Gasoline with Ethanol...

Heard a good one from the service advisor at the local Ford dealer who
has been trying to solve a mystery with one of my cars shutting off in
traffic: I was asking if maybe the car might have water in the gas
tank, and one of the things he mentioned is that with most all the
gasoline brand these days that when they put the ethanol in the gas
(and virtually *all* the gas stations sell gas with, "up to 10%
ethanol added") they actually mix the ethanol with *water* before
mising it with the gas.

Anyone else hear of such a thing?
--
"I... Can't drive... FIFTY-FIVE!!"
--Sammy Hagar

In article >,
necromancer > wrote:
>
>
>traffic: I was asking if maybe the car might have water in the gas
>tank, and one of the things he mentioned is that with most all the
>gasoline brand these days that when they put the ethanol in the gas
>(and virtually *all* the gas stations sell gas with, "up to 10%
>ethanol added") they actually mix the ethanol with *water* before
>mising it with the gas.
>
>Anyone else hear of such a thing?

Sounds unlikely, and a bit of searching seems to indicate that the
ethanol added to gasoline is anhydrous ethanol. Anyway, if the
gasoline has ethanol in it, it would take a LOT of water in the
gasoline to get separated water in the tank.
--
The problem with socialism is there's always
someone with less ability and more need.

>> traffic: I was asking if maybe the car might have water in the gas
>> tank, and one of the things he mentioned is that with most all the
>> gasoline brand these days that when they put the ethanol in the gas
>> (and virtually *all* the gas stations sell gas with, "up to 10%
>> ethanol added") they actually mix the ethanol with *water* before
>> mising it with the gas.
>>
>> Anyone else hear of such a thing?

> Sounds unlikely, and a bit of searching seems to indicate that the
> ethanol added to gasoline is anhydrous ethanol. Anyway, if the
> gasoline has ethanol in it, it would take a LOT of water in the
> gasoline to get separated water in the tank.

Anhydrous ethanol is hygroscopic (absorbs water from the air) until it
reaches 5% water content. The only way to keep it purer than that is to
store it in an airtight container (and gasoline storage tanks are vented,
by federal law, to reduce explosion hazard).

This of course is not the same thing as deliberately adding water, but it
does mean there's always going to be some water in it.

"necromancer" <Zidane's_Last_Red_Card@worldofnecromancer_no_spam _no_way.org>
wrote in message ...
> Heard a good one from the service advisor at the local Ford dealer who
> has been trying to solve a mystery with one of my cars shutting off in
> traffic: I was asking if maybe the car might have water in the gas
> tank, and one of the things he mentioned is that with most all the
> gasoline brand these days that when they put the ethanol in the gas
> (and virtually *all* the gas stations sell gas with, "up to 10%
> ethanol added") they actually mix the ethanol with *water* before
> mising it with the gas.
>
> Anyone else hear of such a thing?

No, but the problem of the vehicle just shutting off in traffic is more than
likely a crank position sensor and/or cam position sensor problem. Any check
engine codes?

John David Galt wrote:
>>> traffic: I was asking if maybe the car might have water in the gas
>>> tank, and one of the things he mentioned is that with most all the
>>> gasoline brand these days that when they put the ethanol in the gas
>>> (and virtually *all* the gas stations sell gas with, "up to 10%
>>> ethanol added") they actually mix the ethanol with *water* before
>>> mising it with the gas.
>>>
>>> Anyone else hear of such a thing?
>
>> Sounds unlikely, and a bit of searching seems to indicate that the
>> ethanol added to gasoline is anhydrous ethanol. Anyway, if the
>> gasoline has ethanol in it, it would take a LOT of water in the
>> gasoline to get separated water in the tank.
>
> Anhydrous ethanol is hygroscopic (absorbs water from the air) until it
> reaches 5% water content. The only way to keep it purer than that is to
> store it in an airtight container (and gasoline storage tanks are vented,
> by federal law, to reduce explosion hazard).
>
> This of course is not the same thing as deliberately adding water, but it
> does mean there's always going to be some water in it.
I had my tank changed by GM and the injectors changed one appointment at
a time ethanol/water gas was the culprit.
They were going to change them again when it was totaled. My wife's
little sport car has had two codes so far: ethanol/water/gas.
I've had to rebuild the carb on two mowers so far:ethanol/gas/water and
setting over winter.
Ethanol cost more, is less efficient, is responsible for more pollution,
and is destructive to engines and fuel systems. The lies by EPA and ADM
others of the Ethanol Corn Lobby etc are just like the idiocy by NHTSA
that large Pickups and autos were less safe than compact tin cans.
The lines of cars at dealer service centers, at particular seasons is a
testimony to the truth.
When they force E15 and E85 down our throats our cost to operate a
vehicle, down time,frustration and COSTS will skyrocket. Ethanol Corn
Lobby will make billions to invest in Swiss and Cayman Banks.
between those costs, black, boxes, chiropractors, for all the drivers,
of the new midgets seats and bend head rests, and taxes to subsidize the
Ethanol Corn industry it will force us onto bicycles which is their goal
anyway. The idiots are running the asylum of Washington.
It is clear that the People and the Republic are not being served.

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 20:59:52 -0700, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr."
> wrote:

>No, but the problem of the vehicle just shutting off in traffic is more than
>likely a crank position sensor and/or cam position sensor problem. Any check
>engine codes?

Well, there was. The first mechanic I took the car to scanned the
computer (check engine light was on) and went looking for the problem
and was unsuccessful, ultimately telling me to take the car to Ford.
Unfortunately, he cleared the code also. He did write down the code he
got for me (P01237 (number zero, not letter O)), but according to both
Ford and someone in rec.autos.tech, that's not a vaild code for Ford
computers.

The service advisor at Ford says he's 99% sure it is the fuel pump
based on my description of what it was doing, but with out a code in
the computer, he can't be 100% sure and doesn't want to go throwing
new parts at the car unless he's 100% sure (FWIW, new fuel pump =
US$650.00)

That leaves me right now scratching my head. This is my father's car
(he's 87) and because of this, he is afraid to drive the car.
Fortunately the two times it did shut off, I was driving and as such
had no problem getting the car to the side of the road w/o power
steering; obviously though, I can't be around all the time to drive
him around, so something has to be done. RIght now, I've been driving
the car around to run the tank to as near empty as I can and then I'm
going to fill it up with fresh fuel and see what happens.

Its my theory that there may be water in the tank - the car doesn't
get driven that much and is not fueled up too often - unlike my car
that I never let go below 3/4 of a tank - and that possiblly water is
settling in the tank that way while the car is sitting there. But
unfortunately, w/o a code in the computer....

In reference to lil anber's comment, I had similar problems with some
of my lawn equipment. When I took one of them to the guy I bought it
from (an actual lawn equipment dealer and service shop, not Home Depot
or wal*mart) he dumped the fuel in it and replaced it with marine gas
(has no ethanol) and it runs fine now - as does all my other lawn
equipment since I switched them.
--
"I... Can't drive... FIFTY-FIVE!!"
--Sammy Hagar

On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 00:11:23 -0400, lil abner > wrote:

>When they force E15 and E85 down our throats our cost to operate a
>vehicle, down time,frustration and COSTS will skyrocket.

In all fairness, most cars - even the car of mine that is having the
problems - are supposed to beable to run on upto 10% Ethanol and E85
is only supposed to be used in cars designed for it.

--
"I... Can't drive... FIFTY-FIVE!!"
--Sammy Hagar

"necromancer" <Zidane's_Last_Red_Card@worldofnecromancer_no_spam _no_way.org>
wrote in message ...
> On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 20:59:52 -0700, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr."
> > wrote:
>
>>No, but the problem of the vehicle just shutting off in traffic is more
>>than
>>likely a crank position sensor and/or cam position sensor problem. Any
>>check
>>engine codes?
>
> Well, there was. The first mechanic I took the car to scanned the
> computer (check engine light was on) and went looking for the problem
> and was unsuccessful, ultimately telling me to take the car to Ford.
> Unfortunately, he cleared the code also. He did write down the code he
> got for me (P01237 (number zero, not letter O)), but according to both
> Ford and someone in rec.autos.tech, that's not a vaild code for Ford
> computers.
>
But if you leave out the 0 after the P, and just search for "OBDII code
P1237" (without the quotes), it looks like it translates to a Ford OBDII
code:

P1237 Fuel Pump Secondary circuit fault

Probably, the mechanic got so used to writing down P0### codes that he just
wrote down P01237 when he really meant P1237?

> The service advisor at Ford says he's 99% sure it is the fuel pump
> based on my description of what it was doing, but with out a code in
> the computer, he can't be 100% sure and doesn't want to go throwing
> new parts at the car unless he's 100% sure (FWIW, new fuel pump =
> US$650.00)
>
If the problem is still there, the code should return soon even though it
was previously cleared.

[snip...]

necromancer wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 00:11:23 -0400, lil abner > wrote:
>
>> When they force E15 and E85 down our throats our cost to operate a
>> vehicle, down time,frustration and COSTS will skyrocket.
>
> In all fairness, most cars - even the car of mine that is having the
> problems - are supposed to beable to run on upto 10% Ethanol and E85
> is only supposed to be used in cars designed for it.
>
> --
> "I... Can't drive... FIFTY-FIVE!!"
> --Sammy Hagar
I don't believe I implied otherwise.

On 2010-08-10 20:11, lil abner wrote:
> John David Galt wrote:
>>>> traffic: I was asking if maybe the car might have water in the gas
>>>> tank, and one of the things he mentioned is that with most all the
>>>> gasoline brand these days that when they put the ethanol in the gas
>>>> (and virtually *all* the gas stations sell gas with, "up to 10%
>>>> ethanol added") they actually mix the ethanol with *water* before
>>>> mising it with the gas.
>>>> Anyone else hear of such a thing?
>>
>>> Sounds unlikely, and a bit of searching seems to indicate that the
>>> ethanol added to gasoline is anhydrous ethanol. Anyway, if the
>>> gasoline has ethanol in it, it would take a LOT of water in the
>>> gasoline to get separated water in the tank.
>>
>> Anhydrous ethanol is hygroscopic (absorbs water from the air) until it
>> reaches 5% water content. The only way to keep it purer than that is to
>> store it in an airtight container (and gasoline storage tanks are vented,
>> by federal law, to reduce explosion hazard).
>>
>> This of course is not the same thing as deliberately adding water, but it
>> does mean there's always going to be some water in it.
> I had my tank changed by GM and the injectors changed one appointment at
> a time ethanol/water gas was the culprit.
> They were going to change them again when it was totaled. My wife's
> little sport car has had two codes so far: ethanol/water/gas.
> I've had to rebuild the carb on two mowers so far:ethanol/gas/water and
> setting over winter.
> Ethanol cost more, is less efficient, is responsible for more pollution,
> and is destructive to engines and fuel systems. The lies by EPA and ADM
> others of the Ethanol Corn Lobby etc are just like the idiocy by NHTSA
> that large Pickups and autos were less safe than compact tin cans.
> The lines of cars at dealer service centers, at particular seasons is a
> testimony to the truth.
> When they force E15 and E85 down our throats our cost to operate a
> vehicle, down time,frustration and COSTS will skyrocket. Ethanol Corn
> Lobby will make billions to invest in Swiss and Cayman Banks.
> between those costs, black, boxes, chiropractors, for all the drivers,
> of the new midgets seats and bend head rests, and taxes to subsidize the
> Ethanol Corn industry it will force us onto bicycles which is their goal
> anyway. The idiots are running the asylum of Washington.
> It is clear that the People and the Republic are not being served.

You can say that again.

The Democratic Party is bought and paid for by bureaucrats and union thugs,
and that's who it represents. It's 1923 in the Weimar Republic all over
again.

The hyperinflation will be here before the end of Obama's term.