deposit on rocker clips?

"goose" > wrote in message
om...
> "Simon Cussonnet" > wrote in message
>...
>
> <snipped description of problem: creamy deposit in head>
>
> > Are the cams slightly worn out ?
>
> yes, very slightly, I believe (due to being very
> afraid of adjusting with too small a clearance).
>
> > Is the amount of mayonaise rather important
> > ?
>
> I dont know, which is why I'm humbly asking assistance :-)
>
> > Was the cover stained inside ?
>
> no.
>
> > If yes,
>
> "yes" to which one of the above questions? I've answered
> "yes", "dont know" and "no" ;-). I suspect that you mean number
> 3 only.
>
> > you've probably a crack in the head.
> > If they don't appear, take care, they could become quickly.
> > It could also be condensation. I don't believe so.

> Oh dear! Now you've frightened me. This is an ancient car with no
> warrantee(sp?) at all; A crack in the head of this car is a death-knell
> for the entire car.

I don't agree with Simons diagnosis. If the head were cracked as he
suggests. I would have expected you to comment on a loss of water. The fact
that you haven't, leads me to believe that he's alarmed you unnecessarily,
without sufficient evidence to support his belief.
Any loss of water due to a cracked cylinder head, would show itself by a
frequent need to top up the radiator.

I still think the creamy deposit is more likely to be caused by condensation
than anything else. 20k is probably enough for the engine to reach it's full
running temperature, but IMO it's still too short a time to evaporate all
the condensed water that might have accumulated within the engine overnight.

Your address suggest you are in SA. Hot humid days with chilly nights gives
the worst scenario for condensation, so maybe your car is more affected than
the norm in the uk.
Mike.

Yes to all the above questions because in case of water in the oil, coming
from the head, the cams are the closest parts under friction. They first,
will be submitted to wear. This is a consequence of the leak.
In case of mayonnaise in quantity enough (soup spoon or more), widely
spread, with accumulation in the areas where no movement, especially in the
corners of the cover and around the cap spring, you've more likely a
problem.
If just a whitish deposit not widely spread, it's possibly condensation.

I'm talking by experience on my own car. Mechanichal experts would be wiser.

Anyway, after a thorough cleaning, you'd rather keep inspecting inside the
cover for weeks or months. In case of water losses, ring the bell and go to
see more deeply.

Sorry, my intention wasn't to scare you. It could be also a loosen bolt or
the head gasket itself or I hope for you, nothing more than condensation.
By the way, what was the reason why you dismounted the cover ? oil leak ?
Did you clean the engine with a high pressure cleaner (Karcher) a short
while prior to working on the head ?

Bye


"goose" > a écrit dans le message news:
...
> "Simon Cussonnet" > wrote in message
>...
>
> <snipped description of problem: creamy deposit in head>
>
> > Are the cams slightly worn out ?
>
> yes, very slightly, I believe (due to being very
> afraid of adjusting with too small a clearance).
>
> > Is the amount of mayonaise rather important
> > ?
>
> I dont know, which is why I'm humbly asking assistance :-)
>
> > Was the cover stained inside ?
>
> no.
>
> > If yes,
>
> "yes" to which one of the above questions? I've answered
> "yes", "dont know" and "no" ;-). I suspect that you mean number
> 3 only.
>
[...]
>
> Oh dear! Now you've frightened me. This is an ancient car with no
> warrantee(sp?) at all; A crack in the head of this car is a death-knell
> for the entire car.
>
> >
> > Good luck
>
> thanks, and thanks for your reply as well,
> goose

"Mike G" > wrote in message >...

<snipped>

> I don't agree with Simons diagnosis. If the head were cracked as he
> suggests. I would have expected you to comment on a loss of water. The fact
> that you haven't, leads me to believe that he's alarmed you unnecessarily,

No water loss (well, no more than usual - I check once a month, and generally
have to add half a litre every three months or so; +-4000km) AFAICT.

Lets just say that I wont rule out a small crack in the head /yet/.

> without sufficient evidence to support his belief.
> Any loss of water due to a cracked cylinder head, would show itself by a
> frequent need to top up the radiator.
>
> I still think the creamy deposit is more likely to be caused by condensation
> than anything else. 20k is probably enough for the engine to reach it's full
> running temperature, but IMO it's still too short a time to evaporate all
> the condensed water that might have accumulated within the engine overnight.
>
> Your address suggest you are in SA. Hot humid days with chilly nights gives
> the worst scenario for condensation, so maybe your car is more affected than
> the norm in the uk.

Well, I do travel to the coast once a month (*very* humid and *very*
hot - Skukuza reached 39deg celcius last week, durban reached 37deg
celcius) but the nighttimes aren't too chilly (+-18deg celcius in summer,
sometimes going to +30deg celcius).

Thanks for your insight

goose,
posting from SA

"Simon Cussonnet" > wrote in message >.. .
> Yes to all the above questions because in case of water in the oil, coming
> from the head, the cams are the closest parts under friction. They first,
> will be submitted to wear. This is a consequence of the leak.
> In case of mayonnaise in quantity enough (soup spoon or more), widely
> spread, with accumulation in the areas where no movement, especially in the
> corners of the cover and around the cap spring, you've more likely a
> problem.
> If just a whitish deposit not widely spread, it's possibly condensation.

We-ell ... it *was* found in an area with no movement, but not in any
significant quantity.

>
> I'm talking by experience on my own car. Mechanichal experts would be wiser.
>
> Anyway, after a thorough cleaning, you'd rather keep inspecting inside the
> cover for weeks or months. In case of water losses, ring the bell and go to
> see more deeply.

Would keep it in mind. Will check water more often.

>
> Sorry, my intention wasn't to scare you.

I'd rather take the safe route and very *cautiously* try to rule
out the worst case scenario (cracked head).

> It could be also a loosen bolt or
> the head gasket itself or I hope for you, nothing more than condensation.

I'm hoping too :-); I'd rather it was the head gasket than the head, though.

> By the way, what was the reason why you dismounted the cover ? oil leak ?

Yes, the tappet cover gasket was leaking quite badly. I suspect that
this is because when I last set the tappets (+-8000km ago), I should've
changed the gasket but didn't.

Is it possible that air being sucked in through the non-sealing
gasket would have caused the deposits? I only ask because when I
set the tappets, there were no deposits.

> Did you clean the engine with a high pressure cleaner (Karcher) a short
> while prior to working on the head ?

nope,

once again, thanks for taking the time to reply.

goose,

"Somebody" > wrote in message >...
> "goose" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Jim Levie > wrote in message
> >...
> > That could be; I vary rarely drive the car hard and I almost *never*
> > exceed 2000rpm. Once a month (sometimes twice, like this month) I drive
> > down to the coast. Its a 600km trip (one-way), but I generaly keep
> > to around 100km/h - 110km/h, which equates to around 2000rpm - 2200rpm.
> >
> > Is that not hard enough? The car has /very/ long legs, even in auto form
> > and I find that to maintain 3000rpm I've got to keep to a speed of around
> > 165km/h.
>
> No, that is nowhere near hard enough. You will have carbon deposits in your
> combustion chamber and the mayo you have seen. Wring it out once in a
> while... get it to where it's indicating normal operating temperature, and
> drop a gear or two. Get the revs up near the redline and let off the gas to
> let it engine brake a few times while maintaining the same gear. You might
> even see a white puff of smoke when you let off, that's burnt carbon (good).
> You don't need to go fast to do this, only to rev hard. That's what your
> transmission is for. Do this for 5 or 10 minutes, get things really
> ticking in there. BMW motors are literally designed to run like this.
>
> Once every couple of weeks should be enough.

Will keep this in mind.

>
> If that was your cracked block in the other post there though, I might have
> to take that back. You could cause a catastrophic failure of a weakend area
> by doing the above.
>
> Also, I've seen cases where the accumulated carbon was so bad, that the
> first hard run caused a valve to explode (piece came out) because of the
> very poor heat transfer caused by the excessive carbon. This happend when
> she went up a long hill once while in a very rare hurry on a car she never
> drove hard any other time. So you might want to work up to full heat
> cycling or perhaps do a wet soak first.
>

Excuse my ignorance; what is a "wet soak"?

thanks for your helpfull response

goose,

goose > wrote in message >...
> Hello all
>
> I've just changed the tappet cover gasket on my 1986 525e;
> I noticed that the clips that go over each rocker arm
> (flimsy looking metal thing) each seemed to have a
> light-coloured deposit (creamy).
>
> Any idea what this could be?
>
> (Learned *one* important thing tonight: when working
> at night in the summertime, close the garage doors
> before you pull off the tappet covers. It took me
> the best part of an hour to fish out three moths
> who suicidally flitted around the light hanging
> over the cylinder head)
>
> goose,
> the *moth* man prophecy

First off, let me thank everyone who responded: there were
no /unhelpfull/ responses. If I have not responded to a post
on this thread, please do not think that I have ignored it;
all the information presented here is helpfull.

My problem could be, IIRC all the posts, are as follows:
1. Cracked head (worst case scenario).
2. Bad head gasket.
3. Engine not running hot for long enough (best case).

My solutions are (IIR-all-posts-C):
1. Remove/examine head.
2. Run the car a little (give it some stick!).

What I've decided to do is to fill some UV-viewable dye
in the radiator, run the car until the next service is
due (possibly in december) and then examine the oil from
the oil change with a UV light.

The reason I'm not going to run the car harder than usual
is because, as someone pointed out, if there is even a
tiny crack in the head a hard run might just break everything.

And of course, I dont want to remove the head for an examination
until I know for sure that the water I find in the oil
is coming from the radiator.

Once again, my warm thanks to the helpfull regs of this ng.

goose,
Hopefully this summary helps future readers

"goose" > wrote in message
om...
> goose > wrote in message
>...
> > Hello all
> >
> > I've just changed the tappet cover gasket on my 1986 525e;
> > I noticed that the clips that go over each rocker arm
> > (flimsy looking metal thing) each seemed to have a
> > light-coloured deposit (creamy).

> First off, let me thank everyone who responded: there were
> no /unhelpfull/ responses. If I have not responded to a post
> on this thread, please do not think that I have ignored it;
> all the information presented here is helpfull.
>
> My problem could be, IIRC all the posts, are as follows:
> 1. Cracked head (worst case scenario).
> 2. Bad head gasket.
> 3. Engine not running hot for long enough (best case).
>
> My solutions are (IIR-all-posts-C):
> 1. Remove/examine head.
> 2. Run the car a little (give it some stick!).
>
> What I've decided to do is to fill some UV-viewable dye
> in the radiator, run the car until the next service is
> due (possibly in december) and then examine the oil from
> the oil change with a UV light.
>
> The reason I'm not going to run the car harder than usual
> is because, as someone pointed out, if there is even a
> tiny crack in the head a hard run might just break everything.

There's only a remote chance of that happening. Even if it were cracked.

If my posts suggested that you run the car harder than usual, it wasn't what
I meant.
All I was suggesting is that the engine needs a longer run at full engine
temperature to get rid of any build up of condensation.
Meaning any long run, even taking it easy, should clear the engine of
condensation, if that is the problem.

A simple check for a cracked head or leaky head gasket, is to have, what I
call a 'sniffer check', to check for traces of combustion gases in the
radiator..
Any decent garage should have the equpment to do this. It simply involves
replacing the rad cap with the device, which contains a chemical that
changes colour when exposed to combustion gases. A few minutes with the
engine running is all that is needed.

Only costs a few quid in the uk, but it might put your mind at rest sooner
than waiting for the result of your UV dye test. Not that I'm suggesting you
don't do the UV test anyway, because whilst a sniffer check is fairly
reliable, it is not 100% accurate. It would be unusual if it didn't show,
but it is possible to have a leak that the sniffer doesn't pick up.
Mike.

"goose" > a écrit dans le message news:
...
> goose > wrote in message
>...
> > Hello all

[..]

> What I've decided to do is to fill some UV-viewable dye
> in the radiator, run the car until the next service is
> due (possibly in december) and then examine the oil from
> the oil change with a UV light.

Congratulations, I didn't have such an idea. I keep this for future use in
case my memory fails.

Thanks

"Mike G" > a écrit dans le message news:
...
[...]

> A simple check for a cracked head or leaky head gasket, is to have, what I
> call a 'sniffer check', to check for traces of combustion gases in the
> radiator..
> Any decent garage should have the equpment to do this. It simply involves
> replacing the rad cap with the device, which contains a chemical that
> changes colour when exposed to combustion gases. A few minutes with the
> engine running is all that is needed.

This will work only if there's a leak between the cylinder and the coolong
circuit. In case of leak from the cooling circuit towards a lower pressure
id. inside the camshaft cover, this solution will be useless. However, I
also archive the post in case of future use. Nobody knows!


> Only costs a few quid in the uk, but it might put your mind at rest sooner
> than waiting for the result of your UV dye test. Not that I'm suggesting
you
> don't do the UV test anyway, because whilst a sniffer check is fairly
> reliable, it is not 100% accurate. It would be unusual if it didn't show,
> but it is possible to have a leak that the sniffer doesn't pick up.
> Mike.

"Mike G" > wrote in message >...
> "goose" > wrote in message om...

<snipped>

> > The reason I'm not going to run the car harder than usual
> > is because, as someone pointed out, if there is even a
> > tiny crack in the head a hard run might just break everything.
>
> There's only a remote chance of that happening. Even if it were cracked.

I know, but I dearly love my bmw, old though she may be, and dont
want to take even the remote chance :-)

<snipped clarification of long run>

>
> A simple check for a cracked head or leaky head gasket, is to have, what I
> call a 'sniffer check', to check for traces of combustion gases in the
> radiator..
> Any decent garage should have the equpment to do this. It simply involves
> replacing the rad cap with the device, which contains a chemical that
> changes colour when exposed to combustion gases. A few minutes with the
> engine running is all that is needed.

Hey, thats not a bad idea! I've just got to find a place in SA
to do that now ... having trouble getting hold of UV dye (tried
yesterday).

If any South Africans are reading this, could someone please
recommend a workshop that either has the UV dye or the combustion
gas detector?

>
> Only costs a few quid in the uk, but it might put your mind at rest sooner
> than waiting for the result of your UV dye test. Not that I'm suggesting you
> don't do the UV test anyway, because whilst a sniffer check is fairly
> reliable, it is not 100% accurate. It would be unusual if it didn't show,
> but it is possible to have a leak that the sniffer doesn't pick up.


Thanks for the suggestion, it /will/ set my mind more at ease :-)
(if it passes the test, of course).

Will check around

goose,
learning something new all the time