How ite done used to b

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 14:02:41 -0500, Nicholas
> wrote:

>On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 11:52:13 -0700, jim beam > wrote:
>
>>On 09/17/2011 11:28 AM, Nicholas wrote:
>>> On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:31:07 -0700, jim > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 09/15/2011 07:33 PM, bob urz wrote:
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykBSanSCS9k
>>>>> bob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> yeah, dirty, dangerous, and inefficient. serious injuries were a
>>>> regular occurrence, and the effects on health of those working
>>>> conditions were a disgrace. and the quality of output was highly
>>>> inconsistent and unreliable.
>>>>
>>>> re other comments, it's not that we employ fewer people in manufacturing
>>>> that's the biggest issue [although it is a significant problem with
>>>> substantial "down the road" impact], it is in my opinion one of national
>>>> security. both military and financial.
>>>>
>>>> big picture is that if we don't manufacture here, we can't prepare for a
>>>> sudden war. and certainly not a large scale one.
>>>>
>>>> secondary to that is the financial impact. manufacturing creates
>>>> wealth. sure, other forms of employment move money about, but
>>>> manufacturing creates it [literally] from the ground up. if we don't
>>>> have manufacturing, long term, our economy is going to be that of
>>>> polishing other people's boots. and there's no long term future in that.
>>>>
>>>> now, manufacturing is an evolving endeavor. industry constantly
>>>> improves its knowledge and its abilities. and automation is the
>>>> inevitable product of that. it is pointless and ridiculous to hearken
>>>> back to the dark days of having humans do dirty dangerous repetitive
>>>> mundane b.s. jobs a machine can do faster, cleaner, safer, and without
>>>> the repetition causing it to fall asleep on the job and possibly kill
>>>> itself. manufacturing employment will naturally decline if output
>>>> remains constant. however, retaining the manufacturing capacity here
>>>> ensures those that do work in manufacturing can be better paid, safer,
>>>> healthier, and much more importantly, their wages stay here, and our
>>>> capacity stays here. that means the nation remains long term secure,
>>>> and long term wealthy. if we're wealthy, all the service industries
>>>> [that really add no value, just shuffle it about], can survive and take
>>>> up some of the slack.
>>>>
>>>> [as an aside, wtf are we thinking with current employment practices
>>>> where everybody is working 50, 60, 70 hours a week? much better to have
>>>> more people working fewer hours. more people get to have a job. is
>>>> that such a hard concept?]
>>>>
>>>> although it has its problems, germany is the poster child of not losing
>>>> sight of the benefits of retaining production capacity. at this time,
>>>> it's carrying the HUGE financial burden of the rest of the e.u., based
>>>> on the wealth creation of its manufacturing sector. and its capable of
>>>> paying for a public health system and employment benefits that shame us,
>>>> and all while remaining competitive on the world stage.
>>>>
>>>> and let's not forget, germany is germany. it doesn't need a large
>>>> standing army. they can manufacture and go to war in a matter of
>>>> months. even if the rest of the world is watching, nobody else can
>>>> mobilize and arm as quickly as germany could. it's actually quite a
>>>> scary thing if you happen to be a neighbor. and this is precisely why
>>>> china has targeted manufacturing growth as its #1 long term strategic
>>>> goal. with that manufacturing capacity, it is now the #1 threat in the
>>>> region, and on its current trajectory, to the world.
>>>>
>>>> anyway, we should embrace the technology, keep manufacturing at home,
>>>> and keep our wealth at home. and thus, retain our strength. right now,
>>>> it seems we're hell-bent on shooting ourselves in the head, and the only
>>>> people getting fat are the wall st vultures stripping the carcasses.
>>>
>>> You haven't heard about Globalization? Where have you been hiding?
>>> I just bought a new 2011 car recently.
>>>
>>> Parts content information:
>>>
>>> For vehicles in this carline:
>>> U.S../CANADIAN PARTS CONTENT: 2%
>>> MAJOR SOURCES OF FOREIGHT PARTS
>>> CONTENT: KOREA 80%
>>>
>>> Note: Parts content does not include final
>>> assembly, distribution, or other non-parts costs.
>>>
>>> FOR THIS VEHICLE:
>>> FINAL ASSEMBLY POINTS:
>>> BUPYUNG GU, IN KOREA
>>> COUNTRY OF ORIGIN:
>>> ENGINE: KOREA
>>> TRANSISSION: JAPAN
>>>
>>>
>>
>>reading comprehension: FAIL
>>information content: FAIL
>>
>>and to whoever were your teachers at school: FAIL
>
>IMO, You're one crazy mother ****er. You can't get your head out of
>your ass long enough to see what's transpired over the years.
>
>What you're really telling me is that YOU don't want to accept things
>the way they are, and are going to throw a hissy fit about it. See a
>child psychologist. I don't get paid for this ****.
>

jb was exactly right in what he said, and sees exactly what has
transpired.
Only thing he failed to mention is that even highly automated plants
have tremendous job multiplying effects.
He just doesn't like what has transpired. I don't either.
Maybe you haven't noticed unemployment.
Don't even think that's just going to get better.
The pencil-pusher bubbles have burst.
Soon those endless unemployment checks that are been written will
stop too.
We're headed for a welfare state.
Only a crazy mother****er thinks that's a good thing.

--Vic

Vic Smith wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 14:02:41 -0500, Nicholas
(snip
> We're headed for a welfare state.
> Only a crazy mother****er thinks that's a good thing.
>
> --Vic

Unfortunately, that was what the majority voted for
in the last presidential election.

"Paul in Houston TX" > wrote in message >
> Unfortunately, that was what the majority voted for
> in the last presidential election.

That's right..It was like the pied piper leading the children
away.

I heard this morning that every damn $100,000 job that
Obama's "plan" generated cost the taxpayers $5,000,000.

He put in his thumb and plucked out a plum and said
" What a clever lad am I" ????

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 17:46:11 -0500, Vic Smith
> wrote:

>jb was exactly right in what he said, and sees exactly what has
>transpired.
>Only thing he failed to mention is that even highly automated plants
>have tremendous job multiplying effects.
>He just doesn't like what has transpired. I don't either.
>Maybe you haven't noticed unemployment.
>Don't even think that's just going to get better.
>The pencil-pusher bubbles have burst.
>Soon those endless unemployment checks that are been written will
>stop too.
>We're headed for a welfare state.
>Only a crazy mother****er thinks that's a good thing.
>
>--Vic

I was simply illustrating that my "American Chevrolet" wasn't American
at all. They tell you to Buy American to keep the jobs at home.
Except you can't buy American because things are made out of parts and
assemblies that come from all over the planet. That's manufacturing
globalization. There are even foreign parts in a lot of U.S. military
equipment.

At least they had the balls to put the info on the car's window
sticker, which shocked the hell out of me. Not the price, but the
fact I was buying a Daewoo relabeled as a Chevrolet.

I worked in Factory Automation for a living before I retired for
medical reasons. I've known for decades that the robots were going to
take over. Just didn't foresee foreign labor taking over also.

Lg

On 09/17/2011 07:23 PM, Nicholas wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 17:46:11 -0500, Vic Smith
> > wrote:
>
>> jb was exactly right in what he said, and sees exactly what has
>> transpired.
>> Only thing he failed to mention is that even highly automated plants
>> have tremendous job multiplying effects.
>> He just doesn't like what has transpired. I don't either.
>> Maybe you haven't noticed unemployment.
>> Don't even think that's just going to get better.
>> The pencil-pusher bubbles have burst.
>> Soon those endless unemployment checks that are been written will
>> stop too.
>> We're headed for a welfare state.
>> Only a crazy mother****er thinks that's a good thing.
>>
>> --Vic
>
> I was simply illustrating that my "American Chevrolet" wasn't American
> at all. They tell you to Buy American to keep the jobs at home.
> Except you can't buy American because things are made out of parts and
> assemblies that come from all over the planet. That's manufacturing
> globalization. There are even foreign parts in a lot of U.S. military
> equipment.
>
> At least they had the balls to put the info on the car's window
> sticker, which shocked the hell out of me. Not the price, but the
> fact I was buying a Daewoo relabeled as a Chevrolet.
>
> I worked in Factory Automation for a living before I retired for
> medical reasons. I've known for decades that the robots were going to
> take over. Just didn't foresee foreign labor taking over also.
>
> Lg
>

i could ask what kind of person couldn't read a label /before/ he bought
it, but that's beside the point.

what is the point is that g.m. have been sucking at the taxpayer's teat
for decades, and what have they done with billions of dollars invested?
shipped it overseas!

the only possible saving grace in your case is that at least the daewoo
is south korean, and thus the product of a democratic and military ally.
all the money/jobs g.m. has shipped to china by getting its
componentry made there at taxpayer expense, is going to a communist
dictatorship and military antagonist. that is ****ED UP.

we should automate and manufacture at home. **** everybody else.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On 09/17/2011 06:08 PM, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
> Vic Smith wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 14:02:41 -0500, Nicholas
> (snip
>> We're headed for a welfare state.
>> Only a crazy mother****er thinks that's a good thing.
>>
>> --Vic
>
> Unfortunately, that was what the majority voted for
> in the last presidential election.

unfortunately, this is an ongoing problem that started with stock market
deregulation where they started to chase bigger and bigger returns. it
became noticeable in about 95, during clinton, and ramped up to
ridiculous proportions under bush. obama is just a useless spectator
that couldn't spot the magnitude of this problem if it was beat into him
with 2x4 and couldn't point in the right direction towards fixing it if
he had a wild dog on his ass.

this is 100% a wall st initiated, but enabled by our "representatives"
in d.c. who saw it as an opportunity to close down their old enemies,
the unions by way of exporting their industries. of course, the chinese
were there to pick up the ball when we started to drop it, but the
pressure to offshore comes from wall st, pure and simple. wtf
consecutive administrations were doing by not being able to see or
acknowledge the big picture on this is what ****es me off. and man, the
vultures sure are coming home to roost big time now.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 20:14:23 -0700, jim beam > wrote:

>i could ask what kind of person couldn't read a label /before/ he bought
>it, but that's beside the point.

I had my wife with me.

>what is the point is that g.m. have been sucking at the taxpayer's teat
>for decades, and what have they done with billions of dollars invested?
> shipped it overseas!

Like every other major player in retail.


>the only possible saving grace in your case is that at least the daewoo
>is south korean, and thus the product of a democratic and military ally.
> all the money/jobs g.m. has shipped to china by getting its
>componentry made there at taxpayer expense, is going to a communist
>dictatorship and military antagonist. that is ****ED UP.

How is that any more ****ed up than buying oil at exorbitant prices
from our sworn enemies in South America and the Mideast?

>we should automate and manufacture at home. **** everybody else.

The cats are already out of the bag. Thank Nixon/Bush One for that.
They call it "normalizing relations." I call it treason.

Lg

On 09/17/2011 08:29 PM, Nicholas wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 20:14:23 -0700, jim > wrote:
>
>> i could ask what kind of person couldn't read a label /before/ he bought
>> it, but that's beside the point.
>
> I had my wife with me.

[delete the obvious]


>
>> what is the point is that g.m. have been sucking at the taxpayer's teat
>> for decades, and what have they done with billions of dollars invested?
>> shipped it overseas!
>
> Like every other major player in retail.

at least retail didn't get taxpayer support/tax brakes like g.m. did.


>
>
>> the only possible saving grace in your case is that at least the daewoo
>> is south korean, and thus the product of a democratic and military ally.
>> all the money/jobs g.m. has shipped to china by getting its
>> componentry made there at taxpayer expense, is going to a communist
>> dictatorship and military antagonist. that is ****ED UP.
>
> How is that any more ****ed up than buying oil at exorbitant prices
> from our sworn enemies in South America and the Mideast?

because neither are military threats to us. and besides, why should we
burn our oil first, when we can deplete theirs then come back to our
own, of which we still have plenty? and it's not a problem giving arabs
money - they're completely clueless and have no idea what to do with it.
the chinese do though.


>
>> we should automate and manufacture at home. **** everybody else.
>
> The cats are already out of the bag. Thank Nixon/Bush One for that.
> They call it "normalizing relations." I call it treason.

on that, you and i agree. that effort to get behind wall st and to
thereby **** the unions [for whom i don't have a lot of sympathy], has
had collateral damage beyond the worst of all possible retarded
nightmares. it absolutely beggars belief. as you say, it's nothing
short of treason.


>
> Lg
>

don't get me started about debt slavery and the destruction of the
education system.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 22:29:30 -0500, Nicholas
> wrote:

>On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 20:14:23 -0700, jim beam > wrote:
>
>>i could ask what kind of person couldn't read a label /before/ he bought
>>it, but that's beside the point.
>
>I had my wife with me.
>
>>what is the point is that g.m. have been sucking at the taxpayer's teat
>>for decades, and what have they done with billions of dollars invested?
>> shipped it overseas!
>
>Like every other major player in retail.
>
>
>>the only possible saving grace in your case is that at least the daewoo
>>is south korean, and thus the product of a democratic and military ally.
>> all the money/jobs g.m. has shipped to china by getting its
>>componentry made there at taxpayer expense, is going to a communist
>>dictatorship and military antagonist. that is ****ED UP.
>
>How is that any more ****ed up than buying oil at exorbitant prices
>from our sworn enemies in South America and the Mideast?
>
>>we should automate and manufacture at home. **** everybody else.
>
>The cats are already out of the bag. Thank Nixon/Bush One for that.
>They call it "normalizing relations." I call it treason.
>
jb has said what I've been saying for years.
And given your background you know the score too.
Only things I'll add is:
Autos are one of the few places you can get domestic content.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...american-cars/
You're smart enough to know you were buying a Daewo, not a Chevy.
I don't know why you're complaining. You made a conscious choice.
And here you're bitching about GM sending money overseas, when there
are much bigger targets, and you had no problem buying that car.
You're just part of the problem.
Once Wall Street got into almost everybody's paycheck with a 401k
cut straight to Wall Street, it was all over.
Clinton was as big a Wall Street pimp as Bush, and it looks like Obama
is carrying on the tradition.
There's not a ****ing difference between D's and R's in this regard,
and anybody who thinks R's will improve that is nuts.
But that's not to say R's taking over is a bad idea.
What the R's will do is quickly **** up everything so much more that a
3rd party will spring up, or the D's will see the light and shed Wall
Street and get back to their roots..
Wall Street owns the D's and R's.
Nixon had nothing to do with this trade imbalance, and wouldn't have
tolerated it. He was a better Democrat than Obama.
So was Ike for that matter.
Ironically, the last President who exhibited the "Dem" party's
supposed regard for blue collars and low unemployment was Ronald
Reagan, who forced the Japanese to build auto plants here.
With friends like Wall Street, China, and U.S. politicians, who needs
enemies?
The best thing that could happen to this country would be to import
enough Chinese here to fill the Congress.
They'd quickly whip things into shape and make America proud.

--Vic

On 09/17/2011 10:59 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 22:29:30 -0500, Nicholas
> > wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 20:14:23 -0700, jim > wrote:
>>
>>> i could ask what kind of person couldn't read a label /before/ he bought
>>> it, but that's beside the point.
>>
>> I had my wife with me.
>>
>>> what is the point is that g.m. have been sucking at the taxpayer's teat
>>> for decades, and what have they done with billions of dollars invested?
>>> shipped it overseas!
>>
>> Like every other major player in retail.
>>
>>
>>> the only possible saving grace in your case is that at least the daewoo
>>> is south korean, and thus the product of a democratic and military ally.
>>> all the money/jobs g.m. has shipped to china by getting its
>>> componentry made there at taxpayer expense, is going to a communist
>>> dictatorship and military antagonist. that is ****ED UP.
>>
>> How is that any more ****ed up than buying oil at exorbitant prices
>>from our sworn enemies in South America and the Mideast?
>>
>>> we should automate and manufacture at home. **** everybody else.
>>
>> The cats are already out of the bag. Thank Nixon/Bush One for that.
>> They call it "normalizing relations." I call it treason.
>>
> jb has said what I've been saying for years.
> And given your background you know the score too.
> Only things I'll add is:
> Autos are one of the few places you can get domestic content.
> http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...american-cars/
> You're smart enough to know you were buying a Daewo, not a Chevy.
> I don't know why you're complaining. You made a conscious choice.
> And here you're bitching about GM sending money overseas, when there
> are much bigger targets, and you had no problem buying that car.
> You're just part of the problem.
> Once Wall Street got into almost everybody's paycheck with a 401k
> cut straight to Wall Street, it was all over.
> Clinton was as big a Wall Street pimp as Bush, and it looks like Obama
> is carrying on the tradition.
> There's not a ****ing difference between D's and R's in this regard,

you need to be very careful abut that thinking. read this from mike
lofgren, retired republican staffer:
http://www.truth-out.org/goodbye-all...ult/1314907779

planting the seed of "they're all the same" leads to low participation.
and low participation opens the door to hijacking by just the kinds of
sociopaths that started us down this road in the first place.

what we have today is far too similar to the wall street pirates of the
1930's and their political lackeys of the great depression. they bled
the country dry, then torched it and ran off with the money. only a war
got us out of it. and it's looking like history is going to repeat itself.


> and anybody who thinks R's will improve that is nuts.
> But that's not to say R's taking over is a bad idea.
> What the R's will do is quickly **** up everything so much more that a
> 3rd party will spring up, or the D's will see the light and shed Wall
> Street and get back to their roots..
> Wall Street owns the D's and R's.
> Nixon had nothing to do with this trade imbalance, and wouldn't have
> tolerated it. He was a better Democrat than Obama.
> So was Ike for that matter.
> Ironically, the last President who exhibited the "Dem" party's
> supposed regard for blue collars and low unemployment was Ronald
> Reagan, who forced the Japanese to build auto plants here.

the irony is, now they're really the only ones left making cars from
domestic componentry! gm buys its brakes, driveshafts, glass, wire
harnesses, electronics, starters, alternators, upholstery, carpet, etc.
from china. frod from china and mexico.


> With friends like Wall Street, China, and U.S. politicians, who needs
> enemies?
> The best thing that could happen to this country would be to import
> enough Chinese here to fill the Congress.
> They'd quickly whip things into shape and make America proud.

but they pretty much already control congress, [second to wall st of
course, but it amounts to much the same thing since the chinese go to
wall st and lubricate it in the traditional chinese way]. the only
pride deriving from that is the chinese puffing out their chests because
they've got the once-mighty round-eyes licking their boots over the
deficit and begging to allow them to keep on raping our industrial base
and stealing our technology.


>
> --Vic


--
nomina rutrum rutrum