Newbie

Stephen Toth wrote:

> On the topic of fuel grade and mileage-
> I presently have an 06 GT 6AT and always use premium. (90-91 octane).
> My experience over the years is that with a compression ratio of a
> little over 10:1, it is best to stay with premium. As noted, modern
> electronics will retard the timing to accommodate the lower octane and
> prevent detonation, but you loose performance and fuel mileage as a
> result.

I think that a small performance hit is irrelevant off the track,
except perhaps psychologically. How often do you drive in such a manner
as to need every last bit of performance your Miata can provide? If you
drive in that manner, where do you do it? If we wanted exotic
performance at a bargain price we would have bought 'Vettes, no? Fuel
economy is quite relevant, however. Is the mpg difference between
premium and regular fuel so great as to make it more expensive to drive
with regular-grade fuel? Can you quantify the difference over an
extended period of mixed city/suburban/highway driving?

("Loose" as a verb means to release, set free, let go. I think you
meant "lose performance," which means to not have as much performance
as one had previously.)

> With the '93 I drove for 180k miles I alway used mid grade (89 octane
> around here). Did a few mileage runs with regular and mid and thought
> the mid fuel economy was better and that the engine sounded better with
> mid.

If you did mileage runs you shouldn't have "thought" anything; you
should have some hard data. The problem is that you and I can't easily
collect hard data--starting with the fuel tank empty and disconnected
and fuel coming from a carefully calibrated container and driving over
a closed course until the car runs out of gas--and doing this
repeatedly with identical speeds and braking at each point, using
different grades and brands of petrol. Not to mention identical loads,
same temperature and humidity...

Real-world testing is inaccurate because of significant variance
between the quantity of fuel in one "full tank" and the next and
because of significant variance in the kind of driving one does. The
only way I know of to get a reasonable real-world estimate of fuel
consumption is to measure carefully for about one year. Then use a
different grade of gasoline for the next year. If you live in Kansas
and decide to visit the Rockies one year, (or vice-versa) you are going
to have to do the same thing each subsequent year. Repeat for each
grade and brand of fuel you want to test, and after perhaps 10 years
you might have some reasonable approximations. But then you run up
against the problem of an aging system; perhaps there is a way to
calibrate for that, but I don't know what it is.

People want to know what kind of mileage I get from my Prius. I have to
tell them that I /think/ it's between 45 and 55, depending on
conditions--but I'm not sure. What conditions? I don't know. I haven't
checked my Miata for years, but see above.

> My son still has it as a daily driver at around 220k miles, and it
> is still running strong. Also note that I am particular about where I
> get the gas also. I avoid the discount fuel stations and try to stick
> with top name brands of fuel. I know that they all get it from the same
> refineries, and most of the additive talk from one brand to the next is
> a bunch of bull. Just found that over the years, the name brand
> stations tend to be more consistent with what you get, and seldom cause
> issues with extra moisture or dirt from running their tanks too low.
> The non brand name stations are cheaper because they will cut more
> corners, and what you get may not be what they say you are getting.
> After all, they take bulk delivery of whatever the tanker is carrying
> after the name brand outlets have gotten their quota.

It's hard to argue with 220k miles and running strong! Off-brand fuel
is cheaper largely because the seller profits from high-volume. If one
is to do that and succeed, one cannot let one's tanks run dry, and they
don't. I can't guarantee that every off-brand petrol is equivalent to
premium brands, but on average the differences are due largely to urban
legend. My wife buys mid-grade fuel from premium names for her Avalon.
I buy the cheapest I can find for my Miata and my Prius, as I have done
with all of my cars that did not absolutely demand premium-grade fuel.
No ill effects over the past 46 years, but I don't know what tomorrow
will bring.

> As for your mpg. It sounds about right. Some have claimed better even
> with the AT, but I average 28 to 30 mpg in my normal driving. Have seen
> it as high as 34 to 36 on long interstate drives, and as low as 24-25
> with a lot of stop and go in winter when the gas around here has extra
> oxygenators added (ethanol) to meet emission standards. That ethanol
> just doesn't have the same energy density as gas, so the more there is
> the lower the fuel mileage.

Oxygenation <> ethanol.

Davoud

Myth Buster

--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

Davoud:
> > Style-wise, I think the Miata is sort of cute (and we guys hate cute),
> > but basically an undistinguished Japanese committee-designed car--or is
> > it a California committee-designed car?

miker:
> I always thought it was Colin Chapman.
>
> http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-19...-red-fa-lr.jpg

Understandable. I haven't owned an Elan, but I often drove a friend's
Elan as we swapped duties on long trips. Outside of photos, the Miata
has more of the look and feel of an MGB. The Elan wasn't designed by
Chapman, by the way; it was designed by one Ron Hickman, who is better
known in the design world for a more enduring design than that of the
Elan. Hickman is the designer of the Black and Decker Workmate.

Davoud

--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

Actually the NB styling is reminiscent of a style family? that goes back
into the 1950's and 60's, and came from an amalgam of several designs from
famous racing cars that ran in European road races of the time. There was
even an illustration in a readers digest condensed book (1960's) that is
very similar. There is even a "family" resemblance to some more modern
models of Jags and Vettes.

"Davoud" > wrote in message
...
> Davoud:
>> > Style-wise, I think the Miata is sort of cute (and we guys hate cute),
>> > but basically an undistinguished Japanese committee-designed car--or is
>> > it a California committee-designed car?
>
> miker:
>> I always thought it was Colin Chapman.
>>
>> http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-19...-red-fa-lr.jpg
>
> Understandable. I haven't owned an Elan, but I often drove a friend's
> Elan as we swapped duties on long trips. Outside of photos, the Miata
> has more of the look and feel of an MGB. The Elan wasn't designed by
> Chapman, by the way; it was designed by one Ron Hickman, who is better
> known in the design world for a more enduring design than that of the
> Elan. Hickman is the designer of the Black and Decker Workmate.
>
> Davoud
>
> --
> usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

Davoud:
> >> > Style-wise, I think the Miata is sort of cute (and we guys hate cute),
> >> > but basically an undistinguished Japanese committee-designed car--or is
> >> > it a California committee-designed car?

Chuck:
> Actually the NB styling is reminiscent of a style family? that goes back
> into the 1950's and 60's, and came from an amalgam of several designs...

I stand corrected. Make that _several_ committees.

Davoud

--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

Another 'learn something new every day' moment! I see he also designed the
Europa for Lotus. Good to know.

Chris
99BBB

"Davoud" > wrote in message
...
> Davoud:
.. The Elan wasn't designed by
> Chapman, by the way; it was designed by one Ron Hickman, who is better
> known in the design world for a more enduring design than that of the
> Elan. Hickman is the designer of the Black and Decker Workmate.
>
> Davoud
>
> --
> usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

Davoud, Have you read the book: "Eats, Shoots & Leaves" by any chance? If
your sense of humor is half as good as your attention to grammar (I know,
it's probably not the correct word), I think you'd enjoy it. To be honest, I
haven't read it myself but it's all about punctuation and what effect
(affect?, I can never remember) it has on our sentences. Here's the teaser
from the back cover;

A Panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun
and fires two shots in the air.
"Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes towards the exit. The
panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his
shoulder.
"I'm a panda," he says, at the door. "Look it up."
The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, he finds an
explanation.
"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats,
shoots and leaves."

I love it! I really need to read it I guess!
Later,
Chris
99BBB

"Davoud" > wrote in message
...
> Stephen Toth wrote:
>
>> On the topic of fuel grade and mileage-
>> I presently have an 06 GT 6AT and always use premium. (90-91 octane).
>> My experience over the years is that with a compression ratio of a
>> little over 10:1, it is best to stay with premium. As noted, modern
>> electronics will retard the timing to accommodate the lower octane and
>> prevent detonation, but you loose performance and fuel mileage as a
>> result.
>
> I think that a small performance hit is irrelevant off the track,
> except perhaps psychologically. How often do you drive in such a manner
> as to need every last bit of performance your Miata can provide? If you
> drive in that manner, where do you do it? If we wanted exotic
> performance at a bargain price we would have bought 'Vettes, no? Fuel
> economy is quite relevant, however. Is the mpg difference between
> premium and regular fuel so great as to make it more expensive to drive
> with regular-grade fuel? Can you quantify the difference over an
> extended period of mixed city/suburban/highway driving?
>
> ("Loose" as a verb means to release, set free, let go. I think you
> meant "lose performance," which means to not have as much performance
> as one had previously.)
>
>> With the '93 I drove for 180k miles I alway used mid grade (89 octane
>> around here). Did a few mileage runs with regular and mid and thought
>> the mid fuel economy was better and that the engine sounded better with
>> mid.
>
> If you did mileage runs you shouldn't have "thought" anything; you
> should have some hard data. The problem is that you and I can't easily
> collect hard data--starting with the fuel tank empty and disconnected
> and fuel coming from a carefully calibrated container and driving over
> a closed course until the car runs out of gas--and doing this
> repeatedly with identical speeds and braking at each point, using
> different grades and brands of petrol. Not to mention identical loads,
> same temperature and humidity...
>
> Real-world testing is inaccurate because of significant variance
> between the quantity of fuel in one "full tank" and the next and
> because of significant variance in the kind of driving one does. The
> only way I know of to get a reasonable real-world estimate of fuel
> consumption is to measure carefully for about one year. Then use a
> different grade of gasoline for the next year. If you live in Kansas
> and decide to visit the Rockies one year, (or vice-versa) you are going
> to have to do the same thing each subsequent year. Repeat for each
> grade and brand of fuel you want to test, and after perhaps 10 years
> you might have some reasonable approximations. But then you run up
> against the problem of an aging system; perhaps there is a way to
> calibrate for that, but I don't know what it is.
>
> People want to know what kind of mileage I get from my Prius. I have to
> tell them that I /think/ it's between 45 and 55, depending on
> conditions--but I'm not sure. What conditions? I don't know. I haven't
> checked my Miata for years, but see above.
>
>> My son still has it as a daily driver at around 220k miles, and it
>> is still running strong. Also note that I am particular about where I
>> get the gas also. I avoid the discount fuel stations and try to stick
>> with top name brands of fuel. I know that they all get it from the same
>> refineries, and most of the additive talk from one brand to the next is
>> a bunch of bull. Just found that over the years, the name brand
>> stations tend to be more consistent with what you get, and seldom cause
>> issues with extra moisture or dirt from running their tanks too low.
>> The non brand name stations are cheaper because they will cut more
>> corners, and what you get may not be what they say you are getting.
>> After all, they take bulk delivery of whatever the tanker is carrying
>> after the name brand outlets have gotten their quota.
>
> It's hard to argue with 220k miles and running strong! Off-brand fuel
> is cheaper largely because the seller profits from high-volume. If one
> is to do that and succeed, one cannot let one's tanks run dry, and they
> don't. I can't guarantee that every off-brand petrol is equivalent to
> premium brands, but on average the differences are due largely to urban
> legend. My wife buys mid-grade fuel from premium names for her Avalon.
> I buy the cheapest I can find for my Miata and my Prius, as I have done
> with all of my cars that did not absolutely demand premium-grade fuel.
> No ill effects over the past 46 years, but I don't know what tomorrow
> will bring.
>
>> As for your mpg. It sounds about right. Some have claimed better even
>> with the AT, but I average 28 to 30 mpg in my normal driving. Have seen
>> it as high as 34 to 36 on long interstate drives, and as low as 24-25
>> with a lot of stop and go in winter when the gas around here has extra
>> oxygenators added (ethanol) to meet emission standards. That ethanol
>> just doesn't have the same energy density as gas, so the more there is
>> the lower the fuel mileage.
>
> Oxygenation <> ethanol.
>
> Davoud
>
> Myth Buster
>
> --
> usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

In article >, Davoud >
wrote:

Davoud, it is hard to determine exactly how to take your posts.
I do not know you yet, so will reserve judgment, but you make it
difficult to believe that you do not try to be argumentative and
authoritarian.
I am often accused of the same.

> Stephen Toth wrote:
>
> > On the topic of fuel grade and mileage-
> > I presently have an 06 GT 6AT and always use premium. (90-91 octane).
> > My experience over the years is that with a compression ratio of a
> > little over 10:1, it is best to stay with premium. As noted, modern
> > electronics will retard the timing to accommodate the lower octane and
> > prevent detonation, but you loose performance and fuel mileage as a
> > result.
>
> I think that a small performance hit is irrelevant off the track,
> except perhaps psychologically. How often do you drive in such a manner
> as to need every last bit of performance your Miata can provide? If you
> drive in that manner, where do you do it? If we wanted exotic
> performance at a bargain price we would have bought 'Vettes, no? Fuel
> economy is quite relevant, however. Is the mpg difference between
> premium and regular fuel so great as to make it more expensive to drive
> with regular-grade fuel? Can you quantify the difference over an
> extended period of mixed city/suburban/highway driving?

Regarding performance -
This is a Miata. Performance for a Miata is not straight line
performance, and no I do not drive it to the limit all the time. I do
drive it to the limits of my ability and its ability in spots most
every time I take it out. That means letting the engine go up into its
power band >5k rpm in spots. That is usually on entrance and exit
ramps, but also includes some wonderful 2 lane blacktop. It does not
mean exceeding the speed limiet, but means finding the line through a
turn at the maximum speed I can achieve.
There are also times on the interstate or when using those entrance and
exit ramps that I want all that the car can deliver so as not to
endanger myself or other drivers. At those times, a few percentage
difference in hp at a given rpm may be important.

But ultimately, if you want the a fixed answer about fuel grade, my
owner's manual calls for premium, and I am sure that they did all the
necessary scientific tests.
>
> ("Loose" as a verb means to release, set free, let go. I think you
> meant "lose performance," which means to not have as much performance
> as one had previously.)

Yes, I made a grammer mistake and all of these modern computer tools
did not catch it for me. I am human.
>
> > With the '93 I drove for 180k miles I alway used mid grade (89 octane
> > around here). Did a few mileage runs with regular and mid and thought
> > the mid fuel economy was better and that the engine sounded better with
> > mid.
>
> If you did mileage runs you shouldn't have "thought" anything; you
> should have some hard data. The problem is that you and I can't easily
> collect hard data--starting with the fuel tank empty and disconnected
> and fuel coming from a carefully calibrated container and driving over
> a closed course until the car runs out of gas--and doing this
> repeatedly with identical speeds and braking at each point, using
> different grades and brands of petrol. Not to mention identical loads,
> same temperature and humidity...
>
> Real-world testing is inaccurate because of significant variance
> between the quantity of fuel in one "full tank" and the next and
> because of significant variance in the kind of driving one does. The
> only way I know of to get a reasonable real-world estimate of fuel
> consumption is to measure carefully for about one year. Then use a
> different grade of gasoline for the next year. If you live in Kansas
> and decide to visit the Rockies one year, (or vice-versa) you are going
> to have to do the same thing each subsequent year. Repeat for each
> grade and brand of fuel you want to test, and after perhaps 10 years
> you might have some reasonable approximations. But then you run up
> against the problem of an aging system; perhaps there is a way to
> calibrate for that, but I don't know what it is.
>
> People want to know what kind of mileage I get from my Prius. I have to
> tell them that I /think/ it's between 45 and 55, depending on
> conditions--but I'm not sure. What conditions? I don't know. I haven't
> checked my Miata for years, but see above.

I did not claim scientific accuracy or any absolute. I offered the same
syntax that you offered regarding the mileage of you Prius.
Mine:
> and thought
> > > the mid fuel economy was better
Yours:
> I have to
> > tell them that I /think/ it's between 45 and 55

The difference that I observed with a few tests was only 1-2 mpg.
The difference in price between the 2 grades in my area is such that I
decided to use the mid grade. YMMV.

>
> > My son still has it as a daily driver at around 220k miles, and it
> > is still running strong. Also note that I am particular about where I
> > get the gas also. I avoid the discount fuel stations and try to stick
> > with top name brands of fuel. I know that they all get it from the same
> > refineries, and most of the additive talk from one brand to the next is
> > a bunch of bull. Just found that over the years, the name brand
> > stations tend to be more consistent with what you get, and seldom cause
> > issues with extra moisture or dirt from running their tanks too low.
> > The non brand name stations are cheaper because they will cut more
> > corners, and what you get may not be what they say you are getting.
> > After all, they take bulk delivery of whatever the tanker is carrying
> > after the name brand outlets have gotten their quota.
>
> It's hard to argue with 220k miles and running strong! Off-brand fuel
> is cheaper largely because the seller profits from high-volume.

That may be with some, and you may have worked in retail fuel channels,
and have specific knowledge.
I am not an expert and have not worked in that field myself. I am
passing on information I have received from someone who does work in
the retail fuel industry. As passed on from that source, all fuels are
refined to the same specs at the refinery. Specific additives are added
after the basic refining to meet specific brands requirements
(marketing?). Tankers are dispatched with the "custom" blend to the
name brand outlets first. Discount outlets take whatever is available,
or basic refining without the additives to get a better bulk purchasing
price so that they can retail at a lower price.
Based on that you may get no additives, or the same as the name brand
outlet.
Whether or not you find the additives worth while is up to you. It is
also open to debate as to whether the tankers are dedicated to a single
brand and grade to ensure no dilution of the specific blend. the
information I was given is that is Not the case.

> If one
> is to do that and succeed, one cannot let one's tanks run dry, and they
> don't. I can't guarantee that every off-brand petrol is equivalent to
> premium brands, but on average the differences are due largely to urban
> legend. My wife buys mid-grade fuel from premium names for her Avalon.
> I buy the cheapest I can find for my Miata and my Prius, as I have done
> with all of my cars that did not absolutely demand premium-grade fuel.
> No ill effects over the past 46 years, but I don't know what tomorrow
> will bring.

My bad experiences with discount gas occurred before modern engine
management, and may not show immediately or at all with modern engines.
Having a car stop running due to bad fuel has stopped me from using
them.
In one particular case, the car stopped running within about 3 miles of
a purchase of discount regular. Spark and fuel were present at the
engine. The problem was corrected by adding 2 gallons of premium name
brand fuel. It was not cold enough for carburator icing, or fuel line
icing. Nothing else was changed. You can make of that what you will. I
made my conclusion and will stay with it.

>
> > As for your mpg. It sounds about right. Some have claimed better even
> > with the AT, but I average 28 to 30 mpg in my normal driving. Have seen
> > it as high as 34 to 36 on long interstate drives, and as low as 24-25
> > with a lot of stop and go in winter when the gas around here has extra
> > oxygenators added (ethanol) to meet emission standards. That ethanol
> > just doesn't have the same energy density as gas, so the more there is
> > the lower the fuel mileage.
>
> Oxygenation <> ethanol.

I did not claim that Oxygenation = ethanol. I said that in my area they
add more ethanol in the winter to meet EPA emission standards. I did
use the word "oxygenators" since that is the terminology that the EPA
and the fuel suppliers use to describe what they are doing to the fuel
to reduce emissions.
>
> Davoud
>
> Myth Buster

--
-------
Stephen Toth
white '93 220k mi. with the kids
'06 Galaxy Grey GT 6AT

Stephen Toth wrote:

> Yes, I made a grammer mistake and all of these modern computer tools
> did not catch it for me. I am human.

That mention of a grammar mistake is where he finally lost me.

Wee cann wandur off-topik sumtymes, butt knowbodie iz hear seaking
Englush lesuns.

Lots of typos, lots of misusing "there, their, & they're", as well as
"to, too, and two" and many other mistakes in people's writing on usenet.
Somehow I always know what they are talking about even without the
self-appointed usenet English teacher Mr. Davoud stepping in.

I believe that Davoud, as he said in an earlier post, should "get over
it". In this case, he should get over himself.
Just my opinion, of course. :-)

Speaking of opinions, my own opinion is that Davoud is an argumentative
prick, and yes, I have often been accused of being the same, so maybe it
takes one to know one.

I just hope that my attitude improves, rather than getting worse as I
get closer to his age, assuming that I make it that long.

With an attitude like his at age 65, it will not ever change, which
probably pleases him greatly, but it almost has to be pure hell for the
average person that he encounters if they have to put up with it for
more than say, 10 minutes.

Pat

On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 23:55:21 -0500, "Chris D'Agnolo" >
wrote:

>...Have you read the book: "Eats, Shoots & Leaves" by any chance? If
>your sense of humor is half as good as your attention to grammar (I know,
>it's probably not the correct word), I think you'd enjoy it. To be honest, I
>haven't read it myself....

But if you read that one, you should immediately follow up with "Eats, ****es &
Leaves: Crap English and How to Use It," by Antal Parody.

-- Larry

Nice! I'll put it on my list ;-)

Chris
99BBB
>
> But if you read that one, you should immediately follow up with "Eats,
> ****es &
> Leaves: Crap English and How to Use It," by Antal Parody.
>
> -- Larry