The electrical curse of my 68'

Hey gang, I am calling all aircooled experts on this one. If I replace
any more parts and they don't fix my problem, my wife will surely
assasinate me.

My issues started a few months ago. My battery would go dead after
long trips. I suspected a bad generator. It seemed to be putting out
a good amount of voltage, but very low current. I had also been
driving around with a leaky seal on my carb. I could smell the gas in
the engine cabinet after a run, but I couldn't find a trace of fuel.
Turns out, the gas had been spurting out and running right into the
hold in the side of the generator (talk about a perfect alignment!).

Anyhow ... carb fixed, and alternator replaced.

Yet, a few weeks in, I was back to a randomly dead battery. When I say
"dead" I mean "dead enough not to start the car". It's still got some
juice, but not enough to even begin to turn the starter (I don't even
get a click). If I can get a jump from a kind passer-by, I am back in
business ... possibly for another week until it happens again!!

Being that the battery was well over 5 years old, I replaced it with a
$20 purchase from Wal-Mart. Once again, I was road bound, no problem.

Here I am about 2 weeks later, my battery dead again.

What the heck is going on here? I don't know where to start. Could I
have a drain somewhere? How would I find it?

Other brilliant ideas I have:
* Bad solenoid (does a coil ever 'go bad'? mine looks VERY old)
* Bad voltage regulator (or connections but they seem okay)
* Something draining the battery

If anyone has ANY kind of clue, drop them on me. I appreciate any and
all suggestions you all can offer.

-Ray <ray AT gloop.net>

PS - When will they make an iPod holder/ash tray replacement? For
those of us who embrace technology, yet adore smart old engineering.
:-)

You've already avoided catastrophic fire and destruction.

It may sound stupid, but check to make sure your radio is not on--I've had
batteries drained by this simple oversight before.

Also, check the battery itself--make sure the positive terminal is covered
by a protector, and after that, start tracing current from the gen/alt
forward. Check for current draw on the battery with everything shut down,
and then trace to the switch or accessory drawing current. These anomolies
usually turn out to be something simple.

--
Randall Brink
Author

1970 VW Type 1
1973 Mercedes-Benz W115 240D
"Ray Dios Haque" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hey gang, I am calling all aircooled experts on this one. If I replace
> any more parts and they don't fix my problem, my wife will surely
> assasinate me.
>
> My issues started a few months ago. My battery would go dead after
> long trips. I suspected a bad generator. It seemed to be putting out
> a good amount of voltage, but very low current. I had also been
> driving around with a leaky seal on my carb. I could smell the gas in
> the engine cabinet after a run, but I couldn't find a trace of fuel.
> Turns out, the gas had been spurting out and running right into the
> hold in the side of the generator (talk about a perfect alignment!).
>
> Anyhow ... carb fixed, and alternator replaced.
>
> Yet, a few weeks in, I was back to a randomly dead battery. When I say
> "dead" I mean "dead enough not to start the car". It's still got some
> juice, but not enough to even begin to turn the starter (I don't even
> get a click). If I can get a jump from a kind passer-by, I am back in
> business ... possibly for another week until it happens again!!
>
> Being that the battery was well over 5 years old, I replaced it with a
> $20 purchase from Wal-Mart. Once again, I was road bound, no problem.
>
> Here I am about 2 weeks later, my battery dead again.
>
> What the heck is going on here? I don't know where to start. Could I
> have a drain somewhere? How would I find it?
>
> Other brilliant ideas I have:
> * Bad solenoid (does a coil ever 'go bad'? mine looks VERY old)
> * Bad voltage regulator (or connections but they seem okay)
> * Something draining the battery
>
> If anyone has ANY kind of clue, drop them on me. I appreciate any and
> all suggestions you all can offer.
>
> -Ray <ray AT gloop.net>
>
> PS - When will they make an iPod holder/ash tray replacement? For
> those of us who embrace technology, yet adore smart old engineering.
> :-)
>

> You've already avoided catastrophic fire and destruction.

SO FAR! ;-) But, I carry around a small extinguisher for when my luck
runs out.

>It may sound stupid, but check to make sure your radio is not on--I've
had
>batteries drained by this simple oversight before

Actually, when I bought the car, I corrected that. The radio had been
wired to constant power. I moved it over to ignition powered so the
radio goes off with the car. BUT ... I did hook up the yellow "memory"
wire to constant power to run the clock and keep my stations. Hell, if
that's what's draining my battery, it's coming out. I don't use the
radio. On a sunny say, I just roll down the windows and enjoy the buzz
of the bug. Rest of the time, I put in my earbuds and use my iPod.

> Also, check the battery itself--make sure the positive terminal is
covered
by a protector

I know for a fact that it is not covered. I wasn't aware that would
cause problems.

Here's another related question ... could it be a bad ground? My ol'
ground strap seems to do it's job, but it is a little on the corroded
and rusty side. Would a semi-functional ground cause me these issues?

> Check for current draw on the battery with everything shut down

Could you give me a layman's idea of how to do that? I'm not
completely helpless around a multi-meter, but I have zero skill at
tracking down power loss. Am I watching for the battery to climb down
a fraction of a volt while the car is shut off? I know ideally I want
to be watching the amperage/current for something like this. But I
don't have a meter that would help me measure or monitor that.

By the way, thank you for this helpful advice. ;-)

-Ray

Ray Dios Haque wrote:

> Hey gang, I am calling all aircooled experts on this one. If I replace
> any more parts and they don't fix my problem, my wife will surely
> assasinate me.
>
> My issues started a few months ago. My battery would go dead after
> long trips. I suspected a bad generator. It seemed to be putting out
> a good amount of voltage, but very low current.

<SNIP>

Put your meter across the battery terminals. Running at fast idle,
you should read around 13.5 to 14.5 V. If so, it's charging.

To check for "drain" when not in use, remove the battery Negative
cable. Connect your meter from the cable end to the battery Neg post.
Switch the meter to read 100 Milliamp scale (or whatever is close).
If you read ~20 Milliamp or less, there is no significant drain.

You might want to rig up the voltmeter with long wires so you
can put the meter on the passenger seat and monitor what happens
on a long trip.

Speedy Jim
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/

Saturday, February 19 2005, @ 2:38 PM (-0800 GMT)

Sorry about your problem Ray; that is no fun at all! You've been given
lots of good advice thus far, but, there may be a simpler way to get
to the root of it.

The problem is one of two (obviously <g>) either the battery is NOT
being charged when the engine is running, OR, it IS being charged but
drains dry when the engine is not running. I think we can all agree on
this? <vbg>

First off, did you follow the suggestion to verify that your battery
IS being charged when the engine is running? If you read a voltage in
the range of 13.5 to 14.5 volts, or thereabouts across the battery
terminals, your generator is working, and the battery is being
charged. You must measure AT the battery itself. If its under the back
seat, raise it up, and have someone hold the engine at a fast idle.

Given that the above is true, and your charging system is in good
order, then the "damage" is being done when the engine is shut off, as
there has to be a continual drain on the battery.

First off, since its likely a simple thing to do, disconnect that
radio wire that "keeps your stations" to eliminate it as a problem for
now. You can hook it ack up later. Next, locate your FUSE block. On my
'67 Bug it was behind the dash and easily reached. Use your voltmeter
and find a "hot" point with the ignition OFF. That hot terminal will
connect to one end of several of the fuses. Locate EVERY fuse that is
"hot." Gently touch every one of the fuses. Do you feel any heat?
Next, if you have a multimeter, i.e., a box that can measure current
as well as dc volts, switch it to read dc current. To be safe, if you
have several current ranges, switch first to the highest range. Now
look at the first fuse that is "hot." Gently lift up the "cold end,"
i.e., the end at the far side from where the voltage is being applied.
Now gently place the two test probes at each end of the fuse clips.
You should read NO current. Carefully switch your meter range down a
notch and try to read current again. Anything? If you get all the way
to the lowest range and read nothing, you can be sure THAT particular
circuit is safe. Now, snap the first fuse back in place, and "up end"
the 2nd fuse that is "hot" (has voltage on it). Reset your meter to
its highest range and repeat the steps you just did. Most likely ONE
of there fuses will have a current draw, and THAT is why your battery
is being drained. Once you identify WHICH fuse has a current drain
with the ignition OFF, you're almost there. <g> Assuming you find this
"bad" circuit, identify WHAT the fuse does. With the fuse removed,
WHAT electrical item no longer works? You should now be able to find
the problem.

On the other hand, if there is NO current draw thru ANY of the fuses
with the ignition off, (with that radio lead disconnected), then none
of your cars electrical items are at fault. The problem then has to be
between the battery and the fuse block. Verify this by placing your
current meter, first on the highest range, right at the battery in
series with the battery terminal and the battery cable. Also, note
whether the heavy battery cable has one or two wires connected along
with the main cable that goes to your starter. If it does, then one of
these likely goes up to the fuse block. If the battery cable has NO
xtra small wires attached to it, then go to the other end where it
attaches to the starter, there will have to be a wire there that goes
up to the fuse block.

The comment about a "cover" over the hot terminal of the battery was a
good one. This red or yellow (usually) plastic cover keeps something
ABOVE the battery terminal from shorting against it. In my '67 Bug,
that I just sold, the battery was on the passenger side under the back
seat. With no protective cover it could be possible that someone
sitting in the back seat could press down the seat frame or a spring
and cause a short. Not nice!

I had a 1947 Cushman Motor Scooter (I still have it!). It has a one
cylinder engine sitting upright, and the spark plug stands straight
UP. I sit on an upholstered seat above it, and, at one point, the
upholstery was ragged. As I bounced up/down on the scooter going down
the street, occasionally a spring would contact the tip of the spark
plug and I would get quite a JOLT ! <g> Talk about a "hot ride" ! :-)

Good luck,

Jim
Get 1000's of air-cooled links at my web site below:
http://www.ClassicVWBug4Sale.info






On 19 Feb 2005 08:06:07 -0800, "Ray Dios Haque" >
wrote:

>Hey gang, I am calling all aircooled experts on this one. If I replace
>any more parts and they don't fix my problem, my wife will surely
>assasinate me.
>
>My issues started a few months ago. My battery would go dead after
>long trips. I suspected a bad generator. It seemed to be putting out
>a good amount of voltage, but very low current. I had also been
>driving around with a leaky seal on my carb. I could smell the gas in
>the engine cabinet after a run, but I couldn't find a trace of fuel.
>Turns out, the gas had been spurting out and running right into the
>hold in the side of the generator (talk about a perfect alignment!).
>
>Anyhow ... carb fixed, and alternator replaced.
>
>Yet, a few weeks in, I was back to a randomly dead battery. When I say
>"dead" I mean "dead enough not to start the car". It's still got some
>juice, but not enough to even begin to turn the starter (I don't even
>get a click). If I can get a jump from a kind passer-by, I am back in
>business ... possibly for another week until it happens again!!
>
>Being that the battery was well over 5 years old, I replaced it with a
>$20 purchase from Wal-Mart. Once again, I was road bound, no problem.
>
>Here I am about 2 weeks later, my battery dead again.
>
>What the heck is going on here? I don't know where to start. Could I
>have a drain somewhere? How would I find it?
>
>Other brilliant ideas I have:
>* Bad solenoid (does a coil ever 'go bad'? mine looks VERY old)
>* Bad voltage regulator (or connections but they seem okay)
>* Something draining the battery
>
>If anyone has ANY kind of clue, drop them on me. I appreciate any and
>all suggestions you all can offer.
>
>-Ray <ray AT gloop.net>
>
>PS - When will they make an iPod holder/ash tray replacement? For
>those of us who embrace technology, yet adore smart old engineering.
>:-)

Hey Jim, thanks for the detailed advice. I have a new direction to
troubleshoot.

I decided (against my better judgement) to drive the bug out to my part
time job yesterday across town. It required a quick jump of course to
get her going. I ran the leads from my multimeter through the
passenger seat and stuck them into the battery terminals.

While idling at a light, I get about 12.5 to 12.8 volts. As I approach
3rd and 4th gear it will hop up to a natural 13 and some change. And
when I got on the highway, I was 14+ volts. All seems to be charging
well.

For a general "drainage" test, when I got to work I cut the engine off,
and then removed the negative terminal from the battery. It was not
noly a test, but also hopes that I would not be begging for a jump to
get myself back home.

I worked a part time shift last night of about 5 hours. When I got
back out, I hooked up the negative terminal and cranked it. She
started, but it was NOT a strong start. It sounded like a weak battery
to me. Once I got going and left onto the highway, all seemed well.
But even after getting off the highway after 25 minutes, I still saw
the ocassional red flicker on the speedo'. This could just be because
it was a tad cold here in Ohio, and I have my air idle screw set very
low. By low, we're talking "turned completely in, and then half a turn
out". Or as John Muir would tell you, "just enough idle to get you
through a red light".

Could I have purchased "the wrong battery". When I went shopping for
one at Wal-Mart their little vehicle looker-upper only had NEW Bugs in
them, not the good aircooled kind. So I had to make a guess. I went
for the smallest battery they had that was still an automotive battery.
It was about the same physical size as the one I removed. Yet, I'm
not sure of the specs on it. But I am beginning to think that matters.

If I remember correctly, the different batteries had various "cranking
amps" readings on them. What am I looking for ideally in that
department?

-Ray

I am not by any stretch a bug expert, but could it be that your
alternator/generator is bad?
It might be charging ok. Internally alternators have several diodes inside
that make the generated AC into DC. Besides doing that, they also make sure
that the battery cannot drain itself through the alternator when the car is
shut off.

I've seen it (non bug experience) where one of those diodes is shorted. The
effect is that the battery has drained below a useable voltage after the car
is being left for a bit. The car may still generate a decent charging
voltage, because the charging regulator makes up for the defect.

Hook a DVM set to current between the fattest lead of the alternator and
make sure there's no current flowing with the car turned off. If you see
currrent, your alternator needs to be repaired.

Remco

Ray Dios Haque wrote:

> Hey Jim, thanks for the detailed advice. I have a new direction to
> troubleshoot.
>
> I decided (against my better judgement) to drive the bug out to my part
> time job yesterday across town. It required a quick jump of course to
> get her going. I ran the leads from my multimeter through the
> passenger seat and stuck them into the battery terminals.
>
> While idling at a light, I get about 12.5 to 12.8 volts. As I approach
> 3rd and 4th gear it will hop up to a natural 13 and some change. And
> when I got on the highway, I was 14+ volts. All seems to be charging
> well.
>
> For a general "drainage" test, when I got to work I cut the engine off,
> and then removed the negative terminal from the battery. It was not
> noly a test, but also hopes that I would not be begging for a jump to
> get myself back home.
>
> I worked a part time shift last night of about 5 hours. When I got
> back out, I hooked up the negative terminal and cranked it. She
> started, but it was NOT a strong start. It sounded like a weak battery
> to me. Once I got going and left onto the highway, all seemed well.
> But even after getting off the highway after 25 minutes, I still saw
> the ocassional red flicker on the speedo'. This could just be because
> it was a tad cold here in Ohio, and I have my air idle screw set very
> low. By low, we're talking "turned completely in, and then half a turn
> out". Or as John Muir would tell you, "just enough idle to get you
> through a red light".
>
> Could I have purchased "the wrong battery". When I went shopping for
> one at Wal-Mart their little vehicle looker-upper only had NEW Bugs in
> them, not the good aircooled kind. So I had to make a guess. I went
> for the smallest battery they had that was still an automotive battery.
> It was about the same physical size as the one I removed. Yet, I'm
> not sure of the specs on it. But I am beginning to think that matters.
>
> If I remember correctly, the different batteries had various "cranking
> amps" readings on them. What am I looking for ideally in that
> department?
>
> -Ray
>

Yes, "size matters". Not physical size of the battery case,
but rated Cranking Amps. Look for one with 500 Amps or more.
(CCA at zero deg will be less)

Think NAPA, rather than WalMart.

Speedy Jim
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/

Ray Dios Haque wrote:

> While idling at a light, I get about 12.5 to 12.8 volts. As I approach
> 3rd and 4th gear it will hop up to a natural 13 and some change. And
> when I got on the highway, I was 14+ volts. All seems to be charging
> well.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a charged battery supposed to put out
approximately 13.8 volts? I know it is MORE than 12 volts, as each of
the six cells in a battery is about 2.2 volts (that's just the chemistry
behind the lead acid battery)... hence MORE than 13 volts total... So,
if the meter is reading as low as 12.5 volts at idle, I'd say he may
even be discharging! Something seems wrong... I would expect that there
should be battery charging going on EVEN AT IDLE RPM.

--
___
|___| '61 - VW
(o\_|_/o) Bug! ALEA -- 35.9 BHP and not a bit more!
_U___U_

Red Bug wrote:
> Ray Dios Haque wrote:
>
>
>>While idling at a light, I get about 12.5 to 12.8 volts. As I approach
>>3rd and 4th gear it will hop up to a natural 13 and some change. And
>>when I got on the highway, I was 14+ volts. All seems to be charging
>>well.
>
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a charged battery supposed to put out
> approximately 13.8 volts? I know it is MORE than 12 volts, as each of
> the six cells in a battery is about 2.2 volts (that's just the chemistry
> behind the lead acid battery)... hence MORE than 13 volts total... So,
> if the meter is reading as low as 12.5 volts at idle, I'd say he may
> even be discharging! Something seems wrong... I would expect that there
> should be battery charging going on EVEN AT IDLE RPM.
>
Charged battery shows 12.6V (or a bit higher).
He has a generator which may not charge at all at idle (he even
reports the GEN Light comes on because his idle speed is low).
With the Gen not charging at idle and the usual loads on the battery,
it's not too surprising that voltage is below 12.6V.

Alternator cars will charge quite well at idle.

Speedy Jim
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/