Auto insurance in New Jersey is scam; Amica is crooked, too

Hello there,



I guess everyone heard "New Jersey auto insurance is scam". I guess it's
truism. Here is my story (sorry, but it's long):



My wife caused an accident in the parking lot of our building. While backing
up she hit (nomen-omen) our landlord's truck. Caused significant damage to
our car, 1998 Nissan Altima (smashed trunk lid, bumper, tail light) and
MINIMAL damage to the truck (a Chevy Silverado) -- the bumper has been moved
by about 1 millimeter (literally) towards the car body. I guess the bumper's
bracket has been slightly bent. Otherwise not a scratch, chip or anything.
Really, I am not talking this down. A reasonable person would have probably
just ignored it, or at least we could have settled it privately, but he
decided to call the cops and eventually file a claim against our policy.
Clearly we wanted to cash out on my wife's mishap, but, well, be it --
that's his right and it was my wife's fault after all. The cop came and
collected the info. My wife wasn't issued a ticket since this was a private
property and really a minor thing.



Now, welcome to the realm of NJ auto insurance. My company (Amica) was very
swift paying the other party over $1200. If a claim is $1000 or more that
means you get "at-fault accident".



Over $1200 for such a damage seems really high, and yes I am aware about the
rates of body shops here. I asked Amica to send me copy of the damage
appraisal. Guess what -- several parts that WERE NOT DAMAGED are in the
"independent" appraisal, for example, trailer hitch that wasn't even touched
in the accident. Sure, I know damages can be worse that they seem, but there
is no way in the world, that the trailer hitch was damaged. This is clearly
a fraud and I am going to follow on this one. I was already talking to a
person handling this claim, and she wasn't very concerned about my
suspicion. I am going follow up on this one her manager and up, up to the
CEO, wherever it takes. If they don't take action, I am filing a complaint.
Btw, any advice whom to contact? The state's Banking & Insurance
Department? I guess that would be waste of time, given how corrupted the
insurance thing in NJ is.



But --- guess why they actually prefer the claim to be over $1000? We get
at-fault accident!



Well, let's assume that the claim amount was actually fair. Here is the mega
insult --- they assess "5 insurance points" to your policy. My wife has
clear driving record and never got a ticket. Now, I am being told, if she
gets any ticket within next 3 years they will not renew our policy, because
they not insure people with more than 6 points. Think about it -- if you get
into anything more serious, like accident + ticket, or you just happen to
have a measly 2 points which is the minimum you get here for any violation,
YOU ARE OUT! This is really like one-time or one-strike insurance policy!
She just happened to not have any points and get away without ticket, so she
is okay for now --- but those 5 points stay for 3 years from now! This is
ridiculous!



By the way, I have heard so many good opinions about Amica but now they seem
crooked as much as the rest. I was recommeding them to many people. No more.
Of course, it's the law in NJ to blame, but if they were decent company they
would not take advantage of that. This is stupid, too. Over several years I
was insured with them I have paid many times more in premiums than the claim
was. Now, on the next opportunity they will say good bye to us. That is even
more stupid if you think about insurance fraud that creates. For example -
people who know they are to lose their coverage anyway could think about
staging an accident before the policy is not renewed.



By the way, we have no collision insurance. I paid to fix our car about $700
using parts from junkyard. If it went thru insurance it could be as high as
$3500 -- yes, I asked and got estimate!



If all that is not scam, what it is? Comments and your stories welcome.



Grzegorz

Regarding your landlord calling the cops: Can you blame him? What if he
agreed to settle it privately and your wife later claimed it was not her
fault or whatnot. (Look at it from his perspective).

Regarding NJ insurance being a scam: all insurance is a scam in a way, not
just auto-insurance, because it is not subject to market pressures. The
victim (your landlord, in your case) has the right to go to *any* repair
shop and get an estimate. He does not have to shop around and get
competitive estimates (at least here in CA, and I suppose elsewhere).

> Regarding your landlord calling the cops: Can you blame him? What if he
> agreed to settle it privately and your wife later claimed it was not her
> fault or whatnot. (Look at it from his perspective).

As I said -- I don't really blame him. It was assine of him given how small
the problem was, and given that he knows me very well and knows that we are
trouble-free responsible tenants, well-off financially, that pays rent
always at time, takes great care of the place, etc. But this is irrelevant -
it was his right so he called cops, no problem.

> Regarding NJ insurance being a scam: all insurance is a scam in a way, not
> just auto-insurance, because it is not subject to market pressures. The
> victim (your landlord, in your case) has the right to go to *any* repair
> shop and get an estimate. He does not have to shop around and get
> competitive estimates (at least here in CA, and I suppose elsewhere).

Not so in NJ. Actually the appraisal was done by a company arranged by the
insurance company (Amica). You would suspect they would keep the amount as
low as possible. Wrong. They conveniently made it to be just above $1000,
which is the "at-fault" threshold. Here is my gripe --- the appraisal is
absolutely fraudulent, because it includes parts they were not damaged.

Want to hear another story? A week before my wife's accident I was involved
in another accident with my other car (1989 Civic). The other driver was at
fault (ran stop sign), and she also got ticket. The damage to my car was not
huge -- fender + bumper. Actually the car is driveable. However, the damage
is big enough to declare my car total loss.

Now, my Honda is an old car, sound mechanically but "junky": some rust, bent
fender, dings here and there. Mileage 126000. Also it's a bare-bones 4 speed
manual 2dr hatchbank. Very reliable but worth next to nothing. 1.5 years ago
I paid for it $500 (five hundred dollars). Just a beater car for my daily
commute (10 miles). Well, that was probably a bargain, but no way this car
could be worth more than $1000, especially today.

Guess how much they going to pay me for it (after substracting salvage
value): almost $1600!!!! (sixteen hundred dollars). The at-fault driver's
company (NJM) just called me today. Actually they said: "initially we wanted
to pay you $1200, but we reran the numbers and it came up to $1600". Very
nice of them? Not quite so. That probably means the other driver is gonna
kiss good bye her insurance: the at-fault accident + ticket (7 points at
least). Well, she was bitch trying to blame me for the accident claiming I
was speeding (I was not, which was proven by the cop; he measured the skid
marks). Still, I don't think she deserves to lose her insurance. After all I
thought you get the insurance so one day you may need to use it. I didn't
realize it's "if you happen to use it we'll kick you out" scheme.

That just shows how crooked the NJ insurance system is. I wonder how it is
in other states. Do insurance companies drop you after filing a claim on
your policy? Or how much do they jack up the rates? I am curious, as one day
I am gonna leave the Garden State anyway. Amica is not going to be my
insurance company either.

Grzegorz

Grzegorz wrote:

[...] My understanding is that the rules determining how your premiums
change depending on your accident history are completely internal to the
insurance company, and it's issentially completely up to them where to put
that "barrier" you are talking about. So it seems very illogical for them
to pay extra in claims, just so they can charge you more, as opposed to
just charging you more. Or am I missing something?

(I actually lived in NYC all my adult life, until moving to CA recently, so
I'm pretty clueless about anything pertaining cars. Those who say NYC is
very expensive forget to factor in the costs of living elsewhe car
payments, gas, parts, mechanics, tickets, fines, parking, insurance and
liposuction that go with them)

"Grzegorz" > wrote in message
...
> Hello there,
>
>
>
> I guess everyone heard "New Jersey auto insurance is scam". I guess
it's
> truism. Here is my story (sorry, but it's long):

<story snipped for brevity>

Says alot about your landlord, but the other person is right about his
having the right to go to whomever he chooses to get his vehicle fixed.
Unfortunately, it sounds like your landlord and his bodyshop are rip-off
artists - and that assumes he has the truck fixed and doesn't take the
$$$ and spend it on something else. If you want to make a complaint, you
might statrt with your state's insurance commissioner (or what ever they
call it in NJ) and/or the attourney general's office.

I assume that the "If a claim is $1000 or more that means you get
'at-fault accident,'" and this point system are things of your insurance
company and not state law. If this is the insurance company's doing, I
would suggest you start looking for another insurance company and when
you find a new company *and* have a new policy inforce, let Amica know
exactly *why* you are canceling your policy with them and why you will
never refer another person to them.

In short, its not just NJ. ALL auto insurance is a rip-off, IMO and we
have these idiotic state laws that require auto insurance to blame for
it.

> [...] My understanding is that the rules determining how your premiums
> change depending on your accident history are completely internal to the
> insurance company, and it's issentially completely up to them where to put
> that "barrier" you are talking about. So it seems very illogical for them
> to pay extra in claims, just so they can charge you more, as opposed to
> just charging you more. Or am I missing something?

Well, yeah. If the claim was < $1000 it would not be technically "at-fault"
accident. They would have no legal basis to jack up my insurance premium.
Actually a claim < $1000 in NJ is like it never existed, at least it appears
to be so. Hence their motivation to make sure it's just above $1000. There
is a logic to that makes it possible to reclaim the money they "lost" with
the claim. However, there is no logic why they want to get rid of a
profitable customer.

I believe they could have set up the "rules/barriers" in a more sensible
way. But the insurance scam here is controlled by the state goverment. And
cleary it's not for the benefit of NJ drivers.

Grzegorz

> If you want to make a complaint, you
> might statrt with your state's insurance commissioner (or what ever they
> call it in NJ) and/or the attourney general's office.

Yes, I am definately going to that.

>
> I assume that the "If a claim is $1000 or more that means you get
> 'at-fault accident,'" and this point system are things of your insurance
> company and not state law.

It's the state law, apparently. From what I remember it was the same with my
previous company 5 years ago (State Farm), except before June 2003 the
threshold was $500 (since then I was with Amica).

> If this is the insurance company's doing, I
> would suggest you start looking for another insurance company and when
> you find a new company *and* have a new policy inforce, let Amica know
> exactly *why* you are canceling your policy with them and why you will
> never refer another person to them.

Absolutely. I am not going to give them opportunity to nonrenew my policy.
Still, if I leave them now, they gonna be in black ink on my policy and they
deserve to be in red. I wish my wife actually ran over the landlord, not his
truck ;-) No, that's just bad joke. But yes, they not gonna pocket my
dollars anymore for too long.

> In short, its not just NJ. ALL auto insurance is a rip-off, IMO and we
> have these idiotic state laws that require auto insurance to blame for
> it.

Well, I think the laws should require insurance. But as such, the insurance
should be provided by non-profit institutions only. OTOH, all the insurance
is the US is totally broken idea, given lack of universal health insurance
and the litigious culture in the US. From my experience here, US is full of
"good citizens" that become hyenas as soon as they smell an opportunity to
make a buck in a "legal" way. That's gonna end badly.

Grzegorz



>
>
>
>
>

Quoting myself:

[...]


> A week before my wife's accident I was involved in another accident with
> my other car (1989 Civic). The other driver was at fault (ran stop sign),
> and she also got ticket.

[...]

> Well, she was bitch trying to blame me for the accident claiming I was
> speeding (I was not, which was proven by the cop; he measured the skid
> marks).


When I think about her behavior however dishonest was quite rational. Given
how broken the system is, that the accident plus the ticket she received
means end of her policy and puts her into the "assigned pool" insurance
which means sky-high rates. Now, after learning how the system is set up, it
is harder to blame her for being dishonest. That just shows what the system
does with people. Or, is it actually other way around?

Grzegorz

"Grzegorz" > wrote in message
...

<snip>

> is the US is totally broken idea, given lack of universal health
insurance
> and the litigious culture in the US. From my experience here, US is
full of
> "good citizens" that become hyenas as soon as they smell an
opportunity to
> make a buck in a "legal" way. That's gonna end badly.

Sadly, this is true. Especially when lawyers get involved. Remember that
train wreck in SC a couple of weeks ago? The SC Bar association is going
after several lawyers from out of state that were trying to cash in on
the accident and several people were busted for trying to change their
addresses (through the DMV with new DL's no less) to addresses that were
in the evacuation zone after the accident occured inorder to cash in....

In article >,
Scott en Aztlán <newsgroup> wrote:
>On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 00:46:48 -0500, "Grzegorz" > wrote:
>
>>> [...] My understanding is that the rules determining how your premiums
>>> change depending on your accident history are completely internal to the
>>> insurance company, and it's issentially completely up to them where to put
>>> that "barrier" you are talking about. So it seems very illogical for them
>>> to pay extra in claims, just so they can charge you more, as opposed to
>>> just charging you more. Or am I missing something?
>>
>>Well, yeah. If the claim was < $1000 it would not be technically "at-fault"
>>accident. They would have no legal basis to jack up my insurance premium.
>
>Since when does an insurance company need a legal basis (or even a
>determination of fault) to raise premiums?

Since the state started setting insurance rates.

In Massachusetts nearly all rates are set by the state. New
Jersey has a different system about as bad as Massachusetts'.
In some other states there are rules prohibiting some minor
violations (e.g. speeding tickets for less than ten over)
from being considered by insurers.

--
John Carr )