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  #1  
Old August 20th 11, 01:04 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
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Posts: 253
Default FFB

Ok, this is "the right" way to set FFB.

Centering Spring should be at 100.
Overall, Spring and Damper should be at the same number.

My settings are 139/139/139/100, "Allow game..." unchecked, in-game
40.0/100. I am not very strong person, so I presume that normal male people
should have it at 140%.
I still have some "play" in FFB, but I presume that adjusting
"cockpitLookDeadZone" in app.ini file of iRacing will correct this.

Mario

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  #2  
Old August 21st 11, 10:41 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Tony R
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Posts: 207
Default FFB

On 20/08/2011 13:04, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> Ok, this is "the right" way to set FFB.


The free Atlas telemetry tool can show when FFB forces have reached
their max. Also a guy has written a tool which shows FFB forces live if
you run in windowed mode or have an additional screen or
smartphone/tablet you can run it on.

Check the forums for iRacing FFB clipping monitor

This allows each car to be set with individual FFB forces to avoid
clipping (where you reduce fidelity by hitting max force too regularly
so that forces cannot be distinguished)

I think this stuff is rather personal though it depends upon how much
you rely on FFB to distinguish how the car is behaving. Your settings
will be hitting max forces much of the time but if it works for you...



  #3  
Old August 21st 11, 11:44 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
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Posts: 253
Default FFB

Tony R:
>Mario Petrinovic:
>> Ok, this is "the right" way to set FFB.

>
> The free Atlas telemetry tool can show when FFB forces have reached their
> max. Also a guy has written a tool which shows FFB forces live if you run
> in windowed mode or have an additional screen or smartphone/tablet you can
> run it on.
>
> Check the forums for iRacing FFB clipping monitor
>
> This allows each car to be set with individual FFB forces to avoid
> clipping (where you reduce fidelity by hitting max force too regularly so
> that forces cannot be distinguished)
>
> I think this stuff is rather personal though it depends upon how much you
> rely on FFB to distinguish how the car is behaving. Your settings will be
> hitting max forces much of the time but if it works for you...


First, I don't have access to forum.
Second, clipping doesn't change a thing. You don't need a tool to
feel clipping, clipping occures at the max force, if you don't feel the
maximum force, what in the whole world do you feel.
Third, no, it simply cannot be personal (but soon I'll be on the
fly, and then you will see, because I am at the very end of my research). If
you can adjust this to your personal liking, then you are missing something.
All forces, Damper, Spring and Centering Spring have to be ballanced, only
this way you can get the right feel of FFB, and ONLY "the right" feel can
help you "the right" way. Too bad everybody is performing this alchemy,
insted of a real thing. But, it is long time since I became tired of
explaining to people, if they believe so much in their alchemy, so let them
enjoy it.
I am pretty sure that I'll be ready for the next rookie season, then
you will see. Already, with only few laps done with "the right" setting, I
am extremly pleased, driving fixed Corvette (and I do have enormnous
experience in trying all different settings). I just need to adjust this
little "play" that I have, I hope this will be done this week. But the
ballance of forces is done rightly (it could be, though, that you can adjust
this play with Centering Spring, but I was at work, so didn't try it yet).

Mario

  #4  
Old August 21st 11, 04:41 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
GaryR
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Posts: 90
Default FFB


I'll try anything once, but please clarify relating the what is in the
Logitech Profiler Options/Global Device Settings for my G25 setup.


Force Feedback Device Settings
Overall Effects Strength - 139%?

Spring Effect Sttrength - 139%?

Damper Effect Strength - 139%?

Enable Centering Spring in Force Feeback Games - Checked
Centering Spring Strength - 100%?

Steering Wheel Settings
Report Combined Pedals - Unchecked

Degrees of Rotation - 383 deg. (I have a full size wheel out of my
race car)

Game Settings
Allow Game to Adjust Settings - unchecked

Am I reading your settings correctly?


Thanks
GR

>On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 14:04:46 +0200, "Mario Petrinovic" > wrote:
> Ok, this is "the right" way to set FFB.
>
> Centering Spring should be at 100.
> Overall, Spring and Damper should be at the same number.
>
> My settings are 139/139/139/100, "Allow game..." unchecked, in-game
>40.0/100. I am not very strong person, so I presume that normal male people
>should have it at 140%.
> I still have some "play" in FFB, but I presume that adjusting
>"cockpitLookDeadZone" in app.ini file of iRacing will correct this.
>
> Mario


  #5  
Old August 21st 11, 11:34 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
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Posts: 253
Default FFB

GaryR:
> I'll try anything once, but please clarify relating the what is in the
> Logitech Profiler Options/Global Device Settings for my G25 setup.
>
> Force Feedback Device Settings
> Overall Effects Strength - 139%?
>
> Spring Effect Sttrength - 139%?
>
> Damper Effect Strength - 139%?
>
> Enable Centering Spring in Force Feeback Games - Checked
> Centering Spring Strength - 100%?
>
> Steering Wheel Settings
> Report Combined Pedals - Unchecked
>
> Degrees of Rotation - 383 deg. (I have a full size wheel out of my
> race car)
>
> Game Settings
> Allow Game to Adjust Settings - unchecked
>
> Am I reading your settings correctly?


No, Centering Spring in FF games should be unchecked (IT WORKS
unchecked also, but differently than when checked, your FFB guru didn't tell
you that, I bet).
Second thing, first you have to calibrate wheel properly. When you
center your wheel make sure that in center position it is at the number
which is at exactly half between the lowest and the highest. Then, when you
are asked to turn it left, turn it left so that the number matches the
number you have in your driver (383), no matter if your wheel is actually
left or not. Of course, this isn't so good with analog wheel, so I would
make sure, when I am buying a wheel, that it is digital. Also, somehwere
I've read advice to calibrate pedals every time you start to race. This is
GOOD advice. While it is alright to calibrate (digital) wheel only once,
with (analog) pedals it is different situation, so for every cold start of
computer I calibrate my pedals. This isn't hard to do, anyway. But I have
another advice. BEFORE you calibrate pedals, first "work" pedals a little. I
press each pedal 10 times BEFORE calibration, and 5 times during
calibration. Don't press for more than 5 times during calibration, because
from time to time it happens that pedal potentiometer responds with a peak,
so this can screw your calibration process, which is especially bad for
braking pedal.
Another thing is that the perspective has to be natural. You got to
find your natural FOV, and THE MOST important is to set the hight of screen
EXACTLY right. This means that you adjust it by the mean of "DrivingVanishY"
variable in app.ini file, and this has to be precise to 4 decimal numbers
(the adjustment in the game isn't precise enough).
Next thing, the Centering Spring Strength isn't 100%. I just started
to research this. For now, it looks like something like 20% responds well
for me. The change of Centering Spring Strength reacts just like it should
(this means that other numbers are correctly set), and it really affects
only the Centering Spring, while the ballance of other forces remain
untouched.
When I finish testing Centering Spring, I'll see how this blends
with "cockpitLookDeadZone" variable in app.ini file. For now I have it at
the default (which is 0.050000).
And the last thing, whatever you are testing, always test
thoroughly. Giving it one try will not do the job. Maybe you are used to
some other things, so this new thing will be confusing. But, of course,
nobody has patience, and it is completly alright with me whichever way suits
you, you don't have to try it at all, if you ask me. I always test
thorougly, and this is why this is taking so long. I spend up to 3 hours to
test 15 different positions. Do at least 3 (*proper*) laps with every
position. Take care that first you do at least something like 7-8 laps, just
to adjust to car and track.

Mario

>>Mario Petrinovic:
>> Ok, this is "the right" way to set FFB.
>>
>> Centering Spring should be at 100.
>> Overall, Spring and Damper should be at the same number.
>>
>> My settings are 139/139/139/100, "Allow game..." unchecked,
>> in-game
>>40.0/100. I am not very strong person, so I presume that normal male
>>people should have it at 140%.
>> I still have some "play" in FFB, but I presume that adjusting
>>"cockpitLookDeadZone" in app.ini file of iRacing will correct this.


  #6  
Old August 21st 11, 11:37 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
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Posts: 253
Default FFB

Mario Petrinovic:
> Another thing is that the perspective has to be natural. You got to
> find your natural FOV, and THE MOST important is to set the hight of
> screen
> EXACTLY right. This means that you adjust it by the mean of
> "DrivingVanishY"
> variable in app.ini file, and this has to be precise to 4 decimal numbers
> (the adjustment in the game isn't precise enough).


Oh yes, screen HAS to be vertical.

Mario

  #7  
Old August 29th 11, 09:39 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Pat Dotson
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Posts: 17
Default FFB

On Aug 21, 6:44*am, "Mario Petrinovic" >
wrote:
> * * * * First, I don't have access to forum.


Right. The cut you off because of this exact nonsense.


> * * * * Second, clipping doesn't change a thing. You don't need a tool to
> feel clipping, clipping occures at the max force, if you don't feel the
> maximum force, what in the whole world do you feel.


You seem to think clipping is some sort of spike in the force. It's
not. Clipping is when the wheel motors are being driven to their max
force for any extended period of time.

With these settings you recommend, the wheel will be clipping
continually. You might as well have a spring loaded wheel, because
you certainly won't be feeling any FFB detail. At the slightest
cornering loads you will feel a constant force from the wheel equal to
the max force output of the wheel.

I'll be interested to hear from anyone else who tries what Mario
recommends. I messed around with it for a bit just to see what would
happen. It went about as well as I expected.

Mario, has anyone else ever confirmed your results? Has even one
other person ever responded positively to your posts on FFB?

The FOV stuff is hilarious, BTW

Pat
  #8  
Old August 30th 11, 11:15 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
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Posts: 253
Default FFB

Pat Dotson:
Mario Petrinovic:
> First, I don't have access to forum.


Right. The cut you off because of this exact nonsense.
-----------------------------------------------------

Well, I wrote about the same thing when N2003 came out, in Papyrus
forum. Papyrus responded in a way that they disabled damping. This was the
last update of Papyrus, Papyrus was no more.
I wrote in iRacing forum as well, iRacing responded by disabling
damper. That lasted for one day.
-----------------------------------------------------

> Second, clipping doesn't change a thing. You don't need a tool to
> feel clipping, clipping occures at the max force, if you don't feel the
> maximum force, what in the whole world do you feel.


You seem to think clipping is some sort of spike in the force. It's
not. Clipping is when the wheel motors are being driven to their max
force for any extended period of time.

With these settings you recommend, the wheel will be clipping
continually. You might as well have a spring loaded wheel, because
you certainly won't be feeling any FFB detail. At the slightest
cornering loads you will feel a constant force from the wheel equal to
the max force output of the wheel.

I'll be interested to hear from anyone else who tries what Mario
recommends. I messed around with it for a bit just to see what would
happen. It went about as well as I expected.

Mario, has anyone else ever confirmed your results? Has even one
other person ever responded positively to your posts on FFB?
--------------------------------------------------------

Yes, some people use FFB the way I am using.
BTW, I saw this FFB clipping tool. I will never use that tool (I
never use unproved programs on my computer), but it shows exactly what I
feel using FFB your way. Too eratic FFB, which cannot be used past 20% (or
8, per new graduation), and probably nobody uses it past 8%, or 3 per new
graduation. This behaves completly uncontrolable, just like a car suspension
without shock absorber. FFB is designed to be used with damper and spring.
Damper stops FFB to go into clipping, and controls the behaviour of FFB. I
am using in-game 40.0/100.
I keep getting responses like yours, but I never understood them. I
will not be able to finish my research this month, but next month I'll be
racing. For now, it could be that Centering Spring should be the same as
other forces, and "cockpitLookDeadZone" could be as high as 0.120000, I'll
see.
-------------------------------------------------------

The FOV stuff is hilarious, BTW
----------------------------------------------------

Hm, you didn't adjust your perspective? Well, this explains a lot.
Why you didn't adjust it?

Mario

  #9  
Old August 30th 11, 01:54 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
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Posts: 253
Default FFB

> Pat Dotson:
> Mario Petrinovic:
>> Second, clipping doesn't change a thing. You don't need a tool to
>> feel clipping, clipping occures at the max force, if you don't feel the
>> maximum force, what in the whole world do you feel.

>
> You seem to think clipping is some sort of spike in the force. It's
> not. Clipping is when the wheel motors are being driven to their max
> force for any extended period of time.
>
> With these settings you recommend, the wheel will be clipping
> continually. You might as well have a spring loaded wheel, because
> you certainly won't be feeling any FFB detail. At the slightest
> cornering loads you will feel a constant force from the wheel equal to
> the max force output of the wheel.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, I gave a little thought about that clipping.
Yes, you are absolutely right, I do think that "clipping is some
sort of spike in the force", and there is a reason why I think it, and there
is a reason why you think I have constant clipping. Watch he
With my settings clipping occures ONLY during bumps on road, no sign
of any clipping during normal conditions. This is why I see clipping in
iRacing as some sort of spike, because I feel it only in those spiky
situations.
OTOH, you, with your damperless forces, which behave so erratically,
those forces uncontrollably (uncontrolled by damper) jump all over the
place, so, if you rise the slider just a bit too high, it is already in the
red zone. OTOH, probably you don't feel the bump clipping, simply because
your FFB setting is too low for that, and because of spiky nature of bump
clipping, when those forces became uncontrolled, they are already gone, a
spike is gone.
So, two of us have completly different view of clipping.
I feel it only on bumps.
You feel it everywhere, but probably not on bumps.
Lol, some kind of FFB settings you have.

Mario

  #10  
Old August 30th 11, 03:21 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Pat Dotson
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Posts: 17
Default FFB

I tried your 139/139/139/100 settings with various in-game FFB
strengths. The wheel (G25) was clipping constantly with anything but
an in-game setting of around 1 or 2.

If it's damping that you want, you can add that with the new slider
that iRacing added. That still doesn't change what clipping is, and
how you have to set all the parameters to avoid it. There can be no
doubt, especially with your earliest recommendation of using in-game
strength of 40, that your settings will clip FFB effects continually
in corners.

BTW, by setting your overall strength to 139%, what you are doing is
amplifying the smallest FFB signals. The result is less of the 'dead
zone' that people used to complain about with the G25's. Actually at
139%, you've gone far past accounting for the dead zone, and have
introduced instability into the feedback whenever the force direction
is reversed.

Also, my FOV is set to match my screen size and distance to my eyes so
that I get a perspective close to reality. If you look back through
iRacing forums and even here on RAS, you'll see that I was an early
proponent of this.
 




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