possible. Radio Shack item 272-1099 would work fine due to >>>>>the low current. Item 276-272 is a 12V LED assy. but you may need to >>>>>observe the polarity. I would go with the lamps. >>>> >>>> >>>>Doubled checked gap on installation at 52. Given the vehicle has never >>>>ran more than a couple of minutes over a dozen or so attempts could >>>>they be fouled? >>>> >>>> >>>>>Are the spark plugs fouled? The gap properly adjusted? >>>> >>>> >>>>Got an adjustable gap spark tester, but will have to wait for >>>>assistant for trial (applies to injector test as well). >>>> >>>> >>>>>I do not think you need a new spark plug to test the spark, just expose >>>>>the terminal at the end of the wire or use a small rod that does just >>>>>that. Get the rod close to the cylinder head when cranking the engine >>>>>and test the spark. I would grab the boot on the wire with insulated >>>>>pliers. Do not get the rod close to any electrical or electronic >>>>>components, just the head and do not short it to the head, keep a gap. >>>>> >>>>>The water and black soot I would consider normal on a cold engine. >>>> >>>> >>>>I didn't you could adjust the gap, the locating pin and bolts are a >>>>pretty tight fit. With the old or new the result was the same. >>>> >>>> >>>>>How did you adjust the gap of the crankshaft position sensor? >>>>> >>>> >>>>Would this be the next step? >>>> >>>> >>>>>Other than lots of noise, what happens if you detach the cat converter >>>> >>>>>from the exhaust pipe? >>>> >>>>No >>>> >>>> >>>>>Was the engine burning oil? >>>> >>>> >>>>How do I check for plugged cat conv? >>>> >>>> >>>>>Could the cat be plugged? >>>> >>>> >>>>I appreciate the offer, I'm in Tucson, Arizona >>>> >>>> >>>>>Just out of curiosity, where in the world are u? If you are in south >>>>>east FL i can give you a hand. >>>>> >>>> >>>>Thanks for all your input. You have been very helpful. >>>> >>>> >>>>>Again, good luck! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>J Adams wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 00:46:57 -0500, AS > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>There are a couple of other observations I should note: >>>>>>The reason I began this project was the engine would have poor >>>>>>acceleration (weak power) and missing then progressed to missing even >>>>>>at a steady speed and sometimes die. But when it died it would restart >>>>>>easily which is not the case now. >>>>>>1) After rebuilding the first start the engine sounded perfect. >>>>>>2) The engine had set for a week while I did the rebuild. >>>>>>3) After each start (after rebuild) now it is running progressively >>>>>>worse. It now is beginning to miss even at idle. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Because of the sputtering, I would imagine the problem being lack of >>>>>>>fuel, but the fuel smell in the exhaust pipe when dead, kills this opinion. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>No, the fittings are different sizes >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Any chances of having the fuel rail fuel supply hose and return hose >>>>>>>reversed? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Yes, also I notice quite a bit of condensation (water) below the >>>>>>exhaust and black soot. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Any chance of kids, or rodents putting something in the exhaust pipe? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I will get a new spark plug and test that. Can I just remove any plug >>>>>>wire, insert test plug and lay it on the upper intake manifold for >>>>>>testing purposes? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Check the spark at the plug end of the spark plug wire. The spark >>>>>>>should be able to jump at least 5/16" or 3/8". Do not get shocked, it >>>>>>>hurts. Compare the spark while cranking when it runs and when it does not. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Is any LED lightbulb I would get at Radio Shack suitable? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>To test the signal to the injectors, you could tap into the wires for >>>>>>>one of them and while cranking you should see the pulses, using a small >>>>>>>lamp, fast response voltmeter or an oscilloscope. A different way would >>>>>>>be having the ignition switch on while manually activating the >>>>>>>crankshaft pos and camshaft pos sensors and listening for clicks from >>>>>>>the injectors. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Would I remove the throttle body and spray into the upper intake >>>>>>manifold then reattach the throttle body? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>To bypass the injectors you could also spray some engine starting fluid >>>>>>>right past the throttle body and see if the engine tries to run. If it >>>>>>>does not, then you know the problem is electrical. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>As I had replaced the crankshaft position sensor (and coil pack) and >>>>>>no change I'm beginning to think your comment about fuel delivery may >>>>>>be the area where I need refocus. I'll do that after I do those items >>>>>>you mention above. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Remember that for the engine to run, the only critical sensors are the >>>>>>>crank and camshaft position sensors. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Good luck! >>>>>> >>>>>>or a grenade :-) >>>>>> >>>>>>By the way, I appreciate your input. Thanks >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>J Adams wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:57:03 -0500, AS > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I'm with you on that part, I think. There seems to be breakdown in one >>>>>>>>of these areas. Correct? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>You need an engine in acceptable conditions, fuel and ignition. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>If I take the RPMs up to 1500 it starts sputtering then dies. If I >>>>>>>>just let it idle, sputters once then dies. In both instances the >>>>>>>>running duration is about the same, roughly a minute >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>How does the car die? Slowly dropping rpms until it dies, stumbles, >>>>>>>>>sputters and dies, or all of the sudden. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>If I don't press the accelerator, no reaction. If I press the >>>>>>>>accelerator it trys to run, but only briefly, then no reaction. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>When do you try to restart the engine right after it does, does it sound >>>>>>>>>as if tried to run or just cranks without reaction? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>This is an unknown and I hadn't thought that particular aspect. BUT >>>>>>>>that might be the key. If that is the case, why would it start and >>>>>>>>then sputter and die after a brief time. The more I think about that >>>>>>>>point it seems to be more the issue. The pulsing light is steady even >>>>>>>>as it dies. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Is the spark strong enough? The magnetic pick up on the timing light >>>>>>>>>may trigger a signal even if the spark is not good enough to ignite the >>>>>>>>>mixture. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Yes, I double checked those. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Are all the engine grounds clean and tight? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>No, but when I try to restart the engine, if do it long enough, I can >>>>>>>>smell gas at the tail pipe. How do I check the signal, any >>>>>>>>suggestions? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Have you checked the signal to the fuel injectors? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Nothing could have gotten in the exhaust, it was in my garage. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Is it possible that while you replaced the engine something got into the >>>>>>>>>exhaust system and is blocking it? This would not explain having to >>>>>>>>>wait for an hour though. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Fuel pressure is 36psi. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>What is the fuel pressure you have? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Thanks, I need it at this point. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Good luck >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>J Adams wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Forgot to mention; replaced fuel pump, fuel filter and air filter. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 20:29:26 GMT, J Adams > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>The saga continues.... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Recently rebuilt the upper engine new gaskets and had valves ground >>>>>>>>>>>replaced valve stem seals, heads ground, injectors cleaned and >>>>>>>>>>>replaced 2 lifters. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Put it all backs together and started first try. Purred like a kitten, >>>>>>>>>>>for a minute anyway. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Changed the oil, coolant,and plugs. New coolant temperture sensor and >>>>>>>>>>>purge valve solenoid, plus crakshaft position sensor. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Fuel pressure is good and steady. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Hooked up a timing light and pulsing light steady. Coil pack tested >>>>>>>>>>>within within range. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Had the Ignition Control Module tested at Autozone and tested OK 3 >>>>>>>>>>>times. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I start the car and it runs for about a minute and regardless of RPMs. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Hooked up Code Reader KOEO and get the following codes: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>111 -- All systems OK >>>>>>>>>>>10 -- Cylinder No. 1 low Cylinder balance test >>>>>>>>>>> (had compression test and OK) >>>>>>>>>>>211 -- Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) signal >>>>>>>>>>> (replaced CKP Crankshaft Position Sensor and no change) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>When the car dies it has to sit for an hour before it will start >>>>>>>>>>>again. If I crank it with the timing light hooked up the light pulse >>>>>>>>>>>is steady as well as the fuel pressure, but no start. While I'm trying >>>>>>>>>>>to burn up the starter :-) it will fire a couple of times and then >>>>>>>>>>>nothing, but the timing light pulses steady while cranking. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>HELP....... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Thanks Jim
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#15
December 5th 07, 03:38 PM
posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.explorer
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94 Explorer VIN X V6 runs for a minute and dies
On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 02:34:46 GMT, J Adams > wrote:
>On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 21:58:45 -0500, AS > wrote: > >>Let's try and figure out what prevents the car from starting, electrical >>or fuel system. On the injectors I attached the NOID light. When I used the NOID light after the no start situation begins it was very bright occasionally (each first attempt only) and pulse (weakly compared to first flash) but not consistently. I would assume the light light would pulse/flash consistently while cranking. Unfortunately, I did not do this test with the running and will now have to wait a while to be able to start it. I don't know if this is significant, just thought I would mention it because when I did the spark test it was consistent. >Just stuck a automotive stethoscope on injector 1 and could here a >steady click that varied according to the fluctuating RPMs. The reason >I chose #1 is the KOEO error code, 10, for Cylinder #1. >>The injectors are 12v solenoid valves, with the positive always on (when >>the ignition is on) and the negative controlled by the computer. So in >>getting the lamp, you know it is 12 volts and need one that draws as lil >>current as possible. Radio Shack item 272-1099 would work fine due to >>the low current. Item 276-272 is a 12V LED assy. but you may need to >>observe the polarity. I would go with the lamps. > I used the spark tester set at 5/16' and the spark was consistent (Blue at the tips) when running and when the car wouldn't start >When the spark plug gap is too wide, it could lead to lack of proper >ignition, but with the spray test, the electrical seems to be ok. Did >you use the spark tester? Separated the cat conv and it ran worse. It doesn't appear to be the problem. Did the visual comparison with a new one from Autozone per the article you suggested and they were identical. >Knowing that you had the burning of the coolant, anything is possible >inside the exhaust pipe, carbon blockage, plugged cat, etc. etc. It >does not sound that crazy to separate the cat from the exhaust pipe and >see what happens. Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves the injectors, what do you think? Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test. 111 system pass 10 cylinder #1 problem 111 system pass
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#16
December 6th 07, 04:09 AM
posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.explorer
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94 Explorer VIN X V6 runs for a minute and dies
> > Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow > New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves > the injectors, what do you think? > Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test. According to my Haynes, pressure should be 35-45 with engine not running and 30-35 with engine running. Sounds like yours is low?? Injected engines don't like it when pressure isn't up to snuff. dave
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#17
December 6th 07, 03:30 PM
posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.explorer
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94 Explorer VIN X V6 runs for a minute and dies
On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:09:51 -0600, "Hairy" > wrote:
Hi Dave That was my first guess, but after 3 fuel pumps in 8 months the Haynes book is wrong, per Ford 30-45 is the correct range. The first fuel pump was actually bad, but that's another story. Turns out per AS suggestion of using the test light on the injectors I have either a shorted wire in the CKP circuit or a bad PCM. So now I'm tracing the wires in the CKP circuit and if I don't find anything there it leaves the PCM, which I assume from my reading is how 'they' determine the PCM is bad. When the car was running and the injector test was hooked up when the engine started missing so did the light. If the light was missing then the problem became electrical. This is cutting off the power to the injectors and no fuel, hence the stalling. It didn't help that I was flooding it trying to restart it. If it had not been for AS help I would throwing a grenade in the engine compartment. He was correct in refocusing on the process of electrical and fuel. So heres what happened. 1) Test for spark and condition of spark 2) Test for fuel delivery. 3) When I sprayed starting fluid it would start (briefly) 4) Listened to injector while and continued while missing started and it began dying. Heard a missing in the injector as well as the hearing the coughing and sputtering from the engine. 5) Hooked up test light to the injector and light pulsed steady until missing began, then the light missed as well. ****Problem is electrical in the CKP circuit or PCM is bad. As PCMs rarely ever go bad the problem is probably in the CKP circuit. Those are the only two things that control the injectors and the PCM has direct control over the injectors. So if the there is no wiring problem in the CKP circuit the only thing left is the PCM. BUT, today I begin the wiring harnesses inspection process, so we'll see..... > >> >> Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow >> New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves >> the injectors, what do you think? >> Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test. > >According to my Haynes, pressure should be 35-45 with engine not running and >30-35 with engine running. Sounds like yours is low?? Injected engines don't >like it when pressure isn't up to snuff. > >dave >
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#18
December 6th 07, 11:47 PM
posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.explorer
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94 Explorer VIN X V6 runs for a minute and dies
The code for cylinder one leads me to believe the problem could be the
camshaft position sensor. I doubt the CKP is defective because you have spark and the car ran when you sprayed the starting fluid. Good luck, Alex J Adams wrote: > On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:09:51 -0600, "Hairy" > wrote: > > Hi Dave > > That was my first guess, but after 3 fuel pumps in 8 months the Haynes > book is wrong, per Ford 30-45 is the correct range. The first fuel > pump was actually bad, but that's another story. Turns out per AS > suggestion of using the test light on the injectors I have either a > shorted wire in the CKP circuit or a bad PCM. So now I'm tracing the > wires in the CKP circuit and if I don't find anything there it leaves > the PCM, which I assume from my reading is how 'they' determine the > PCM is bad. > > When the car was running and the injector test was hooked up when the > engine started missing so did the light. If the light was missing then > the problem became electrical. This is cutting off the power to the > injectors and no fuel, hence the stalling. It didn't help that I was > flooding it trying to restart it. > > If it had not been for AS help I would throwing a grenade in the > engine compartment. He was correct in refocusing on the process of > electrical and fuel. So heres what happened. > 1) Test for spark and condition of spark > 2) Test for fuel delivery. > 3) When I sprayed starting fluid it would start (briefly) > 4) Listened to injector while and continued while missing started and > it began dying. Heard a missing in the injector as well as the hearing > the coughing and sputtering from the engine. > 5) Hooked up test light to the injector and light pulsed steady until > missing began, then the light missed as well. > > ****Problem is electrical in the CKP circuit or PCM is bad. As PCMs > rarely ever go bad the problem is probably in the CKP circuit. Those > are the only two things that control the injectors and the PCM has > direct control over the injectors. So if the there is no wiring > problem in the CKP circuit the only thing left is the PCM. > > BUT, today I begin the wiring harnesses inspection process, so we'll > see..... > >>>Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow >>>New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves >>>the injectors, what do you think? >>>Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test. >> >>According to my Haynes, pressure should be 35-45 with engine not running and >>30-35 with engine running. Sounds like yours is low?? Injected engines don't >>like it when pressure isn't up to snuff. >> >>dave >>
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#19
December 7th 07, 02:17 AM
posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.explorer
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94 Explorer VIN X V6 runs for a minute and dies
On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:47:04 -0500, AS > wrote:
>The code for cylinder one leads me to believe the problem could be the >camshaft position sensor. Hi Alex I found out the #10 is displayed as a seperator code. Which is why I get 111 system pass 10 cylinder one 111 system pass thought it was odd to get 111 after getting 10. If I got 111, 10, 111, 10 then it would indicate a cylinder #1 problem, of course I probably wouldn't get a 111 either by that reasoning. Since you pointed me in the right direction. When I kept getting the KOEO 211 code (though only after a running engine), PIP signal, which would indicate the CKP. Replaced CKP and traced the wiring plus tested it for shorts or open circuit. I would never get a 211 code if I did the KOEO test then cleared the memory and reran the KOEO test. I did the spark test and it was consistent even as the car was dying. The injector test light was different it would miss, pulsing light erratic in time engine missing/stalling. The only thing controlling the injectors is the PCM. The camshaft sensor provides information to the PCM so it can timing information for the injectors and the ICM for spark timing. At least that's my interpretation, am I wrong on that? If it was the camshaft sensor would I get a consistent and steady spark and have the injector test light fluctuate doesn't that indicate the PCM is bad? Now that I'm reading this I did not test injector with test light and spark simultaneously. If I get steady spark and intermittent light pulses coinciding with missing/stalling wouldn't that point to the PCM. It doesn't rule the CMS out, but wouldn't begin pointing more towards the PCM. By the way I've found quite a few uses for that test light with other circuits. >I doubt the CKP is defective because you have spark and the car ran when >you sprayed the starting fluid. > >Good luck, > >Alex > >J Adams wrote: >> On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:09:51 -0600, "Hairy" > wrote: >> >> Hi Dave >> >> That was my first guess, but after 3 fuel pumps in 8 months the Haynes >> book is wrong, per Ford 30-45 is the correct range. The first fuel >> pump was actually bad, but that's another story. Turns out per AS >> suggestion of using the test light on the injectors I have either a >> shorted wire in the CKP circuit or a bad PCM. So now I'm tracing the >> wires in the CKP circuit and if I don't find anything there it leaves >> the PCM, which I assume from my reading is how 'they' determine the >> PCM is bad. >> >> When the car was running and the injector test was hooked up when the >> engine started missing so did the light. If the light was missing then >> the problem became electrical. This is cutting off the power to the >> injectors and no fuel, hence the stalling. It didn't help that I was >> flooding it trying to restart it. >> >> If it had not been for AS help I would throwing a grenade in the >> engine compartment. He was correct in refocusing on the process of >> electrical and fuel. So heres what happened. >> 1) Test for spark and condition of spark >> 2) Test for fuel delivery. >> 3) When I sprayed starting fluid it would start (briefly) >> 4) Listened to injector while and continued while missing started and >> it began dying. Heard a missing in the injector as well as the hearing >> the coughing and sputtering from the engine. >> 5) Hooked up test light to the injector and light pulsed steady until >> missing began, then the light missed as well. >> >> ****Problem is electrical in the CKP circuit or PCM is bad. As PCMs >> rarely ever go bad the problem is probably in the CKP circuit. Those >> are the only two things that control the injectors and the PCM has >> direct control over the injectors. So if the there is no wiring >> problem in the CKP circuit the only thing left is the PCM. >> >> BUT, today I begin the wiring harnesses inspection process, so we'll >> see..... >> >>>>Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow >>>>New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves >>>>the injectors, what do you think? >>>>Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test. >>> >>>According to my Haynes, pressure should be 35-45 with engine not running and >>>30-35 with engine running. Sounds like yours is low?? Injected engines don't >>>like it when pressure isn't up to snuff. >>> >>>dave >>>
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#20
December 7th 07, 04:06 AM
posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.explorer
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94 Explorer VIN X V6 runs for a minute and dies
The camshaft position sensor tells the PCM when cylinder one goes into
compression (the CKP cannot distinguish this). The camshaft pos sensor identifies cylinder one, and then, it the PCM sends signal to the right injector. The camshaft pos sensor is crucial for injector control. Given the design of the coil pack, the crankshaft position sensor is only used for ignition control and it always sends spark to two cylinders simultaneously, one cylinder at compression and the other one at exhaust. Check the camshaft pos sensor, that one could be the problem. I am glad the light is working for you.  Good luck, though i think you already found your problem in the camshaft pos sensor or the PCM. J Adams wrote: > On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:47:04 -0500, AS > wrote: > > >>The code for cylinder one leads me to believe the problem could be the >>camshaft position sensor. > > Hi Alex > > I found out the #10 is displayed as a seperator code. Which is why I > get > 111 system pass > 10 cylinder one > 111 system pass > thought it was odd to get 111 after getting 10. If I got 111, 10, 111, > 10 then it would indicate a cylinder #1 problem, of course I probably > wouldn't get a 111 either by that reasoning. > > Since you pointed me in the right direction. When I kept getting the > KOEO 211 code (though only after a running engine), PIP signal, which > would indicate the CKP. Replaced CKP and traced the wiring plus tested > it for shorts or open circuit. I would never get a 211 code if I did > the KOEO test then cleared the memory and reran the KOEO test. > > I did the spark test and it was consistent even as the car was dying. > The injector test light was different it would miss, pulsing light > erratic in time engine missing/stalling. The only thing controlling > the injectors is the PCM. The camshaft sensor provides information to > the PCM so it can timing information for the injectors and the ICM for > spark timing. At least that's my interpretation, am I wrong on that? > If it was the camshaft sensor would I get a consistent and steady > spark and have the injector test light fluctuate doesn't that indicate > the PCM is bad? Now that I'm reading this I did not test injector with > test light and spark simultaneously. > > If I get steady spark and intermittent light pulses coinciding with > missing/stalling wouldn't that point to the PCM. It doesn't rule the > CMS out, but wouldn't begin pointing more towards the PCM. > > By the way I've found quite a few uses for that test light with other > circuits. > > > >>I doubt the CKP is defective because you have spark and the car ran when >>you sprayed the starting fluid. >> >>Good luck, >> >>Alex >> >>J Adams wrote: >> >>>On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:09:51 -0600, "Hairy" > wrote: >>> >>>Hi Dave >>> >>>That was my first guess, but after 3 fuel pumps in 8 months the Haynes >>>book is wrong, per Ford 30-45 is the correct range. The first fuel >>>pump was actually bad, but that's another story. Turns out per AS >>>suggestion of using the test light on the injectors I have either a >>>shorted wire in the CKP circuit or a bad PCM. So now I'm tracing the >>>wires in the CKP circuit and if I don't find anything there it leaves >>>the PCM, which I assume from my reading is how 'they' determine the >>>PCM is bad. >>> >>>When the car was running and the injector test was hooked up when the >>>engine started missing so did the light. If the light was missing then >>>the problem became electrical. This is cutting off the power to the >>>injectors and no fuel, hence the stalling. It didn't help that I was >>>flooding it trying to restart it. >>> >>>If it had not been for AS help I would throwing a grenade in the >>>engine compartment. He was correct in refocusing on the process of >>>electrical and fuel. So heres what happened. >>>1) Test for spark and condition of spark >>>2) Test for fuel delivery. >>>3) When I sprayed starting fluid it would start (briefly) >>>4) Listened to injector while and continued while missing started and >>>it began dying. Heard a missing in the injector as well as the hearing >>>the coughing and sputtering from the engine. >>>5) Hooked up test light to the injector and light pulsed steady until >>>missing began, then the light missed as well. >>> >>>****Problem is electrical in the CKP circuit or PCM is bad. As PCMs >>>rarely ever go bad the problem is probably in the CKP circuit. Those >>>are the only two things that control the injectors and the PCM has >>>direct control over the injectors. So if the there is no wiring >>>problem in the CKP circuit the only thing left is the PCM. >>> >>>BUT, today I begin the wiring harnesses inspection process, so we'll >>>see..... >>> >>> >>>>>Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow >>>>>New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves >>>>>the injectors, what do you think? >>>>>Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test. >>>> >>>>According to my Haynes, pressure should be 35-45 with engine not running and >>>>30-35 with engine running. Sounds like yours is low?? Injected engines don't >>>>like it when pressure isn't up to snuff. >>>> >>>>dave >>>>
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