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what's the condenser for on a mechanical voltage regulator?



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 19th 07, 09:32 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
Steve[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,043
Default what's the condenser for on a mechanical voltage regulator?

Hustlin' Hank wrote:

> On Feb 18, 8:02�pm, wrote:
>
>>Just tried my '66 GTO's mechanical voltage regulator on my friend's
>>'69 Firebird and it started charging his battery again. �Even though
>>he had bought a new voltage regulator a month or so ago. �(And then an
>>alternator.) �His does not have the condenser installed on the voltage
>>regulator like mine does, but there's a terminal for it.
>>
>>I'm wondering if the condenser is necessary, maybe to keep the
>>contacts from burning? �I'd heard it was to prevent radio
>>intereference, which we don't care about. �I can't find anything in
>>the service manual about it. �If it's necessary to prevent contacts
>>burning, maybe his new voltage regulator fried its contacts.

>
>
> I could be wrong, but I always thought they were for radio noise only
> since most don't have them. The points on the voltage regulator
> solenoids don't open and close at over 1000 times per minute like the
> igniton points (only when key is turned on/off), therefore they won't
> burnt out nearly as quick.


Actually, at least one pair of contacts in a voltage regulator DOES
open/close very fast. Maybe even faster than the engine points.


Ads
  #12  
Old February 19th 07, 10:21 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default what's the condenser for on a mechanical voltage regulator?


"Bob Flumere" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:43:05 -0600, > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
> ng.com...
> >> The points 'do' arc out and burn in those regulators or you wouldn't
> >> need new ones.... I was always under the impression you needed the
> >> condenser to slow this down.

> >
> >You're right, Mike. The condensor is there to stop RFI but it does it by
> >stopping the sparking, which is an interrupted DC. Just like the

condensor
> >used to do on points, it provides a low impedance path for high frequency
> >AC or interrupted DC.
> >
> >While an electromechanical regulator might not be a critical to spark

damage
> >as ignition points were, the principle is similar.
> >

> To the OP.. you do NOT need this cap.....


I think we all agree that the capacitor is not functionally required for
this circuit
to function and the car to run.

It serves a purpose (else it would never have been put there) but the
purpose is
not a make or break situation (Well, I guess in one sense of the phrase, it
is
exactly there for 'make and break' situations;>)


  #13  
Old February 19th 07, 10:47 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
jim
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 546
Default what's the condenser for on a mechanical voltage regulator?



Bob Flumere wrote:
>
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:43:05 -0600, > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
> ng.com...
> >> The points 'do' arc out and burn in those regulators or you wouldn't
> >> need new ones.... I was always under the impression you needed the
> >> condenser to slow this down.

> >
> >You're right, Mike. The condensor is there to stop RFI but it does it by
> >stopping the sparking, which is an interrupted DC. Just like the condensor
> >used to do on points, it provides a low impedance path for high frequency
> >AC or interrupted DC.
> >
> >While an electromechanical regulator might not be a critical to spark damage
> >as ignition points were, the principle is similar.
> >

> To the OP.. you do NOT need this cap.....
> It is NOT a functional part of the charging system in any way...
> It is only a high frequency bypass to ground for radio noise
> suppression.
>
> Its purpose and connection into the circuit in this application does
> not affect nor control the arcing at the voltage control contacts...
>
> Having this cap in the circuit (or not) will not damage the regulator
> or affect the charging system in any way.
>
> The capacitor on the GM Delco voltage regulator is ONLY for RFI
> suppression.. it is not in the "Field" circuit where the altenator
> field (rotor) contacts are located.
>
> In the days of generator (as opposed to "alternator" charging systems,
> mis-connecting the RFI capacitor to the field terminal of the
> generator (an easy mistake to make in the day) would CAUSE a failure
> of the voltage control contacts in the regulator!!


Yes, I seem vaguely remember on a generator if you hooked a capacitor to
the field circuit it would actually make the contacts buzz louder.


> The cap in this particular application was mounted on the generator
> case, and designed to be connected to the generator "Armature"
> terminal which was in fact the current output terminal.
>
> GM DELCO used to put a big round red cardboard warning tag on the
> "field" terminal of the generators telling you NOT to connect the
> capacitor wire to this (field) terminal!
> In this instance, the capacitor was being used to suppress the RFI
> from the arcing at the generator brushes which would be heard as a
> "whine" on an AM radio..
>
> Of course these two connection terminals were located side by side on
> the generator case, and only a few of us could read the big red tag.
> So when this mistake was made the voltage regulator failure would
> occur within a couple hundred miles. <BG>
>
> These uses are NOT related to the use of a capacitor in "Point +
> Condenser ignition system, where the cap serves an entirely
> different function in the creation of the High Voltage spark and
> in fact does absorb the arc at the contacts that is created
> by the collapse of the field in the primary of the ignition coil on
> the "break" of the contacts.
>
> Again, I repeat, this capacitor on the Delco Altenator regulator base
> is NOT involved in the charging circuit in any way, and only exists to
> suppress the RFI generated by the arcing at the vr contacts...
> If you look at the back of the regulator base, you will see that the
> capacitor terminal is merely an extension of the "B" or Battery
> terminal lug. The capacitor from there to ground suppresses any
> HF RFI that might be generated from reaching the rest of the car's
> electrical system and thence being heard as a "popping" type of
> static on an AM radio..
>
> Feel free to ask for more technical explanation an any time.
> School is out fo now .. there will be a quiz later <G>


Hey Bob, Thanks for the info. Somewhere way back when, I think I used to
know all that. But now I think i've reached the point where I've
forgotten way more than I know.

-jim

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  #14  
Old February 20th 07, 02:52 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
Don[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 300
Default what's the condenser for on a mechanical voltage regulator?

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:25:02 -0500, Bob Flumere >
wrote:

>On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:43:05 -0600, > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
ing.com...
>>> The points 'do' arc out and burn in those regulators or you wouldn't
>>> need new ones.... I was always under the impression you needed the
>>> condenser to slow this down.

>>
>>You're right, Mike. The condensor is there to stop RFI but it does it by
>>stopping the sparking, which is an interrupted DC. Just like the condensor
>>used to do on points, it provides a low impedance path for high frequency
>>AC or interrupted DC.
>>
>>While an electromechanical regulator might not be a critical to spark damage
>>as ignition points were, the principle is similar.
>>

>To the OP.. you do NOT need this cap.....
>It is NOT a functional part of the charging system in any way...
>It is only a high frequency bypass to ground for radio noise
>suppression.
>
>Its purpose and connection into the circuit in this application does
>not affect nor control the arcing at the voltage control contacts...
>
>Having this cap in the circuit (or not) will not damage the regulator
>or affect the charging system in any way.
>
>The capacitor on the GM Delco voltage regulator is ONLY for RFI
>suppression.. it is not in the "Field" circuit where the altenator
>field (rotor) contacts are located.
>
>In the days of generator (as opposed to "alternator" charging systems,
>mis-connecting the RFI capacitor to the field terminal of the
>generator (an easy mistake to make in the day) would CAUSE a failure
>of the voltage control contacts in the regulator!!
>The cap in this particular application was mounted on the generator
>case, and designed to be connected to the generator "Armature"
>terminal which was in fact the current output terminal.
>
>GM DELCO used to put a big round red cardboard warning tag on the
>"field" terminal of the generators telling you NOT to connect the
>capacitor wire to this (field) terminal!
>In this instance, the capacitor was being used to suppress the RFI
>from the arcing at the generator brushes which would be heard as a
>"whine" on an AM radio..
>
>Of course these two connection terminals were located side by side on
>the generator case, and only a few of us could read the big red tag.
>So when this mistake was made the voltage regulator failure would
>occur within a couple hundred miles. <BG>
>
>These uses are NOT related to the use of a capacitor in "Point +
>Condenser ignition system, where the cap serves an entirely
>different function in the creation of the High Voltage spark and
>in fact does absorb the arc at the contacts that is created
>by the collapse of the field in the primary of the ignition coil on
>the "break" of the contacts.
>
>Again, I repeat, this capacitor on the Delco Altenator regulator base
>is NOT involved in the charging circuit in any way, and only exists to
>suppress the RFI generated by the arcing at the vr contacts...
>If you look at the back of the regulator base, you will see that the
>capacitor terminal is merely an extension of the "B" or Battery
>terminal lug. The capacitor from there to ground suppresses any
> HF RFI that might be generated from reaching the rest of the car's
>electrical system and thence being heard as a "popping" type of
>static on an AM radio..
>
>Feel free to ask for more technical explanation an any time.
>School is out fo now .. there will be a quiz later <G>
>
>
>
>Bob F.


You are correct. You beat me to it. Seems like there are a lot of
people out there equating this condensor to condensor as in "points
and condensor." WRONG!!

Don
www.donsautomotive.com

  #15  
Old February 20th 07, 04:55 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
Mike Romain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,758
Default what's the condenser for on a mechanical voltage regulator?

Don wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:25:02 -0500, Bob Flumere >
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:43:05 -0600, > wrote:
>>
>>> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message
>>> g.com...
>>>> The points 'do' arc out and burn in those regulators or you wouldn't
>>>> need new ones.... I was always under the impression you needed the
>>>> condenser to slow this down.
>>> You're right, Mike. The condensor is there to stop RFI but it does it by
>>> stopping the sparking, which is an interrupted DC. Just like the condensor
>>> used to do on points, it provides a low impedance path for high frequency
>>> AC or interrupted DC.
>>>
>>> While an electromechanical regulator might not be a critical to spark damage
>>> as ignition points were, the principle is similar.
>>>

>> To the OP.. you do NOT need this cap.....
>> It is NOT a functional part of the charging system in any way...
>> It is only a high frequency bypass to ground for radio noise
>> suppression.
>>
>> Its purpose and connection into the circuit in this application does
>> not affect nor control the arcing at the voltage control contacts...
>>
>> Having this cap in the circuit (or not) will not damage the regulator
>> or affect the charging system in any way.
>>
>> The capacitor on the GM Delco voltage regulator is ONLY for RFI
>> suppression.. it is not in the "Field" circuit where the altenator
>> field (rotor) contacts are located.
>>

<snip unrelated rambling>
>>
>> Again, I repeat, this capacitor on the Delco Altenator regulator base
>> is NOT involved in the charging circuit in any way, and only exists to
>> suppress the RFI generated by the arcing at the vr contacts...
>> If you look at the back of the regulator base, you will see that the
>> capacitor terminal is merely an extension of the "B" or Battery
>> terminal lug. The capacitor from there to ground suppresses any
>> HF RFI that might be generated from reaching the rest of the car's
>> electrical system and thence being heard as a "popping" type of
>> static on an AM radio..
>>
>> Feel free to ask for more technical explanation an any time.
>> School is out fo now .. there will be a quiz later <G>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob F.

>
> You are correct. You beat me to it. Seems like there are a lot of
> people out there equating this condensor to condensor as in "points
> and condensor." WRONG!!
>
> Don
> www.donsautomotive.com
>

Ok, so now you have me curious.

Just how does this condenser affect RF if it doesn't mellow out (buffer)
the arc from the points?

If the points arced closed and stuck from a bad alternator, not having
the condenser on the power feed might have allowed this to happen 'much'
faster than if the buffer action from it was in there, or I am not
remembering right.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
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  #16  
Old February 20th 07, 07:09 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default what's the condenser for on a mechanical voltage regulator?


"Don" > wrote in message
...

>
> You are correct. You beat me to it. Seems like there are a lot of
> people out there equating this condensor to condensor as in "points
> and condensor." WRONG!!
>
> Don
> www.donsautomotive.com


It is more a matter of degree than the electronics behind it for the
regulator.
RFI suppression capacitors can be used at a lot of places where there is
no functional or fundamental need for the.

The need for the capacitor is much more in a Kettering points setup, not so
much for RFI protection but to lengthen the life of the points themselves.
Left alone, the current through the points and the arcing due to this
current
can transfer metal from one face to the other causing early failure.


  #17  
Old February 20th 07, 11:13 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 166
Default what's the condenser for on a mechanical voltage regulator?

On Feb 20, 11:09 am, > wrote:
> "Don" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > You are correct. You beat me to it. Seems like there are a lot of
> > people out there equating this condensor to condensor as in "points
> > and condensor." WRONG!!

>
> > Don
> >www.donsautomotive.com

>
> It is more a matter of degree than the electronics behind it for the
> regulator.
> RFI suppression capacitors can be used at a lot of places where there is
> no functional or fundamental need for the.
>
> The need for the capacitor is much more in a Kettering points setup, not so
> much for RFI protection but to lengthen the life of the points themselves.
> Left alone, the current through the points and the arcing due to this
> current
> can transfer metal from one face to the other causing early failure.


There's more to it than that. The arc that jumps the points
as they open represents continued current flow, reducing the sharpness
of the magnetic flux collapse that generates the spark voltage in the
secondary. The condenser provides a temporary path for the electron
flow as the points begin to open, and by the time the capacitor is
full the points are too far apart to start any arcing, and the current
stops much more abruptly. A bad (open) condenser will kill the engine
just as quick as a shorted one.
Just try starting the engine without the condenser installed;
it won't run. Not enough spark. The automotive textbooks I've read
have only the "points-burn prevention" theory as the reason for the
condenser. Not until I studied for my aircraft maintenance engineer's
ticket did I find the real reason for it in the aircraft texbooks. An
old guy once told me many years ago that the (auto) engine wouldn't
run without the condenser; he didn't know why, just that it wouldn't.
I tried it, and sure enough, dead as a doornail.
My Unison/Slick magneto manual says that the condenser also
boosts the mag primary current for the next firing; this is true only
because the magneto generates alternating current for the primary, as
opposed to the DC system in the car.

Dan

  #18  
Old February 21st 07, 12:02 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
jim
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 546
Default what's the condenser for on a mechanical voltage regulator?



wrote:

> There's more to it than that. The arc that jumps the points
> as they open represents continued current flow, reducing the sharpness
> of the magnetic flux collapse that generates the spark voltage in the
> secondary. The condenser provides a temporary path for the electron
> flow as the points begin to open, and by the time the capacitor is
> full the points are too far apart to start any arcing, and the current
> stops much more abruptly.


That's an interesting way of putting it.

The coil capacitor combination form a resonant circuit. When the points
open the output is a very high voltage AC waveform if you don't have it
hooked up to a spark plug. With a spark plug in the secondary circuit
there is a discharge before the AC wave form reaches it's first peak.
Before the points open the condenser is not in the current path. A
capacitor will not pass DC current but does pass AC current.

>A bad (open) condenser will kill the engine
> just as quick as a shorted one.
> Just try starting the engine without the condenser installed;
> it won't run. Not enough spark. The automotive textbooks I've read
> have only the "points-burn prevention" theory as the reason for the
> condenser. Not until I studied for my aircraft maintenance engineer's
> ticket did I find the real reason for it in the aircraft texbooks. An
> old guy once told me many years ago that the (auto) engine wouldn't
> run without the condenser; he didn't know why, just that it wouldn't.
> I tried it, and sure enough, dead as a doornail.


That's right the condenser is designed (by design the correct size is
picked to match the coil) to increase the voltage. The increased
voltage actually increases the arcing at the points simply because more
voltage means more arcing. There is another capacitor that is often
placed on the positive terminal of the coil that is designed to reduce
noise.

-jim


> My Unison/Slick magneto manual says that the condenser also
> boosts the mag primary current for the next firing; this is true only
> because the magneto generates alternating current for the primary, as
> opposed to the DC system in the car.
>
> Dan


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  #19  
Old February 21st 07, 01:02 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
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Posts: n/a
Default what's the condenser for on a mechanical voltage regulator?


"jim" > wrote in message
...\

Kettering will work without a condensor.....for a short period of time. It
has little to do with the series
resonant circuit.

Kettering works by building an electromagnetic field in the coil during the
'make' or 'dwell' portion
of the points. When you open the points, the field decays, and a high
voltage is induced in the coil.

If you have a condensor which is badly out of range, or none at all, the
points will be compromised.

If you have a shorted condensor, then you get nothing.


 




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