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  #21  
Old June 11th 10, 04:34 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw
Zathras
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 742
Default Auto Wipers

On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 06:41:42 -0400, Dean Dark
> wrote:

>On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 09:09:17 +0100, Zathras
> wrote:
>
>>Eh? Two hugely experienced, professional, independent race engine
>>builders from two different countries. What expertise do you possess
>>to even question their credibility?

>
>*Now* who's shooting the messenger?
>
>If you read carefully, I was just pointing out that a) someone who
>learned a few HTML tags and thinks he can put together a "web site"
>and b) an egomaniac, are not the best showcases for engineering
>knowledge, no matter how sound most of it may be.
>
>Do you see?


Yes..no expertise whatsoever..

--
Z
Ads
  #22  
Old June 11th 10, 04:43 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw
Jeff Strickland[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 627
Default Auto Wipers


"David Skelton" > wrote in message
...
> Hi All,
>
> Yesterday, we went for a 170 mile trip in our 2009 335d SE. Odometer now
> up to 1648 miles. Will do an oil + filter change next week.
>


Why?





  #23  
Old June 11th 10, 04:50 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw
Zathras
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 742
Default Auto Wipers

On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 12:01:38 +0100, "David Skelton"
> wrote:

>
>"Zathras" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:36:01 +0100, "David Skelton"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>Still have not been full throttle yet...

>>
>> ..ahh..you don't believe these then..
>>
>> http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
>> http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/runin.htm
>>
>> <pedant on> Where's the "throttle" on a 335d?<pedant off> ;-)
>>
>> --
>> Z

>
>The first is a builder of high revving race engines, not the same as a diesel road
>engine.


I'm not sure the differences you suggest are significant in regard to
cylinder walls and piston rings being run in.

>The second, well I followed most of that advice, but going full throttle for 10 seconds
>in fourth or fifth gear will put you into licence losing territory within ten seconds if
>you are already moving.


Yes that's definitely an issue.

>Even in manual mode, the gear box will still shift down at approaching full throttle,
>therefore not keeping the revs below the *manufacturers* guidance ( whom has a lot more
>experience of their engines than any 'builder', BTY).


Manufacturers are a bit limited in what they can say in regards to how
an engine should be driven. For example the can't suggest breaking the
law or driving in particularly aggressive ways.

Manufacturers can also get things wrong. The UK MOT can be a bit
unnerving for some diesel owners when they discover the max rev part.

>So we did, from 200 miles, do several short 1/2 throttle bursts in a high gear every time
>we went out in it.
>
>I think you will find most mechanics will change the oil in their own car (if it was new)
>after about the first 1500 miles.


I've also found mechanics can be out of date with their advice.

>We collected the car with 8 miles registered on the odometer, no idea how it was driven
>during that time.


From experience, aggressively!

--
Z
  #24  
Old June 11th 10, 05:35 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw
Jeff Strickland[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 627
Default Auto Wipers


"Zathras" > wrote in message
news
>>We collected the car with 8 miles registered on the odometer, no idea how
>>it was driven
>>during that time.

>
> From experience, aggressively!
>


That assume the odometer went in at zero and the car actually has any miles
on it. It is a digital odometer, so they could reset it to zero after
testing, but why bother? Who is going to care in the long run?

If the odometer went into the car with 5 or 6 miles on it, it could easily
be a mile from the dock to the parking space, and another mile back to the
transport truck. How aggressively can a car be driven in a parking lot full
of cars?

How aggressively can a car be driven in 8 miles, no matter what the
surroundings are? Keep in mind that the "problem" to be cured is an oil
change to keep any aggressive driving damage to a minimim? Seriously.



  #25  
Old June 11th 10, 05:58 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw
David Skelton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 47
Default Auto Wipers


"Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
...
>
> "David Skelton" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Yesterday, we went for a 170 mile trip in our 2009 335d SE. Odometer now up to 1648
>> miles. Will do an oil + filter change next week.
>>

>
> Why?
>


Because the oil will be quite contaminated.

The mating of the rings to cylinder wall would have been the worst they could be,
resulting in a relatively large volume of blow-by gases, amongst other cr@p...

There is also a lot of debris from the original casting and the asperities from break-in
floating around in the oil.
Some say that it will all be caught by the oil filter, but I have found this not to be
the complete truth. Sometimes, the oil pressure relief valve may open when the oil is
cold at higher revs, bypassing the oil filter. Another good reason not to thrash the
engine from cold.

Also, I know it is not 'due' a change, (but this may be due to BMW trying to keep the
company / fleet buyers happy with a reduced service regime, reducing costs) until 2 years
or goodness knows how many miles have been traversed, but I am not happy running oil in
an engine for that long from new.

At the beginning of the Nineties, I was in contact with the engineers at Mobil, (when I
first heard that extended drains would become the norm). I did ask Mobil if they were
confident that their Mobil-1 would last 25,000 miles. I was assured that *if* the engine
manufacturers could guarantee zero blow-by, then they (Mobil) would guarantee the oil for
the life of the engine, one fill.

I know that the blow-by should be burnt due to PCV, that is why all the 'break-in' trips
were all more than 60 miles a time.

There will always be some folks who rigidly follow the instructions, others who think
they know better, those that do not care.

You pays your money, and you make your choice.

The oil in the engine absolutely stinks, is filthy black and I am changing it with the
oil filter.

I may even take the pan / sump off to clean that too..... ;-) ha ha ha

best wishes

David Skelton



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---
  #26  
Old June 11th 10, 06:00 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw
Dean Dark[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 126
Default Auto Wipers

On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 16:34:53 +0100, Zathras
> wrote:

>On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 06:41:42 -0400, Dean Dark
> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 09:09:17 +0100, Zathras
> wrote:
>>
>>>Eh? Two hugely experienced, professional, independent race engine
>>>builders from two different countries. What expertise do you possess
>>>to even question their credibility?

>>
>>*Now* who's shooting the messenger?
>>
>>If you read carefully, I was just pointing out that a) someone who
>>learned a few HTML tags and thinks he can put together a "web site"
>>and b) an egomaniac, are not the best showcases for engineering
>>knowledge, no matter how sound most of it may be.
>>
>>Do you see?

>
>Yes..no expertise whatsoever..


Oh, dear. You *don't* see, do you? Carry on shooting...
  #27  
Old June 11th 10, 06:13 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw
Jeff Strickland[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 627
Default Auto Wipers


"David Skelton" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "David Skelton" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> Yesterday, we went for a 170 mile trip in our 2009 335d SE. Odometer now
>>> up to 1648 miles. Will do an oil + filter change next week.
>>>

>>
>> Why?
>>

>
> Because the oil will be quite contaminated.
>
> The mating of the rings to cylinder wall would have been the worst they
> could be, resulting in a relatively large volume of blow-by gases, amongst
> other cr@p...
>
> There is also a lot of debris from the original casting and the asperities
> from break-in floating around in the oil.
> Some say that it will all be caught by the oil filter, but I have found
> this not to be the complete truth. Sometimes, the oil pressure relief
> valve may open when the oil is cold at higher revs, bypassing the oil
> filter. Another good reason not to thrash the engine from cold.
>
> Also, I know it is not 'due' a change, (but this may be due to BMW trying
> to keep the company / fleet buyers happy with a reduced service regime,
> reducing costs) until 2 years or goodness knows how many miles have been
> traversed, but I am not happy running oil in an engine for that long from
> new.
>
> At the beginning of the Nineties, I was in contact with the engineers at
> Mobil, (when I first heard that extended drains would become the norm). I
> did ask Mobil if they were confident that their Mobil-1 would last 25,000
> miles. I was assured that *if* the engine manufacturers could guarantee
> zero blow-by, then they (Mobil) would guarantee the oil for the life of
> the engine, one fill.
>
> I know that the blow-by should be burnt due to PCV, that is why all the
> 'break-in' trips were all more than 60 miles a time.
>
> There will always be some folks who rigidly follow the instructions,
> others who think they know better, those that do not care.
>
> You pays your money, and you make your choice.
>
> The oil in the engine absolutely stinks, is filthy black and I am changing
> it with the oil filter.
>
> I may even take the pan / sump off to clean that too..... ;-) ha ha ha
>
> best wishes
>
> David Skelton
>


That was true at one time. Engine builders are able to (and go to great
effort/expense to) flush that crap out of the motor because the car maker
does not want to be exposed to the warranty issues that arise from it
remaining.

I don't know how much oil a deisel holds -- the gas engines hold 7 quarts --
but I think you are throwing away perfectly good oil and getting no tangable
benefit from the exercise or expense.






  #28  
Old June 11th 10, 06:19 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw
David Skelton[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 47
Default Auto Wipers



>>> Z

>>
>>The first is a builder of high revving race engines, not the same as a diesel road
>>engine.

>
> I'm not sure the differences you suggest are significant in regard to
> cylinder walls and piston rings being run in.


The differences of cylinder pressure, and relative ring speed are significant, and that a
race engine is not expected to last 200,000 miles, is it ???


>
>>The second, well I followed most of that advice, but going full throttle for 10 seconds
>>in fourth or fifth gear will put you into licence losing territory within ten seconds
>>if
>>you are already moving.

>
> Yes that's definitely an issue.
>
>>Even in manual mode, the gear box will still shift down at approaching full throttle,
>>therefore not keeping the revs below the *manufacturers* guidance ( whom has a lot more
>>experience of their engines than any 'builder', BTY).

>
> Manufacturers are a bit limited in what they can say in regards to how
> an engine should be driven. For example the can't suggest breaking the
> law or driving in particularly aggressive ways.
>


Of course... but it is them whom will have to pay for the repairs if their advice is
followed and it is wrong. Difficult to prove, I know.


> Manufacturers can also get things wrong. The UK MOT can be a bit
> unnerving for some diesel owners when they discover the max rev part.


I agree, there are things I do not like about BMWs


>>So we did, from 200 miles, do several short 1/2 throttle bursts in a high gear every
>>time
>>we went out in it.
>>
>>I think you will find most mechanics will change the oil in their own car (if it was
>>new)
>>after about the first 1500 miles.

>
> I've also found mechanics can be out of date with their advice.


There will be some whom tow the manufacturer's line, others whom will be honest. But,
Mastertechs *usually* know their stuff.
Extensive training and monitoring, checking items replaced under warranty for
manufacturing defects, or imperfect assembly / repair previously attempted, and reporting
back to BMW to assist product enhancment helps convince me.
The mechanics that rush the jobs to gain bonus payments often do shoddy work practices
and miss out tasks, those I would not trust.

>>We collected the car with 8 miles registered on the odometer, no idea how it was driven
>>during that time.

>
> From experience, aggressively!
>
> --
> Z


best wishes

David Skelton



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---
  #29  
Old June 13th 10, 09:19 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw
Zathras
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 742
Default Auto Wipers

On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 09:35:41 -0700, "Jeff Strickland"
> wrote:

>
>"Zathras" > wrote in message
>news
>>>We collected the car with 8 miles registered on the odometer, no idea how
>>>it was driven
>>>during that time.

>>
>> From experience, aggressively!
>>

>
>That assume the odometer went in at zero and the car actually has any miles
>on it. It is a digital odometer, so they could reset it to zero after
>testing, but why bother? Who is going to care in the long run?
>
>If the odometer went into the car with 5 or 6 miles on it, it could easily
>be a mile from the dock to the parking space, and another mile back to the
>transport truck. How aggressively can a car be driven in a parking lot full
>of cars?


LOL..I've seen cold starts on *full* throttle followed by wheel spins,
gear changes, reverse and forward and manoeuvring of vehicles without
reducing the throttle from flat until the guy gets out after moving
the car a couple of hundred yards!!

Think about it. "Right guys..you've got 500 cars to move and it's a
fixed payment for the job..".

>How aggressively can a car be driven in 8 miles, no matter what the
>surroundings are?


Accelerator flat to the boards and just use the clutch. When I saw it
happening to Volvos, it was such an incredible and violent sight, I
was transfixed and watch these transporters shift a staggering amount
of cars (accurately) in a stunningly short time. I could certainly see
smoke from clutches.

>Keep in mind that the "problem" to be cured is an oil
>change to keep any aggressive driving damage to a minimim? Seriously.


I'm not sure how effective this policy is though. Running in is a
process involving deliberate and relatively high levels of engine
wear. I've heard it said that having a dirty oil can assist this
process where having a clean oil can hinder this process.

I while back, I owned ex-hire cars that had no oil change for the
first 15000 miles and were over 50% late for an oil change. They were
cheap! These cars were never treated remotely carefully but every one
had excellent engines that have since gone on to cover over 200000
miles without internal overhaul. The tended not to need oil top-ups.

Personally speaking, I don't know which camp (treat it rough or the
more gentle sort with frequent oil changes) is correct so I tend to
steer in between the two. I treat my cars rough and change the oil a
bit more frequently than manufacturers recommend. So far, so good! ;-)

--
Z
  #30  
Old June 13th 10, 09:42 PM posted to alt.autos.bmw
Zathras
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 742
Default Auto Wipers

On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 18:19:59 +0100, "David Skelton"
> wrote:

>
>
>>>> Z
>>>
>>>The first is a builder of high revving race engines, not the same as a diesel road
>>>engine.

>>
>> I'm not sure the differences you suggest are significant in regard to
>> cylinder walls and piston rings being run in.

>
>The differences of cylinder pressure, and relative ring speed are significant, and that a
>race engine is not expected to last 200,000 miles, is it ???


Are you saying that wear patterns developed in a highly stressed
engine in a short time frame cannot be remotely similar to those
produced by a lower stressed engine in a much longer time frame?

--
Z
 




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