HOV lane behavior...

Scott en Aztlán > writes:

>On Fri, 27 May 2005 12:07:49 GMT, "Craig Holl"
> wrote:

>>Scott en Aztlán wrote:
>>> On 26 May 2005 10:19:38 -0700, wrote:

>>>>> Slower Traffic Keep Right still applies.

>>>> Not in the case of an HOV lane. Statutes in my state, at least (and
>>>> this stuff is usually boilerplate from state to state) sets the
>>>> farthest left GP lane as the left-most lane, ignoring the HOV lane.
>>>> It operates as a separate system for purposes of KRETP.

>>> Cite.

>>> In CA, CVC 21654 makes no exceptions for users of the HOV lane.

>>Here are a couple pictures which clearly show that the HOV lanes on I-405
>>are a separate facility from the GP lanes. Yellow lines indicate separate
>>streams of traffic.

>That's the best you can do?

>Face it, you're wrong. HOV lanes are part of the SAME road, and
>subject to the SAME rules - the ONLY exceptions (who may enter and
>where) are clearly specified by law.

That's all fine and dandy if you're in California...which 90% of us in this
country aren't. You'd be burnt toast on the vast majority of Houston's HOVs -
which are separated from the freeway mainlanes by jersey walls, save for two
stretches (59 in Fort Bend, and I-10 Katy between 6 and Mason). Trying to
pass in those conditions is charitably described as suicidal.

--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey ) Houston, Texas
chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (soon to be TCI's 2005-06 Houston Aeros)
LAST GAME: Chicago 5, Houston 3 (April 26)
NEXT GAME: Date/opponent/site TBA in August 2005

Scott en Aztlán > writes:

>On 26 May 2005 23:33:06 -0700, wrote:

[...]

>>Three, in any case, you *are* in the act of passing almost continuously
>>in most HOV lanes I've seen.

>Not if the guy in front of you is a Sloth - which is what we're
>talking about. In my experience, unless the ragular lanes are
>completely stopped, the HOV lanes are nearly useless because some
>Sloth MFFY will park his ass in the HOV lane at 60 MPH even though
>cars in the #1 lane are passing him on the right at 85. This is why I
>almost never use them.

Your experience just about guarantees you'll never be seen in Houston...which
is okay with me. We have enough idiots on the roads here as it is.

--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey ) Houston, Texas
chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (soon to be TCI's 2005-06 Houston Aeros)
LAST GAME: Chicago 5, Houston 3 (April 26)
NEXT GAME: Date/opponent/site TBA in August 2005

Scott en Aztl=E1n wrote:

> >And please, find one judge on earth who feels the fastest car on the
> >road is "the normal speed of traffic".
>
> I never made that claim. That was some Sloth who came up with that
> silly idea.

You said that if someone behind you wants to go 90, you have to speed
up to 90 until you reach a sloth who isn't doing 90, or move into the
GP lanes.

Part of the VC you quoted states that you have to keep right if you're
not going "the normal speed of traffic." It also says you have to keep
right unless you're passing.

I noticed you didn't address the part where I brought up that the VC
you cited specifically says if you're passing, you're not in violation.
If you're passing hundreds of cars in the GP lanes and going "the
normal speed of traffic," you're not in violation the way it's written.

Dave

In article >,
Scott en Aztlán <newsgroup> wrote:
>On 26 May 2005 09:59:37 -0700, wrote:
>>And you are under no obligation to match the speed of the fastest
>>vehicle in the lane.
>
>CA VC 21654 says you're wrong.

Here is California Vehicle Code 21654:

21654. (a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any
vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal
speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be
driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable
to the right-hand edge or curb, except when overtaking and passing
another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing
for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or
driveway.
(b) If a vehicle is being driven at a speed less than the normal
speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time, and is
not being driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as
practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, it shall constitute prima
facie evidence that the driver is operating the vehicle in violation
of subdivision (a) of this section.
(c) The Department of Transportation, with respect to state
highways, and local authorities, with respect to highways under their
jurisdiction, may place and maintain upon highways official signs
directing slow-moving traffic to use the right-hand traffic lane
except when overtaking and passing another vehicle or preparing for a
left turn.

It says "normal speed of traffic", not "fastest vehicle in the lane".

If the HOV lane is considered part of the freeway, then the original
poster's situation has him passing the other freeway traffic (which,
due to sheer volume, would define the "normal speed of traffic")
pretty much continuously, so he is under no obligation to go to the
right lane of the freeway.

If the HOV lane is considered a separate road, then the original poster
is in the right lane of the one lane HOV "road".

Note that the "slower traffic use turnouts" law (California Vehicle
Code 21656) only applies to two-lane roads.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee
Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome.
No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.

Scott en Aztl=E1n wrote:
> On 26 May 2005 23:33:06 -0700, wrote:
>
> >Besides, the incidental usage of the *HOV* lane by other permitted
> >vehicles does not negate the high-occupancy vehicle as the primary
> >usage.
>
> Show me where I claimed that this was the PRIMARY usage.

In the very words that name the facility: "High Occupancy Vehicle"
lanes. They are set up in legislation for the primary purpose of
accommodating vehicles that carry 2, or sometimes 3 or more, people.
That's why they were built. Please don't continue to look silly by
trying to deny this.

> In any case,
> nothing you have said so far does anything to debunk my primary point.

Actually, I did. I debunked all of it. The HOV lane is not considered
the far left lane of the GP lanes; it is its own facility. KRETP does
not apply; the law you cited contradicted your own point. An HOV driver
has no obligation to go back into the GP lanes to his right if there's
no one to his right for him to pass. Therefore, no KRETP. In fact, in
many places such as California, it is *illegal* for the HOV driver to
move right, into the GP lanes, unless he is at a dashed-line location
provided for this.

> >Three, in any case, you *are* in the act of passing almost continuously
> >in most HOV lanes I've seen.
>
> Not if the guy in front of you is a Sloth - which is what we're
> talking about. In my experience, unless the ragular lanes are
> completely stopped, the HOV lanes are nearly useless because some
> Sloth MFFY will park his ass in the HOV lane at 60 MPH even though
> cars in the #1 lane are passing him on the right at 85. This is why I
> almost never use them.

Doesn't matter. The law you cited only obligates drivers who are not
moving at the normal speed of traffic to KRETP. You, at 90, are *not*
going at the normal speed of traffic. You are the opposite of the
normal speed of traffic -- you are an outlier. If you come up behind
someone going slower than you, the law you cited does not obligate him
to get out of your way even in the GP lanes, as long as he is going the
normal speed of traffic and he is passing other cars at the time.

Scott en Aztl=E1n wrote:
> On Fri, 27 May 2005 12:07:49 GMT, "Craig Holl"
> > wrote:
>
> >Scott en Aztl=E1n wrote:
> >> On 26 May 2005 10:19:38 -0700, wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Slower Traffic Keep Right still applies.
> >>>
> >>> Not in the case of an HOV lane. Statutes in my state, at least (and
> >>> this stuff is usually boilerplate from state to state) sets the
> >>> farthest left GP lane as the left-most lane, ignoring the HOV lane.
> >>> It operates as a separate system for purposes of KRETP.
> >>
> >> Cite.

In Colorado, as I mentioned earlier, it is placed right in the KRETP
law itself:

CRS 42-4-1013. Passing lane - definitions - penalty.

(1) A person shall not drive a motor vehicle in the passing lane of a
highway if the speed limit is sixty-five miles per hour or more unless
such person is passing other motor vehicles that are in a nonpassing
lane or turning left, or unless the volume of traffic does not permit
the motor vehicle to safely merge into a nonpassing lane.

(2) For the purposes of this section:

(a) "Nonpassing lane" means any lane that is to the right of the
passing lane if there are two or more adjacent lanes of traffic moving
in the same direction in one roadway.

(b) "Passing lane" means the farthest to the left lane if there are two
or more adjacent lanes of traffic moving in the same direction in one
roadway; ***except that, if such left lane is restricted to high
occupancy vehicle use or is designed for left turns only, the passing
lane shall be the lane immediately to the right of such high occupancy
lane or left-turn lane.***

That last sentence is what does it. BTW, talk to any traffic engineer
about this. The HOV lanes are *never* regarded as the far left lanes of
the GP system. They are separately regulated.

> >> In CA, CVC 21654 makes no exceptions for users of the HOV lane.

That's because they are not a part of the GP lanes and so no exception
is required; there are different rules for the HOV lanes.

> >Here are a couple pictures which clearly show that the HOV lanes on I-405
> >are a separate facility from the GP lanes. Yellow lines indicate separa=
te
> >streams of traffic.
>
> That's the best you can do?

Do you mean to say, that his providing you visual proof of our point
isn't the best? What could be better?

> Face it, you're wrong. HOV lanes are part of the SAME road, and
> subject to the SAME rules - the ONLY exceptions (who may enter and
> where) are clearly specified by law.

Let's go to the photo again.... Hmmmm. You're wrong. I mena, just think
about it for a second. You *cannot* move to the right in those HOV
lanes -- it is *illegal* to do that unless you are at one of the
designated crossovers. The fines are quite high for violating it.

Scott en Aztlán wrote:
> On Fri, 27 May 2005 12:16:09 GMT, "Craig Holl"
> > wrote:
>
>> Scott en Aztlán wrote:
>>> On Wed, 25 May 2005 23:27:52 -0500, "brink" >
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> that's why i don't think the "you must *always* let faster traffic
>>>> pass" mantra just can't apply so dogmatically in HOV lanes...
>>>> because in this scenario the guy who's doing 80 MPH needs to cut
>>>> into the 25 MPH traffic to let the 90 MPH guy by.
>>>
>>> So speed up to 90. What usually ends up happening is you catch up to
>>> the Sloth in front of you, forcing to to slow down anyway. However,
>>> at least YOU were not the asshole.
>>
>> Here's a situation for you: The HOV lane is pretty much deserted.
>> I'm driving 100 mph. (which I would readily do, if not for fear of
>> a speeding ticket) I just pass one of the zones that allows
>> crossovers between HOV and GP lanes. The next one is in 3 miles.
>> But little do I know, there is a Lamborghini driving 200 mph in the
>> HOV lane, but he's two miles behind me. I could not see him because
>> of the geometry of the road. So two miles later, he catches me, but I'm
>> still a mile from the next crossover. I'd speed up, but 105 mph is the
>> fastest my Cavalier will go. Was I wrong to be in the HOV lane?
>> Should I have left it clear in case someone doing 200 mph needed to
>> use it?
>
> What's the point of making up ridiculous extreme scenarios? The law
> specifically refers to the NORMAL speed of traffic. If the normal
> speed of traffic is 200 MPH, then yes, you need to get the **** out of
> the way. However, while my example of 90 MPH is pretty much the norm
> on some stretches (especially I-5 between The OC and San Diego), I
> can't recall driving on any roads where normal speeds approached 200
> MPH.

It may be extreme, but it is an extremely remote possibility. I was just
wondering if you thought I would be in the wrong in that situation. If the
100/200 mph situation isn't wrong, then at what speeds (for both cars) would
it be wrong? Where is the cutoff?

I know this whole scenario is off the principle topic, which is about
whether HOV lanes are a separate facility or are the leftmost passing lane
for the GP lanes. But I thought of the situation and thought I'd get your
input.

--
Craig Holl
Mechanical Engineer; New Berlin, WI
www.midwestroads.com
*remove all numbers and caps to reply*

Scott en Aztlán wrote:
> On 26 May 2005 23:33:06 -0700, wrote:
>
>> Three, in any case, you *are* in the act of passing almost
>> continuously in most HOV lanes I've seen.
>
> Not if the guy in front of you is a Sloth - which is what we're
> talking about. In my experience, unless the ragular lanes are
> completely stopped, the HOV lanes are nearly useless because some
> Sloth MFFY will park his ass in the HOV lane at 60 MPH even though
> cars in the #1 lane are passing him on the right at 85. This is why I
> almost never use them.

If traffic in the GP lanes can go 85 mph, there's no need to be in the HOV
lane. The main benefit of HOV lanes is when the GP lanes are backed up. It
gives people making efficient use of the freeway (HOVs) an incentive to do
so, by letting them go 10-60 mph faster than the general flow.

--
Craig Holl
Mechanical Engineer; New Berlin, WI
www.midwestroads.com
*remove all numbers and caps to reply*

Scott en Aztlán wrote:
> On Fri, 27 May 2005 12:07:49 GMT, "Craig Holl"
> > wrote:
>
>> Scott en Aztlán wrote:
>>> On 26 May 2005 10:19:38 -0700, wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Slower Traffic Keep Right still applies.
>>>>
>>>> Not in the case of an HOV lane. Statutes in my state, at least (and
>>>> this stuff is usually boilerplate from state to state) sets the
>>>> farthest left GP lane as the left-most lane, ignoring the HOV lane.
>>>> It operates as a separate system for purposes of KRETP.
>>>
>>> Cite.
>>>
>>> In CA, CVC 21654 makes no exceptions for users of the HOV lane.
>>
>> Here are a couple pictures which clearly show that the HOV lanes on
>> I-405 are a separate facility from the GP lanes. Yellow lines
>> indicate separate streams of traffic.
>
> That's the best you can do?
>
> Face it, you're wrong. HOV lanes are part of the SAME road, and
> subject to the SAME rules - the ONLY exceptions (who may enter and
> where) are clearly specified by law.

I am almost always in agreement with you when it comes to speed limits and
KRETP. But you are clearly wrong about HOV lanes being the left lanes of
the GP lanes. Kevin Flynn has cited Colorado VC, which I have copied he

(b) "Passing lane" means the farthest to the left lane if there are two
or more adjacent lanes of traffic moving in the same direction in one
roadway; ***except that, if such left lane is restricted to high
occupancy vehicle use or is designed for left turns only, the passing
lane shall be the lane immediately to the right of such high occupancy
lane or left-turn lane.***

That states, in clear terms, that the HOV lane is not the passing lane.
That's for Colorado. But in the absence of any wording from California
stating that the HOV lane is the passing lane, I would assume that
Colorado's code is pretty much standard for most states. Not to mention the
yellow lines between the GP and HOV lanes pretty clearly shows that they are
separate roadways.

If there were two or more HOV lanes in each direction, normal lane
discipline (KRETP, etc) would be neccesary between those HOV lanes. But
lane discipline does not and can not apply between two separate roadways.

--
Craig Holl
Mechanical Engineer; New Berlin, WI
www.midwestroads.com
*remove all numbers and caps to reply*

Scott en Aztl=E1n wrote:
> On 27 May 2005 08:23:02 -0700, wrote:
>
> >> >Keep the pace with whom?
> >>
> >> With the normal speed of traffic, of course.
> >
> >Normal speed of traffic is 25, or less.
>
> You must have some strange freeways where you live. Around here,
> NORMAL speeds are 75 - 90 MPH; speeds of 25 MPH are EXCEPTIONS to the
> norm.

No ****, Sherlock.

When the rest of the traffic is going 25, that's the normal speed!

OK, follow along - it's heavy traffic on the highway. I'm going 65, 40
mph faster than the rest of non-HOV traffic. I'm passing slower
traffic to my right.

What is your major malfunction with that?

Now, in clear traffic, I don't get into the HOV lane, because there's
no need to. But when it's congested, I get into the HOV lane to pass
slower traffic.

The 80mph dude is NOT going the normal speed, so using the fastest
driver to define normal is just plain stupid.

Try again?

E=2EP.