GTR - merciless analysis :)

"Tony Rickard" wrote...
>> <snip>
> Christ! Jan's been on a John Simmons' school of diplomacy course...

Other way around, more likely... or maybe we share a similar make-up, which
would account for our frequent clashes. <g>

>> <snip>
> The basic issues resided in the all F12k to GTR variants.
> Depsite their obvious differences in implementation. To
> me rfactor feels a different base engine, not just a
> different set of parameters fed into the same engine.
>
> As Mark eluded, feel is a hard thing to quantify, but
> rfactor feels different. Deep down, not just a rehash of
> an existing engine. I don't believe there is a set of
> paramaters a mod team could enter into the F1C engine
> that would feel the same.

And I say you're deluding yourself as I'm pretty sure I'm not letting my
"the masses are always wrong"-reflex guide me.

I see no evidence to suggest a major re-write was done with reference to F1
2k2 and F1C/GTR. To me the game has always had the potential to play this
way. ISI, possibly through having no outside interference (and control over
who played their early code), have delivered their most convincing game yet,
no question. I just don't see/experience any justification for the general
praise heaped upon them this time around other than people had a real go at
the game before dismissing it (also, they used to be more ahead of the
technology curve then they are now).

To me rFactor is a product of the enthousiasm they've always had for their
simulation being let off the reigns. Familiar with their engine like no
other, obviously, they've driven that advantage home in this implementation.
Other than fixing some of the more glaring issues with the online game
(especially in dedicated server mode), I experience no measureable
difference, sorry.

Which is not to say the potential isn't there if they're willing to listen
to their veterans (like me, I might shamelessly add).

Jan.
=---

"Jan Verschueren" > wrote in message
...
>
> "buster" wrote...
> >> <snip>
> > do you have all the aids and speed sensitivity off?
>
> No, I have 12% speed sensitivity, so I can take my eyes off the road on
the
> straights, but I use the exact same setting in the 3 games (even a bit
more
> if I'm really driving the F1s in F1C).

Adjust the steering lock in the garage and the car will feel a lot more
stable.

If you don't know about this key setting with the ISI sims (along with the x
axis setting), it's hard to judge how good or realistic their sims feel. :-)
I've been saying this for a few years now. :-p Seriously though, without
these set correctly for whatever type wheel someone is using, a person will
struggle and have a completely screwed up opinion of the driving model.

For example, I used to use a Ferrari FF wheel, but now I use a MS FF. They
require completely different steering lock settings. Higher for the Ferrari,
lower for MS. If I used the Ferrari steering lock settings with my MS wheel,
I'd have an extremely loose and super sensitive car, and would hate the way
it felt. The MS wheel has a shorter turning radius.

BTW, nothing wrong though with using some speed sensitivity.
--
David G Fisher

"David G Fisher" wrote...
>> <snip>
> Welll it's definitely a new and different engine. Not the same
> as F1C, or GTR.
>
> From what I've read though, the multiplayer demo may not even
> be the full package physics wise. It still feels pretty great
> as is though.

Oh, c'mon Dave, not you too...

Jan.
=---

"Jan Verschueren" wrote:

> And I say you're deluding yourself as I'm pretty sure I'm not letting my
> "the masses are always wrong"-reflex guide me.

I have stated on several occasions that the F12k-GTR engined sims have never
worked for me. As an Alfa 156 owner I really wanted the ETCC mod to be the
next GPL!

Out of the box rfactor feels different. I could have recognised any old ISI
engine sim - be if F1, Alfa 147s, ETCC, GTR2002 and so on as being exactly
that. Rfactor does not feel like an F1C mod. I am not suggesting it is the
messiah of the sim world, but it certainly has potential which I never saw
in the previous ISI engine.

Having siad all that I felt I was in a minority that didn't rate the ISI
engine in the same league as the Papy engined sims. For whatever reasons it
didn't work for me (my wheel setup, brain whatever) and rfactor does may not
exist for others.

I am firmly of the view that there is a fundamental difference in the engine
and not simply some different parameters keyed in for a specific vehicle
simulation.

Cheers
Tony

"Jan Verschueren" wrote:

> So please don't imply I'm not able to tune a particular sim to my rig,
> thanks.

I am just the Cole Trickle "I just drive it" of MARA, Jan

wrt Rfactor I think we *both* could be right. From the website:

"Is the physics engine all new for rFactor?

There are some new components to the physics engine, but our main focus has
been to realize the full potential of the driving experience. We wanted to
improve the sense of speed, and have the user feel the bumps in the road and
the air rushing by. We accomplished this by developing several areas, from
audio to camera work to the physics themselves. I think that people will
find that we've polished this technology and taken care of some of the
oddities experienced in previous products."

I think it depends how you achieve the feeling of the physics model. I don't
use FF so any similarities in design here will be lost on me. The impact of
the audio and visuals developments as well as the physics changes will
therefore have a more profound effect. The "magic factor" missing for me and
now at least partly in place may not have been missing for you.

Cheers
Tony

*wonders if Jan has ever seen "Days of Thunder" *

How long has it been since that movie first came out?

Like 12 to 14 years ago...

Dang I'm getting old.

rinda



"Tony Rickard" > wrote in message
. uk...
> "Jan Verschueren" wrote:
>
> > So please don't imply I'm not able to tune a particular sim to my rig,
> > thanks.
>
> I am just the Cole Trickle "I just drive it" of MARA, Jan
>
> wrt Rfactor I think we *both* could be right. From the website:
>
> "Is the physics engine all new for rFactor?
>
> There are some new components to the physics engine, but our main focus
has
> been to realize the full potential of the driving experience. We wanted to
> improve the sense of speed, and have the user feel the bumps in the road
and
> the air rushing by. We accomplished this by developing several areas, from
> audio to camera work to the physics themselves. I think that people will
> find that we've polished this technology and taken care of some of the
> oddities experienced in previous products."
>
> I think it depends how you achieve the feeling of the physics model. I
don't
> use FF so any similarities in design here will be lost on me. The impact
of
> the audio and visuals developments as well as the physics changes will
> therefore have a more profound effect. The "magic factor" missing for me
and
> now at least partly in place may not have been missing for you.
>
> Cheers
> Tony
>
>

"Tony Rickard" wrote...
>> <snip>
>
> My biggest issue with the ISI engine used since F12k is a lack
> of throttle response. I.e. lift off and the wheels carry on
> spinning.

Though a popular complaint, I have never experienced any appreciable control
lag in ISI games. Perhaps there are steps the developers can take to combat
this for users having certain exotic input devices, but my TM NasPro,
(original) LWFF and (original) Logitech MOMO have not displayed this
characteristic unless I overstepped the eye-candy vs performance limit of my
configuration with reference to the game. Although, this said and as a
client, rFactor seems more tolerant towards this aspect in the online
environment than the previous games, but, as before, anyone hosting daring
to thread this fine thread leads to the multiplayer experience being
"****4all" (same thing with Papy sims hosted by overambitious hosts, BTW).

> Plus a tendancy to to lack feel when about to break away.
> Rfactor seems better to me.

No difference to me... despite certain gripes with regard to the "out of the
box" F1 2k1/2k2, I have always known I'd made a mistake, and realised luck
rather than skill would allow me to "stay on top" before it "went", all
along.

> Feel is hard to explain - it does feel different though.
> Still not "as one" with it as the papy engine mind you.

That was Ayrton Senna's problem to a certain extend as well... only those
who can rationalise their performance, though maybe not as ultimately quick,
are truly able to relate their experiences to others.

Jan.
=---

"Jan Verschueren" > wrote in message
...
>
> "David G Fisher" wrote...
> >> <snip>
> > Adjust the steering lock in the garage and the car will feel
> > a lot more stable.
> > <snip BS>
> > BTW, nothing wrong though with using some speed sensitivity.
>
> Indeed...
>
> Dave, you know, all things being equal, I can't touch you; I simply don't
> have the talent; so does Tony... but one slip by either of you and I'm
there
> to take advantage.
>
> So please don't imply I'm not able to tune a particular sim to my rig,
> thanks.
>
> Jan.

Not sure what mood you were in when you read my post, but it was supposed to
be helpful, believe it or not.

You said, "No, I have 12% speed sensitivity, so I can take my eyes off the
road on the
straights, but I use the exact same setting in the 3 games (even a bit more
if I'm really driving the F1s in F1C)."

Sounded to me like what is a pretty tame car in the demo was way too
sensitive to your inputs on the straights. I've seen a lot of people with
the same problem, both with the demo and with the F1 cars in F1C. Same
advice I gave you has helped quite a few others instantly settle their car
down quite a bit. Set correctly, the car in the demo will run a nice, smooth
line all the way around the track. Nothing to do with my abilities (one way
or the other) either. Wasn't trying to insult your abilities or your
knowledge about tuning a sim to your rig. I do know about ISI sims (F1
setups, wheel setup), so I try to help. Other sims (like N2003 or GPL), it's
best to look elsewhere for help. Do you know all there is about ALL sims?
:-)
--
David G Fisher

"Tony Rickard" wrote...
>> <snip>
> <snip> I think it depends how you achieve the feeling of the physics
> model. I don't use FF so any similarities in design here will
> be lost on me. The impact of the audio and visuals
> developments as well as the physics changes will therefore
> have a more profound effect. The "magic factor" missing for
> me and now at least partly in place may not have been missing
> for you.

True, I have always been of the opinion FF was a necessity to appreciate the
"modern" ISI sims.

Lemme ask Mark Jeangerard, a non-FF simmer I know even more inside out than
you, for his opinion.

Jan.
=--

Dan > wrote in message
...
> I agree with tony on this one.Having been a long time simmer and having
> played ISI and papy games for years,to me its clear that rfactor has a
feel
> to it unlike any other ISI game and its as close to papy quality as i have
> seen by another developer.
> Lets face it,ISI physics engines have always had a foreign,numb feel to
them
> compared to papyrus engines.A lot of that is down to their poor tyre
> model,something which papy excelled on in NR2003.
> GTR is more of the same and is nothing more than an official f1C mod.
> Rfactor feels far better and advanced than GTR.Its far more dynamic and
> fluid in feel and handling.
> Definalty a step up.
>
> Please stop trying to defend the old ISI engines.They stunk.


I'm not.