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BMW diesels for Cadillac?



 
 
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  #21  
Old November 28th 04, 11:27 PM
GRL
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How does MB manage to do it?

George Litwinski
"daytripper" > wrote in message
...
> On 28 Nov 2004 03:46:30 -0800, (Andrew
> Thomas) wrote:
>
> >"GRL" > wrote in message

>...
> >> Let's be serious. There are things BMW can do, and there are things

they
> >> can't.
> >>

> >...
> >
> >> They cannot build and sell a sedan in the mid- $20K range
> >> that people will buy.

> >
> >BMW is quite capable of doing that (although with the US dollar at
> >record lows, $25,000 might be a bit tight these days). The problem is
> >at this price level the car would have a smaller engine and less
> >grunt, and American consumers don't like anything less than 200 bhp (I
> >guess they need it for all those derestricted interstates ).
> >
> >> They can't bring themselves to sell a diesel in the
> >> U.S.

> >
> >Yup. It's partly an image thing (remarkable, really, the differences
> >across the pond - BMW's image on this side has if anything been
> >improved by the good standing of its diesel models), but also diesel
> >grade. Apparently BMW is waiting for lower sulphur levels to be
> >mandated in the diesel available at North American pumps; then it will
> >likely bring in its SUVs with one or two diesel engines (which are far
> >better suited to this application than the petrols).

>
> They may also be waiting for state legislation to ease enough to actually

sell
> diesel *cars* in the USA. I don't believe CA and MA, for two, make it easy

if
> even possible to sell diesel automobiles (as opposed to trucks)...



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  #22  
Old November 29th 04, 12:02 AM
Huw
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"GRL" > wrote in message
...
> They tried selling a mid-20's truncated 2-door hatchback version of the
> old
> 3-series in the early '90's BEFORE the fall of the dollar. It was a dismal
> failure, as it deserved to be. I suppose they will try it again with a 1
> or
> 2-series, but I predict those will end up being low 30's cars, at best.
> BMW's problem is that they have gotten away with charging too much for
> their
> cars for so long, that they never learned how to operate very efficiently,
> didn't have to. The problem with that is they say they want to be a broad
> product line company.
>


Almost anything imported from Europe to the US will be expensive given the
state of the Dollar. It will make European exports of everything less than
luxury, high margin, goods less than viable. OTOH it makes importing
American cars to Europe very viable if only they produced something we
wanted. Jeep should do well in Europe for a while I would imagine.

Huw


  #23  
Old November 29th 04, 01:40 AM
GRL
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Actually, we do: Corvettes, some Caddies, some Jeeps...even some Bimmers
and Mercs.

The low dollar effect is real, but not overwhelming...and when it comes back
up (it will as our interest rates go up), BMW STILL will not be able to sell
a mid-20's sedan that anyone will want to buy. Or so I think.

George Litwinski
"Huw" > wrote in message
...
>
> "GRL" > wrote in message
> ...
> > They tried selling a mid-20's truncated 2-door hatchback version of the
> > old
> > 3-series in the early '90's BEFORE the fall of the dollar. It was a

dismal
> > failure, as it deserved to be. I suppose they will try it again with a 1
> > or
> > 2-series, but I predict those will end up being low 30's cars, at best.
> > BMW's problem is that they have gotten away with charging too much for
> > their
> > cars for so long, that they never learned how to operate very

efficiently,
> > didn't have to. The problem with that is they say they want to be a

broad
> > product line company.
> >

>
> Almost anything imported from Europe to the US will be expensive given the
> state of the Dollar. It will make European exports of everything less than
> luxury, high margin, goods less than viable. OTOH it makes importing
> American cars to Europe very viable if only they produced something we
> wanted. Jeep should do well in Europe for a while I would imagine.
>
> Huw
>
>



  #24  
Old November 29th 04, 02:39 AM
daytripper
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On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:27:08 -0500, "GRL" > wrote:
>"daytripper" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On 28 Nov 2004 03:46:30 -0800, (Andrew
>> Thomas) wrote:
>>
>> >"GRL" > wrote in message

>...
>> >> Let's be serious. There are things BMW can do, and there are things

>they
>> >> can't.
>> >>
>> >...
>> >
>> >> They cannot build and sell a sedan in the mid- $20K range
>> >> that people will buy.
>> >
>> >BMW is quite capable of doing that (although with the US dollar at
>> >record lows, $25,000 might be a bit tight these days). The problem is
>> >at this price level the car would have a smaller engine and less
>> >grunt, and American consumers don't like anything less than 200 bhp (I
>> >guess they need it for all those derestricted interstates ).
>> >
>> >> They can't bring themselves to sell a diesel in the
>> >> U.S.
>> >
>> >Yup. It's partly an image thing (remarkable, really, the differences
>> >across the pond - BMW's image on this side has if anything been
>> >improved by the good standing of its diesel models), but also diesel
>> >grade. Apparently BMW is waiting for lower sulphur levels to be
>> >mandated in the diesel available at North American pumps; then it will
>> >likely bring in its SUVs with one or two diesel engines (which are far
>> >better suited to this application than the petrols).

>>
>> They may also be waiting for state legislation to ease enough to actually
>>sell diesel *cars* in the USA. I don't believe CA and MA, for two, make it easy
>>if even possible to sell diesel automobiles (as opposed to trucks)...

>
>How does MB manage to do it?


MB's *only* USA diesel passenger model listed today is the E320 CDI, so it's
not like diesels represent much of a profit center for MB in the USA. And it
isn't obvious that this model could actually be registered in CA or MA...
  #25  
Old November 29th 04, 02:57 AM
GRL
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It can't be sold in either place, but MB still realizes that leaves a whole
lot of the rest of the country. Plus the low sulfur diesel we are mandated
to get in a few years will make if 50 state legal.

It is a sweet unit. Drove one this summer. Excellent smoothness and
acceleration. From inside, you can't tell it's a diesel.


George Litwinski
"daytripper" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:27:08 -0500, "GRL" >

wrote:
> >"daytripper" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> On 28 Nov 2004 03:46:30 -0800,

(Andrew
> >> Thomas) wrote:
> >>
> >> >"GRL" > wrote in message

> >...
> >> >> Let's be serious. There are things BMW can do, and there are things

> >they
> >> >> can't.
> >> >>
> >> >...
> >> >
> >> >> They cannot build and sell a sedan in the mid- $20K range
> >> >> that people will buy.
> >> >
> >> >BMW is quite capable of doing that (although with the US dollar at
> >> >record lows, $25,000 might be a bit tight these days). The problem is
> >> >at this price level the car would have a smaller engine and less
> >> >grunt, and American consumers don't like anything less than 200 bhp (I
> >> >guess they need it for all those derestricted interstates ).
> >> >
> >> >> They can't bring themselves to sell a diesel in the
> >> >> U.S.
> >> >
> >> >Yup. It's partly an image thing (remarkable, really, the differences
> >> >across the pond - BMW's image on this side has if anything been
> >> >improved by the good standing of its diesel models), but also diesel
> >> >grade. Apparently BMW is waiting for lower sulphur levels to be
> >> >mandated in the diesel available at North American pumps; then it will
> >> >likely bring in its SUVs with one or two diesel engines (which are far
> >> >better suited to this application than the petrols).
> >>
> >> They may also be waiting for state legislation to ease enough to

actually
> >>sell diesel *cars* in the USA. I don't believe CA and MA, for two, make

it easy
> >>if even possible to sell diesel automobiles (as opposed to trucks)...

> >
> >How does MB manage to do it?

>
> MB's *only* USA diesel passenger model listed today is the E320 CDI, so

it's
> not like diesels represent much of a profit center for MB in the USA. And

it
> isn't obvious that this model could actually be registered in CA or MA...



  #26  
Old November 29th 04, 04:48 AM
Vernon Balbert
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It's interesting that nobody has pointed out that diesel fuel in the
U.S. does not have a lot of availability. Most gas stations (at least
in California and Oregon) don't carry diesel. Maybe one in eight or ten
does.

Diesel has gotten a bad rap, especially on the west coast. The public's
perception is that the exhaust is dirtier than gasoline exhaust. Which
is why the tax on it is higher so that the price is pretty much the same
as regular gas even though the fuel itself is cheaper than gas.

Vern
  #27  
Old November 29th 04, 05:29 AM
Somebody
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"GRL" > wrote in message
...
> How does MB manage to do it?
>


VW does a brisk business with the TDI models of the bug, Jetta, Golf,
Passat. They're no BMWs, but they're not cheap, and they are German.

-Russ.


  #28  
Old November 29th 04, 07:49 AM
Matt O'Toole
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daytripper wrote:

> They may also be waiting for state legislation to ease enough to
> actually sell diesel *cars* in the USA. I don't believe CA and MA,
> for two, make it easy if even possible to sell diesel automobiles (as
> opposed to trucks)...


This is true, and it's a big problem because those two states, plus NY, are
BMW's biggest markets. But this situation will probably change in 2006, when
low-sulphur diesel becomes available. Then auto diesels can more easily meet
CARB standards. (California Air Resources Board, whose standards have also been
adopted by MA and NY)

Matt O.


  #29  
Old November 29th 04, 08:26 AM
Matt O'Toole
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Default

Vernon Balbert wrote:

> It's interesting that nobody has pointed out that diesel fuel in the
> U.S. does not have a lot of availability. Most gas stations (at least
> in California and Oregon) don't carry diesel. Maybe one in eight or
> ten does.


Who cares? Every truck stop has it. Plus, a VW TDI will give you 700 miles to
a tank!

Wealthy neighborhoods tend to have diesel everywhere, for all the old Mercedes
rolling around.

> Diesel has gotten a bad rap, especially on the west coast.


Not the west coast I'm from, where Mercedes diesels were, and still are,
everywhere. VW/Audi sold a bunch back in their day as well.

> The
> public's perception is that the exhaust is dirtier than gasoline
> exhaust.


This has nothing to do with their lack of availability. Blame it on the CARB,
who made the rules, the public having no say in the matter.

Some say the rules were jiggered to benefit certain automakers who did not have
diesels to offer. The Jetta is is the third best selling car in its class. If
the TDI were available in CARB states, the Jetta would be #1 in class for sure.
The makers of the current #1 and #2 would not be amused.

> Which is why the tax on it is higher so that the price is
> pretty much the same as regular gas even though the fuel itself is
> cheaper than gas.


Gas and diesel taxes are figured differently, based on correlating car and truck
usage.

Matt O.


  #30  
Old November 29th 04, 11:19 AM
Huw
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"GRL" > wrote in message
...
> Actually, we do: Corvettes, some Caddies, some Jeeps...even some Bimmers
> and Mercs.


I should have known this seeing as I have recently owned both an X5 and an
ML270. I would not be surprised if these were now two of the most profitable
models sold in Europe even considering that their engines and some gearboxes
come from Europe to start with.


>
> The low dollar effect is real, but not overwhelming...and when it comes
> back
> up (it will as our interest rates go up), BMW STILL will not be able to
> sell
> a mid-20's sedan that anyone will want to buy. Or so I think.
>


You are probably correct. The BMW1 is very expensive here for what it is. I
suspect that it will sell well regardless although the A Class is not
breaking any sales records.

Huw


 




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