EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:44:13 -0700, sms wrote:

> Can't speak for all states, but in California one of the first steps in
> an emissions test is for the codes to be read via the OBD-II port.

I know this intimately not to be true, in the truest sense of what you say.

While many stations will certainly do a courtesy OBD scan, since you can't
pass CA emissions with a given number of pending or set codes or unset
monitors (the numbers of each are depending on the year of the vehicle),
it is absolutely NOT a requirement to run the OBD scan.

Look it up. I did.

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski
> wrote:

>On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
>> Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
>> 2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
>> ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.
>>
>> REFERENCES:
>> http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-ca...cle-recall-887
>> http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...EPA-Tests.aspx
>> http://hothardware.com/news/vw-inten...-482k-vehicles
>> etc.
>>
>> My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?
>>
>
>I found that interesting for two things. I assume the car's computer
>knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program.
>
>I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company
>would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get
>caught or ratted out.

Many corporations have no morals these days, and like most criminals,
they think they won't get caught. Do you remember Bank of America,
how when it got several checks whose total exceeded the money in
someone's checking account, regardelss of the order they came in, they
would process the biggest ones first, so as to empty the checking
account so that all the little checks bounced, giving them as much
insufficient funds fees as possible. That was outright stealing by the
Bank of America. They only changed because the government caught them
and made them.

I had occasion to be in a Wells Fargo branch, and I was telling the bank
officer why I despised Bank of America and he was telling me I should
change to Wells Fargo, and 6 months later, 2 or 3 years afer the
incident with Bank of Am. and I reed in the paper that Wells Fargo is
doing the same thing, and they didn't even stop after Bank of Am got
caught. They are also thieves and if they don't steal more often, it's
because they think they'll get caught, not because those in charge have
any morals.

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 19 Sep 2015 04:42:00 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
> wrote:

>On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company
>> would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get
>> caught or ratted out.
>
>According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability.
>
>If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
>the recall, since it's not a safety issue.
>
>They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
>also do worse on emissions testing results).
>
>It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
>think, because of those two results.
>
>Do you agree?

Only with half of what you say. They will do t he same on the
emissions test, and continue to pass unless something is broken.

But yes, that means they'll get lower mileage, not just during the test.

>Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars?

VW should pay them for the extra gas they will have to buy, and pay them
for the time it takes to go to the gas station and get it.

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 19 Sep 2015 04:45:38 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm
> wrote:

>On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> I assume the car's computer
>> knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program.
>
>Very few states use OBD emissions testing, and certainly California
>doesn't yet, where California is fining VW along with the EPA.
>
>http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/smogche...bd_only_im.pdf
>
>Most use tailpipe testing.
>
>Some, like California, run the car through the Federal Test Procedure
>on a dynomometer.
>
>Given thats at least three different procedures (where each state can
>easily be different), I don't see *how* the engine computer *knows* it's
>being tested for emissions.
>
>Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car
>knows it is being tested.

Maryland used OBD on cars new enough. That includes my 2000 car, but I
don't think included my 1995 car.

(For the 1995 it used the dynamometer and tailpipe stick) I think when
I turn 70, if I don't drive too much, I won't have to be tested. Or
my car.

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:45:01 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> Do you know of any claims denied because the owner did not get an oil
> change? Dirty air filter?

Sorry, I should have mentioned that the position I set out is that under
English law and other jurisdictions will no doubt differ.

.. wrote:
> On 9/19/2015 3:15 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
>>
>> Then the lead issue. I don't know if lead in gas was harmful or not
>> but that train has left the station.
>
> Wow, you are remarkably uninformed, if not downright stupid.
>
> Educate yourself, if possible, by reading about Clair Patterson,
> a scientist who was attempting to establish the true age of the
> Earth and serendipitously, by the failure of his early attempts
> to create a clean room, discovered the grave neurotoxin
> danger poisoning us all.

Thank you for that little bit of education.

On 9/19/2015 10:54 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:44:13 -0700, sms wrote:
>
>> Can't speak for all states, but in California one of the first steps in
>> an emissions test is for the codes to be read via the OBD-II port.
>
> I know this intimately not to be true, in the truest sense of what you say.
>
> While many stations will certainly do a courtesy OBD scan, since you can't
> pass CA emissions with a given number of pending or set codes or unset
> monitors (the numbers of each are depending on the year of the vehicle),
> it is absolutely NOT a requirement to run the OBD scan.
>
> Look it up. I did.

You said it yourself. You can't pass emissions with pending codes. They
have to run a scan to check this. That's why before they even stick the
exhaust gas analyzer into the tail pipe they read the codes. No point
proceeding with the test if there are unset codes, though if you're
paying for the test they will complete it to check for other failure
modes as well.

At least that's the procedure for the four vehicles I have had smogged
every two years for the past 20 or so years. Also the procedure at the
repair shop my relative operated until he sold it last month, and he
probably did 3000 or so smog checks per year.

I guess you could claim that it is not a requirement to run a scan, it's
just a requirement that you can't pass with pending codes and the only
way to check for pending codes is to do a scan. If there is another way
to check for pending codes other than doing a scan you would be correct,
but I don't think that there is.

On 9/19/2015 10:51 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:30:45 -0400, Steve W. wrote:
>
>> How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most
>> of the states do not use a dyno any longer.
>
> I just had mine tested, in California, and they used a dyno.
> No OBD hookup whatsoever.

How did they check for pending codes if they did not use a code scanner?
You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years).

That shop would be shut down by the state if it was found that they were
passing cars without checking for pending codes.

On 9/19/2015 8:15 PM, wrote:

> Exactly what are you trying to say??? My reply was to say there were
> many instances of people - hobbyists and mechanics alike, screwing
> with emmission controls in an attempt to defeat them and get better
> mileage and power, and getting (usually) neither.

That was the big problem in California. A significant number of
out-of-compliance vehicles were causing most of the pollution. Even
though percentage-wise the number of such vehicles was small, in
absolute numbers it was large enough to cause a problem.

The "catalytic converter test pipe" was popular for a while. But as you
said, in most cases, all the tampering with emissions controls did not
have any effect on mileage and/or power.

sms > wrote:
>On 9/19/2015 10:51 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 05:30:45 -0400, Steve W. wrote:
>>
>>> How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most
>>> of the states do not use a dyno any longer.
>>
>> I just had mine tested, in California, and they used a dyno.
>> No OBD hookup whatsoever.
>
>How did they check for pending codes if they did not use a code scanner?
>You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years).

They look for the light on the dashboard that indicates codes have been
logged.

In some places they always use the scanner to make sure, for instance,
that the ECU wasn't reset immdiately before taking the car in for
inspection. In some places they do not.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."