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Shifter technique



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 21st 05, 06:43 PM posted to rec.autos.driving
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Default Shifter technique


gpsman wrote:

>
> You can make diagonal moves with the shift lever, of course. I'm
> unaware of any linkage designed for that particular move. Some cars
> have shift "gates" designed to prevent the driver from making less than
> "positive" (90 degree angle) shifts.
> -----


Well... this may be cranking up the wayback machine a little bit, but
there were at one time aftermarket shifters available for "standard"
(i.e. 3-speed manual) transmissions that were specifically designed
with stiff springs to throw the shift lever over into the 2-3 gate so
that 1-2 shifts could be completed with one fluid, diagonal motion.
The factory shifter on my Porsche 914 (and I would assume contemporary
911s, until they went to a conventional shift pattern) works exactly
the same way, with 4-5 being an additional gate to the right. You can
achieve a quick 1-2 shift simply by pushing the stick forward with the
heel of your hand. 2-1 downshifts can be done quickly as well, simply
by keeping leftward pressure on the stick while pulling back. (this is
ASSuming, of course, that whatever transmission we're discussing has a
synchronized first gear, which is true of the Porsche but not true of
many of the old American 3-speeds - in which case a double-clutch, or
if you feel like showing off, a clutchless rev-match, is a must.)

That said, unless one is racing, I would pause in neutral briefly to
let the synchros do their thing unless one really likes causing undue
stress on the transmixer's innards. Unless one is very familiar with
rev-matching and has some experience driving a "crash box" I wouldn't
drive a synchro box like that.

nate

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  #12  
Old December 21st 05, 10:09 PM posted to rec.autos.driving
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Default Shifter technique



Old Wolf wrote:

> This page:
>
> http://www.answers.com/topic/manual-...ving-technique
>
> says that to move the shifter when changing gear you should
> (in this example, changing from 2nd to 3rd):
>
> "move the knob up to neutral, one column to the right, then up
> to the new position on the top row."
>
> I have observed people doing this in real life and it seems very slow
> and error-prone. I've seen people get to neutral and then
> occasionally have trouble getting to 3rd as opposed to 1st or 5th.
>
> The way I was taught is: hold your palm out flat, and push/pull
> the shifter in one smooth diagonal motion with the fleshy bit of
> your palm. When doing this, my shoulder moves but my hand,
> wrist and forearm stay relatively rigid, and my hand moves in a
> straight line (not up-sideways-up).
> It results in a fast shift and it never goes wrong. My instructor
> described it as a "slap", it is quite similar to slapping the shifter
> knob, except you keep on pushing after the first contact.
>
> Changing from 1-2 and 2-1 still involves the diagonal push (or pull
> if you are in a left-hand-drive car, I imagine), that way it can
> never go wrong and accidentally select 4 instead of 2, etc.


Most gearboxes are 'biased' to 3rd - 4th anyway.

To change from 2nd to 3rd just needs the gear knob to be lighly pushed
'upwards'. I sometimes do it with just a couple of fingers. It'll drop
into the gate for 3rd naturally.

Selecting 5th *does* require a conscious selection of the gate though. As
does initially engaging 1st.

Graham


  #13  
Old December 21st 05, 10:11 PM posted to rec.autos.driving
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Default Shifter technique



Old Wolf wrote:

< snip >

> Changing from 1-2 and 2-1 still involves the diagonal push (or pull
> if you are in a left-hand-drive car, I imagine), that way it can
> never go wrong and accidentally select 4 instead of 2, etc.


Eh ?

To move 1-2 or 2-1 just push forwards or rearwards, ensuring the biasing
spring doesn't move it towards 3-4.

Graham


  #14  
Old December 21st 05, 10:21 PM posted to rec.autos.driving
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Default Shifter technique



"Scott en Aztlán" wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:28:29 -0500, "Mike T." >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Old Wolf" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >> This page:
> >>
> >> http://www.answers.com/topic/manual-...ving-technique
> >>
> >> says that to move the shifter when changing gear you should
> >> (in this example, changing from 2nd to 3rd):
> >>
> >> "move the knob up to neutral, one column to the right, then up
> >> to the new position on the top row."
> >>

> >
> >OK, you are dealing with an author (on the answers.com web page) who doesn't
> >know how to drive a manual transmission vehicle and you are observing people
> >in real life who ALSO don't know how to drive a manual transmission vehicle.

>
> If your transmission does not have synchros (or they are worn
> out/broken) wouldn't you have to do precisely what was described
> (along with appropriate clutch disengaging/reengaging and
> rev-matching)?


When did you last come across a non-synchro box ? Other than in an historic
vehicle perhaps ?

Graham


  #15  
Old December 21st 05, 10:23 PM posted to rec.autos.driving
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Posts: n/a
Default Shifter technique

In article .com>,
"gpsman" > wrote:

> Alan Baker wrote:
> > "gpsman" > wrote:

>
> > > The quickness of a shift is not as important as accuracy. The
> > > instructions are correct for accuracy as well as reducing linkage
> > > wear/tear. You should actually "find" neutral before selecting the
> > > next gear. Experience will reduce or eliminate inaccuracy.

> >
> > Utter nonsense. "Neutral" isn't a position left or right; only forward
> > and backward. You "find" it every time you move the gear lever from one
> > gear to the next regardless of how long you take.

>
> *Utter nonsense*?!
>
> I stand corrected. It's better to shift to the wrong gear fast than
> the correct gear in more time...? Guess I just lost my mind for a
> moment.


People who do it correctly never shift into the wrong gear. I've never
shifted into the wrong gear, so don't blame me for your incompetence.

>
> > > You can make diagonal moves with the shift lever, of course. I'm
> > > unaware of any linkage designed for that particular move. Some cars

> >
> > It doesn't sound like you're the slightest bit aware of what is actually
> > going on inside a shift linkage actually.

>
> Well, maybe not. I just know none of the parts of *my* linkages move
> diagonally.


And none of it has to. The diagonal motion of the shift knob is a
combination of the fore/aft motion of the shift rods with the left/right
slide of the selector finger within the a particular rod's slot.

> >
> > > have shift "gates" designed to prevent the driver from making less than
> > > "positive" (90 degree angle) shifts.

> >
> > Ferraris do, but the gates are rounded to allow precisely the kind of
> > motion that the previous poster was talking about.

>
> You mean like in this Lotus? Maybe my eyes need calibration but...
>
> http://www.juststuff.freehosting.net.../lotusgate.jpg


Yup. Your eyes apparently need calibration. Notice that the ends of all
"fingers" are rounded. So you push/pull diagonally and the lever moves
forward until it reaches the area where the rounding begins and then it
moves laterally as it continues to move forward or back.

>
> or http://tinyurl.com/d9x7x
> -----
>
> - gpsman
>
> Gotta love your sig tho...


--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
  #16  
Old December 22nd 05, 02:22 AM posted to rec.autos.driving
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Posts: n/a
Default Shifter technique

Pooh Bear wrote:
>
> "Scott en Aztlán" wrote:
>
>
>>On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:28:29 -0500, "Mike T." >
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Old Wolf" > wrote in message
groups.com...
>>>
>>>>This page:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.answers.com/topic/manual-...ving-technique
>>>>
>>>>says that to move the shifter when changing gear you should
>>>>(in this example, changing from 2nd to 3rd):
>>>>
>>>> "move the knob up to neutral, one column to the right, then up
>>>> to the new position on the top row."
>>>>
>>>
>>>OK, you are dealing with an author (on the answers.com web page) who doesn't
>>>know how to drive a manual transmission vehicle and you are observing people
>>>in real life who ALSO don't know how to drive a manual transmission vehicle.

>>
>>If your transmission does not have synchros (or they are worn
>>out/broken) wouldn't you have to do precisely what was described
>>(along with appropriate clutch disengaging/reengaging and
>>rev-matching)?

>
>
> When did you last come across a non-synchro box ? Other than in an historic
> vehicle perhaps ?
>
> Graham
>
>


My '84 GTI had no 2nd gear synchro. I think it had one when it left
Westmoreland, but it didn't by the time I got it :/

A lot of 3-speed sticks didn't have first gear synchros until the
mid-late 60s but then again usually you didn't use first gear unless you
were starting from a dead stop.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel
  #17  
Old December 22nd 05, 09:09 AM posted to rec.autos.driving
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Posts: n/a
Default Shifter technique



Nate Nagel wrote:

> Pooh Bear wrote:
> >
> > "Scott en Aztlán" wrote:
> >
> >
> >>On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:28:29 -0500, "Mike T." >
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>"Old Wolf" > wrote in message
> groups.com...
> >>>
> >>>>This page:
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.answers.com/topic/manual-...ving-technique
> >>>>
> >>>>says that to move the shifter when changing gear you should
> >>>>(in this example, changing from 2nd to 3rd):
> >>>>
> >>>> "move the knob up to neutral, one column to the right, then up
> >>>> to the new position on the top row."
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>OK, you are dealing with an author (on the answers.com web page) who doesn't
> >>>know how to drive a manual transmission vehicle and you are observing people
> >>>in real life who ALSO don't know how to drive a manual transmission vehicle.
> >>
> >>If your transmission does not have synchros (or they are worn
> >>out/broken) wouldn't you have to do precisely what was described
> >>(along with appropriate clutch disengaging/reengaging and
> >>rev-matching)?

> >
> >
> > When did you last come across a non-synchro box ? Other than in an historic
> > vehicle perhaps ?
> >
> > Graham
> >
> >

>
> My '84 GTI had no 2nd gear synchro. I think it had one when it left
> Westmoreland, but it didn't by the time I got it :/
>
> A lot of 3-speed sticks didn't have first gear synchros until the
> mid-late 60s but then again usually you didn't use first gear unless you
> were starting from a dead stop.


Goodness.

My first car was a '66 IIRC 1500cc ( the larger engine ) Ford Cortina. It had a 4
speed box with full synchromesh. Nice box in fact. British Fords of that era and
later for some time were noted for nice gearboxes with lovely changes.

Graham

  #18  
Old December 22nd 05, 05:07 PM posted to rec.autos.driving
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Posts: n/a
Default Shifter technique


Pooh Bear wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
> > Pooh Bear wrote:
> > >
> > > "Scott en Aztlán" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >>On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:28:29 -0500, "Mike T." >
> > >>wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>"Old Wolf" > wrote in message
> > groups.com...
> > >>>
> > >>>>This page:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> http://www.answers.com/topic/manual-...ving-technique
> > >>>>
> > >>>>says that to move the shifter when changing gear you should
> > >>>>(in this example, changing from 2nd to 3rd):
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "move the knob up to neutral, one column to the right, then up
> > >>>> to the new position on the top row."
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>OK, you are dealing with an author (on the answers.com web page) whodoesn't
> > >>>know how to drive a manual transmission vehicle and you are observing people
> > >>>in real life who ALSO don't know how to drive a manual transmission vehicle.
> > >>
> > >>If your transmission does not have synchros (or they are worn
> > >>out/broken) wouldn't you have to do precisely what was described
> > >>(along with appropriate clutch disengaging/reengaging and
> > >>rev-matching)?
> > >
> > >
> > > When did you last come across a non-synchro box ? Other than in an historic
> > > vehicle perhaps ?
> > >
> > > Graham
> > >
> > >

> >
> > My '84 GTI had no 2nd gear synchro. I think it had one when it left
> > Westmoreland, but it didn't by the time I got it :/
> >
> > A lot of 3-speed sticks didn't have first gear synchros until the
> > mid-late 60s but then again usually you didn't use first gear unless you
> > were starting from a dead stop.

>
> Goodness.
>
> My first car was a '66 IIRC 1500cc ( the larger engine ) Ford Cortina. Ithad a 4
> speed box with full synchromesh. Nice box in fact. British Fords of that era and
> later for some time were noted for nice gearboxes with lovely changes.
>
> Graham


Over here a lot of transmissions were off the shelf units, Borg-Warner
units were especially popular. I am sure that at least the T-85 and
T-86 had non-synchro first gears; however, the T-85 based T-10 4-speed
and probably most subsequent designs were all synchro. I'm not sure
about Muncie, Saginaw, et. al. transmissions...

nate

  #19  
Old December 23rd 05, 09:25 AM posted to rec.autos.driving
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Posts: n/a
Default Shifter technique


"Scott en Aztlán" wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:28:29 -0500, "Mike T." >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Old Wolf" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >> This page:
> >>
> >> http://www.answers.com/topic/manual-...ving-technique
> >>
> >> says that to move the shifter when changing gear you should
> >> (in this example, changing from 2nd to 3rd):
> >>
> >> "move the knob up to neutral, one column to the right, then up
> >> to the new position on the top row."
> >>

> >
> >OK, you are dealing with an author (on the answers.com web page) who doesn't
> >know how to drive a manual transmission vehicle and you are observing people
> >in real life who ALSO don't know how to drive a manual transmission vehicle.

>
> If your transmission does not have synchros (or they are worn
> out/broken) wouldn't you have to do precisely what was described
> (along with appropriate clutch disengaging/reengaging and
> rev-matching)?


If the synchros are gone in the modern/contemporary manual tranny you ain't gonna
get it in gear trust me.

The 3rd gear synchro died FAST on my Toyota sedan and believe me I'm a quarter
century experienced driver with a clutch and I tried every bag in the book to get
the sonofabitch to go into 3rd when she was dying...... bitch wasn't gonna go in
with that synchro dying......and I was left revving up on 2nd then bogging on
4th..... till I bit the bullet and got the replacement tranny.....



  #20  
Old December 23rd 05, 09:30 AM posted to rec.autos.driving
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Posts: n/a
Default Shifter technique

In article >, SlipperySlope >
wrote:

> "Scott en Aztlán" wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:28:29 -0500, "Mike T." >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Old Wolf" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > >> This page:
> > >>
> > >> http://www.answers.com/topic/manual-...ving-technique
> > >>
> > >> says that to move the shifter when changing gear you should
> > >> (in this example, changing from 2nd to 3rd):
> > >>
> > >> "move the knob up to neutral, one column to the right, then up
> > >> to the new position on the top row."
> > >>
> > >
> > >OK, you are dealing with an author (on the answers.com web page) who
> > >doesn't
> > >know how to drive a manual transmission vehicle and you are observing
> > >people
> > >in real life who ALSO don't know how to drive a manual transmission
> > >vehicle.

> >
> > If your transmission does not have synchros (or they are worn
> > out/broken) wouldn't you have to do precisely what was described
> > (along with appropriate clutch disengaging/reengaging and
> > rev-matching)?

>
> If the synchros are gone in the modern/contemporary manual tranny you ain't
> gonna
> get it in gear trust me.
>
> The 3rd gear synchro died FAST on my Toyota sedan and believe me I'm a
> quarter
> century experienced driver with a clutch and I tried every bag in the book to
> get
> the sonofabitch to go into 3rd when she was dying...... bitch wasn't gonna go
> in
> with that synchro dying......and I was left revving up on 2nd then bogging on
> 4th..... till I bit the bullet and got the replacement tranny.....


If your car had blocker synchros that failed in such a way as to be in
the blocked position, I could see that happening. Otherwise, nope.

Shifting without synchros isn't *that* hard.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
 




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