Conventional oil hard to find?

On 26-03-2021 02:25 AMuzi > wrote:

> It's vestigial from the 1950s when oil and labor were cheap
> and filters were expensive. No good reason now, certainly
> not any technical reason. I changed to oil with new filter
> every 3K miles in the 1970s.

I already explained in great detail that it's not at all about money.
It's about design and function.

Most people want a simple answer to everything which money is to them.
But not everything is a simple dollars to dollars decision like you claimed.

If all you care about is money then knowing that both the oil filter and the
oil are cheap you're welcome to throw away both at the same interval which
is why I said it's up to you.

But stop saying it's about money when that's only how YOU think.
The manufacturers think differently than you think.

For them it's about engineering.

Many manufacturers recommend oil filter intervals different than oil.
https://knowhow.napaonline.com/how-m...l-filter-last/

If you disagree with the manufacturer then you should answer this question:
Does the oil filter always fail at the exact same rate as does the oil?

On 26-03-2021 01:48 Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

> Can you see and measure how well the filter is working?

Why do you think many manufacturers recommend a filter every 2nd oil change?
https://knowhow.napaonline.com/how-o...ur-oil-filter/

On 3/26/2021 9:20 AM, mike wrote:
> On 26-03-2021 01:48 Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>> Can you see and measure how well the filter is working?
>
> Why do you think many manufacturers recommend a filter every 2nd oil
> change?
> https://knowhow.napaonline.com/how-o...ur-oil-filter/

If filters were $100 it would make some sense to wait. For 10 bucks,
give me a new one.

On 26-03-2021 19:35 Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

> If filters were $100 it would make some sense to wait.
> For 10 bucks, give me a new one.

I explained in patient detail that oil filters don't wear at the same rate.
And yet you still make all your decisions based only on dollar bills.

Trust me when I say that I fully & completely understand how you think.
Many people are exactly like you are and in fact perhaps most people are.

They don't care to understand the design & engineering of the product.
They don't understand why the manufacturer recommends the intervals they do.
They don't understand that oil wears differently than do the oil filters.

More to the important point they don't care or even try to understand.
It's hard for them to even try to understand not everything is about money.

Like you they make all their decisions in their life based only on money.
Money is the only thing they understand because it's easy to understand.

And that's OK.
Replacing parts often and well before they need to be replaced works too.
You can change your oil filter for any reason and interval you want to.

On 3/26/2021 10:26 AM, mike wrote:
> On 26-03-2021 19:35 Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>> If filters were $100 it would make some sense to wait. For 10 bucks,
>> give me a new one.
>
> I explained in patient detail that oil filters don't wear at the same rate.
> And yet you still make all your decisions based only on dollar bills.
>
> Trust me when I say that I fully & completely understand how you think.
> Many people are exactly like you are and in fact perhaps most people are.
>
> They don't care to understand the design & engineering of the product.
> They don't understand why the manufacturer recommends the intervals they
> do.
> They don't understand that oil wears differently than do the oil filters.
>
> More to the important point they don't care or even try to understand.
> It's hard for them to even try to understand not everything is about money.
>
> Like you they make all their decisions in their life based only on money.
> Money is the only thing they understand because it's easy to understand.
>
> And that's OK.
> Replacing parts often and well before they need to be replaced works too.
> You can change your oil filter for any reason and interval you want to.

Oh, I understand but conditions vary too. Short trips in a very cold
climate versus highway driving in mild temperatures. Oil should really
be tested and not just changed at some magic interval of one size fits
all. I can't see the inside of that cartridge filter, nor can I do a
flow test.
Not just about money too. I'm under the car, filter is right there, two
minutes and done. I'm certainly not going with an interval other than a
change time.

On 26-03-2021 18:10 Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

> Oh, I understand but conditions vary too.

You don't think manufacturers took all that into account when they often
recommended a filter every 2nd oil change under normal driving conditions?

> Short trips in a very cold climate versus highway driving in mild temperatures.
> Oil should really be tested and not just changed at some magic interval of one
> size fits all.

I don't disagree on having your oil sent out after the fact for testing.

> I can't see the inside of that cartridge filter, nor can I do a
> flow test.

I disagree you can't see inside that cartridge filter since teardowns exist.
(1) Why do you think it has a pleated filter & which are the best?
(2) Why do you think it has an antidrainback valve & which is best?
(3) Why do you think it has an overpressure valve & which is best?
(4) Why do you think it has a gasket for engine mating & which is best?
(5) Why do you think it has many holes around the outside & which are best?

> Not just about money too.

You had not yet mentioned a single decision that wasn't only about money.
I mentioned the specifications, OEM recommendations and the tear downs.

Clearly we think differently.

You seem to only care about money and convenience (and that's OK).
I very much care about what it is that I'm trying to accomplish.

> I'm under the car, filter is right there, two
> minutes and done. I'm certainly not going with an interval other than a
> change time.

Most people are like you in that they don't understand what it is they buy.
They just replace it without thinking using any interval they feel like.
They probably don't even read the owners manual to see what it says.

And that's OK.
You can replace your oil filter on any interval you feel like doing so.

But I'm going to base my replacement on understanding what the filter does.
And I'm also going to base it on understanding what the manufacturer says.
And I'm going to base my replacement on choosing good filters to start with.

Having said that you're welcome to replace yours on any interval you like.
But if you ask me how I choose my interval then don't only bring up money.

"mike" > wrote in message
...
> On 26-03-2021 02:25 AMuzi > wrote:
>
>> It's vestigial from the 1950s when oil and labor were cheap and filters
>> were expensive. No good reason now, certainly not any technical reason. I
>> changed to oil with new filter every 3K miles in the 1970s.
>
> I already explained in great detail that it's not at all about money.
> It's about design and function.
>
> Most people want a simple answer to everything which money is to them.
> But not everything is a simple dollars to dollars decision like you
> claimed.
>
> If all you care about is money then knowing that both the oil filter and
> the
> oil are cheap you're welcome to throw away both at the same interval which
> is why I said it's up to you.
>
> But stop saying it's about money when that's only how YOU think.
> The manufacturers think differently than you think.
>
> For them it's about engineering.
>
> Many manufacturers recommend oil filter intervals different than oil.
> https://knowhow.napaonline.com/how-m...l-filter-last/
>
> If you disagree with the manufacturer then you should answer this
> question:
> Does the oil filter always fail at the exact same rate as does the oil?

Its not fail, its about how they age.

In article >, mike <> wrote:
>On 26-03-2021 01:48 Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>> Can you see and measure how well the filter is working?
>
>Why do you think many manufacturers recommend a filter every 2nd oil change?
>https://knowhow.napaonline.com/how-o...ur-oil-filter/

Because they did their testing on new engines without a lotm of blowby.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 26-03-2021 19:05 > wrote:

> Bear in mind, the manufacturer would be perfectly happy if the car
> blew up the day after the warranty expired. Then you would have to buy
> another one. I am sure the intervals for old cars should be shorter
> than a new one if oil contamination was your main issue. More stuff
> will get by the rings for one thing.
> OTOH people who always drive old cars don't really care.

Even so for anyone to claim oil filters wear at exactly the same rate the
oil wears is just proving they don't understand there are oils that are
"longer lasting" and there are filters that are "longer lasting" (just as
their are oils and filters that are shorter lasting and conditions matter).

They're completely different things (oil & filters) with different specs.
And they're made completely differently and they also wear differently.

Every manufacturer has a maintenance table for when to check/change things.
In addition, each manufacturer of oil & filters does things differently.

There are a lot of oil specs out there to consider
SAE 0W20, 0W30, 0W40, 5W30, 5W40, 10W30, 10W40, 15W50
ACEA A1/B1, A5/B5, A3/B4 A5/B5-10, A5/B5-12
API SN, SN Plus, SN-RC, SM, SL, SP
BMW LL-01
Chrysler MS 6395
FIAT 9.55535-H2, FIAT 9.55535-M2, FIAT 9.55535-N2
Ford WSS-M2C153-H, WSS-M2C929-A, WSS-M2C930-A, WSS-M2C945-A, WSS-M2C946-A,
WSS-M2C947-A
GM-Opel LL B-025
GM 4718M, 6094M, LL-A-025, dexos1 Gen 2, Gen 3
Honda HTO-06
ILSAC GF-5, GF-4, GF-3
MB-Approval 229.5
Porsche A40
Renault RN0700, RN0710
VW 502 00 - 505 00

And there are a lot of oil filter teardowns where I've dremeled open many of
my own oil filters & I even used to send out my oil for testing years ago.

If you ask me what I base my oil filter change intervals on I'm going to
answer that I base intervals on things other than just money & convenience.
(1) I look at filter pleating, surface area, micron spec, edge glue & seam
(2) I look at the size and thickness & antidrainback valve material
(3) I especially check the type of overpressure valve (some don't exist!)
(4) I pick at the mating gasket to see if it tends to easily fall off
(5) I check the inlet holes for the number and overall diameter
(6) I like to look for the mating threads machined from the outside in
(7) I like filter cans that are 20 & 30 thou rather than 15 thousandths
(8) I look at the type of oil that I'm putting in and the type of driving

It's fine for him to claim that he only cares about money & convenience.
He can change his oil filter on any interval he wants and that's OK with me.

But if he asks me why I follow the manufacturer recommendations then he's
going to get more of an answer than just money & convenience specifically
because neither is what I use to determine my oil filter change interval.

On 26-03-2021 23:11 mike > wrote:

> (1) I look at filter pleating, surface area, micron spec, edge glue & seam
> (2) I look at the size and thickness & antidrainback valve material
> (3) I especially check the type of overpressure valve (some don't exist!)
> (4) I pick at the mating gasket to see if it tends to easily fall off
> (5) I check the inlet holes for the number and overall diameter
> (6) I like to look for the mating threads machined from the outside in
> (7) I like filter cans that are 20 & 30 thou rather than 15 thousandths
> (8) I look at the type of oil that I'm putting in and the type of driving

In that off hand list I forgot to mention what I found the first time I tore
apart a $15 Fram filter from AutoZone (which had the worst pleating ever!)

*****ty cardboard end plates*

Far less expensive oil filters have steel end plates and synthetic pleating
without visible gaps at the ends and a with a long steel clamp at the seam!