BMW's nothing but problems??? Really???

"Fred W" > wrote in message
...
> Jack Dotson wrote:
>> "JimV" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>
>>>You'll get lots of opinions on this, even from BMW owners. Keep in mind
>>>that a lot of folks here are under warranty or contract so they don't pay
>>>out of pocket for every repair. BMWs are expensive to maintain as they
>>>age, especially if you're paying Hans at the dealer $90/hr to work on it
>>>and full markup on parts. If you can handle some of it yourself it's not
>>>so bad. BMWs are fairly reliable, but not Japanese reliable. But then
>>>they don't drive or look like Japanese cars either. It's a
>>
>>
>>
>>>trade off. Real BMW owners don't own automatics... :-)
>>
>>
>> The ones who can afford them do, the ones who can't act like they
>> wouldn't have it any other way. :-)
>>
>
> That's silly, Jack. The automatic option does not increase the price of
> the car very much at all. Most manual transmission owners have it because
> the *prefer* to drive one. It's not a matter of economics...
>
> --
> -Fred W

It was a joke dude. Think I was going to let him off with saying Real BMW
owners don't drive automatics?

"Rita Ä Berkowitz" <ritaberk2O04 @aol.com> wrote in message
...
> szguitar wrote:
>
> > Many of my friends have been giving me advice of DONT buy a BMW they
> > are a money pit car, $900 alternators, etc... nothing but problems.
>
> Nonsense! This sounds like talk from the uninformed. Sure you'll get an
> occasional lemon just like you would from any other manufacturer. Do the
> regular scheduled maintenance and get the warranty work done if needed.
> Drive it like it was meant to be driven and enjoy it. Don't sweat the
small
> stuff.
>
> > I thought the best people to ask are actual BMW owners. Would you do
> > it again?
>
> Absolutely!
>
> > I love the way they look, the cars I've test drove felt like great
> > engineering went into them. I've heard things such as real men own
> > only 5 series and up? What's the deal with that?
>
> Are you buying the car for yourself or are you just trying to impress
> others? Drive what *YOU* like and stop worrying about what others think
or
> say. If they don't like what you are driving tell them to buy you the car
> *they* think you should be driving.
>
> > I need help in deciding whether to buy a BMW and if so, which model
> > convertible would be the most reliable with the least maintenance
> > costs? I would prefer something that's a pretty quick and fun to
> > drive in the hills and an automatic (M3 or M5?). Pro's and con's of
> > going with an automatic in a BMW? I personally prefer a stick
> > however, traffic has gotten so bad it's a drag constantly going on
> > and off the clutch.
>
> A stick is the only way to go.

Nonsense. If you prefer a stick fair enough, but as so much of todays
everyday motoring seems to involve driving in heavy traffic, an auto makes
much more sense.
Go back 20 or 30 years and I might have agreed with you, but not in todays
traffic conditions.
I do agree with your other points though. In that it's his choice, and I
also agree with most of the posters that say a BMW is not necessarily a
money pit.
Well maintained they are no more expensive to run than any other similarly
classed car.
Mike.

Anything you read here is anecdotal and involves a small sample size,
skewed by people who have a strong opinion one way or the other.
Objective surveys from Consumer Reports and JD Powers indicate that
BMWs are more reliable than American makes (in general), but not as
reliable as Acura and Lexus. We all know about Mercedes's quality
downfall and bad customer service. If you enjoy the driving
characteristics of a BMW, you just have to resign yourself to the
higher probability of something going wrong and a higher lifetime cost
of maintenance. This is worth it for some. Not my opinion, just a sober
reading of the data. As for me, I put more weight on total quality and
reliability. Once BMW fixes its reliability issues, designs a new
navigation system, and drives down its total ownership costs to the
level of a Lexus, I'll be a buyer.

In article >,
Fred W > wrote:
> > The ones who can afford them do, the ones who can't act like they
> > wouldn't have it any other way. :-)

> That's silly, Jack. The automatic option does not increase the price of
> the car very much at all. Most manual transmission owners have it
> because the *prefer* to drive one. It's not a matter of economics...

In the UK, any manual BMW other than the very small ones would fetch very
much less on re-sale. Perhaps it's because traffic densities are higher
here?

--
*This message has been ROT-13 encrypted twice for extra security *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

> Avoid the first year of a new model. That's about it.
People say this, but, my E91 3 series is in the first year of the
model, is just over 2 months old with 2700 miles and I have not had to
go back to the dealer for any post-production fixes (out of BMW's brand
new factory). It is so far faultless. The only thing I can say about
the first year model is that not all equipment on the options list is
available yet, but everything I want is so no problem. OK it's early
days and 1 car is not much of a sample, what is the big deal about
first year of model cars?

>Once BMW fixes its reliability issues,
Really! OK Lexus wins on the reliability by a bit, but its not like
BMW's are "lemons"

> and drives down its total ownership costs to the level of a Lexus, I'll be a buyer.
Wierd, in the UK any Lexus is more expensive to buy and run than a
competing BMW (though better equipped as standard), partly because a
diesel has only just become available for the first time and only on
the IS. Even with petrol/gas engines, Lexus are slow and thirsty
compared to a BMW and servicing/parts is not cheaper.

Given the long service intervals on the new cars I worked out that the
servicing is going to cost no more than Toyota/Honda

>In the UK, any manual BMW other than the very small ones would fetch very
>much less on re-sale. Perhaps it's because traffic densities are higher
>here?
Absolutely true.... for any Mercedes. A Mercedes without an auto box
is practically unsellable. On the 3 series manual boxes massively out
number auto boxes in the market. 5 series and up and it's all change
with the auto box being essential for re-sale.

"Dave Plowman (News)" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Floyd Rogers > wrote:
>> None of the M cars come with an automatic. They *do* come with
>> the SMG transmissions.
>
> The SMG *is* an auto. It simply allows more manual input than most
> epicyclic ones - but this is not intrinsic in either.
>
> --
> *A fool and his money are soon partying *
>
> Dave Plowman London SW
> To e-mail, change noise into sound.


I disagree with you. An automatic transmission has a torque converter. The
SMG does not. A manual transmission has a clutch. The SMG has a clutch
which is electronically engaged rather than manually with a pedal.

Eisboch

"Jack Dotson" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> It was a joke dude. Think I was going to let him off with saying Real BMW
> owners don't drive automatics?
>

One of the most impressive things I noticed when I first bought a BMW ('01
750iL) was the precision of the automatic shifts. It actually sounds and
feels like a manual, but isn't. Since then, we've had several BMW's, a '01
330ci, an X5 and currently a '06 750iL and a '06 M5. All had the superb
Steptronic transmission except the M5 that has the SMG.

Eisboch

Jack Dotson wrote:
> "Fred W" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Jack Dotson wrote:
>>
>>>"JimV" > wrote in message
om...
>>>
>>>
>>>>You'll get lots of opinions on this, even from BMW owners. Keep in mind
>>>>that a lot of folks here are under warranty or contract so they don't pay
>>>>out of pocket for every repair. BMWs are expensive to maintain as they
>>>>age, especially if you're paying Hans at the dealer $90/hr to work on it
>>>>and full markup on parts. If you can handle some of it yourself it's not
>>>>so bad. BMWs are fairly reliable, but not Japanese reliable. But then
>>>>they don't drive or look like Japanese cars either. It's a
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>trade off. Real BMW owners don't own automatics... :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>The ones who can afford them do, the ones who can't act like they
>>>wouldn't have it any other way. :-)
>>>
>>
>>That's silly, Jack. The automatic option does not increase the price of
>>the car very much at all. Most manual transmission owners have it because
>>the *prefer* to drive one. It's not a matter of economics...
>>
>>--
>>-Fred W
>
>
> It was a joke dude. Think I was going to let him off with saying Real BMW
> owners don't drive automatics?
>
>

Oh, sorry. I missed the sarcasm... ;-)

--
-Fred W

wrote:
> Anything you read here is anecdotal and involves a small sample size,
> skewed by people who have a strong opinion one way or the other.
> Objective surveys from Consumer Reports and JD Powers indicate that
> BMWs are more reliable than American makes (in general), but not as
> reliable as Acura and Lexus. We all know about Mercedes's quality
> downfall and bad customer service. If you enjoy the driving
> characteristics of a BMW, you just have to resign yourself to the
> higher probability of something going wrong and a higher lifetime cost
> of maintenance. This is worth it for some. Not my opinion, just a sober
> reading of the data. As for me, I put more weight on total quality and
> reliability. Once BMW fixes its reliability issues, designs a new
> navigation system, and drives down its total ownership costs to the
> level of a Lexus, I'll be a buyer.
>

I agree in general. The only thing to keep in mind about the JD Powers
and Consumer Reports surveys is they do not adequately differenciate
between serious problems and niggling inconvenience issues. Since all
require a visit to the dealership for warranty repair they are treated
pretty much equally, accounting only for the frequency of total failures.

To me, the only important failures are the serious ones affecting
driveability and safety. Minor problems with electronic gee-gaw, while
of interest should not be of major concern.

--
-Fred W

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article >,
> Fred W > wrote:
>
>>>The ones who can afford them do, the ones who can't act like they
>>>wouldn't have it any other way. :-)
>
>
>>That's silly, Jack. The automatic option does not increase the price of
>>the car very much at all. Most manual transmission owners have it
>>because the *prefer* to drive one. It's not a matter of economics...
>
>
> In the UK, any manual BMW other than the very small ones would fetch very
> much less on re-sale. Perhaps it's because traffic densities are higher
> here?
>

No, it's the same thing here, except that your resale vales seem even
more deflated than ours, so perhaps that is a bigger concern.

Are you saying that the differential in price at resale is greater
(either in actual money or as a percentage) than the cost difference
when new?

That would be interesting...


--
-Fred W