to change a Honda Accord 1988 model timing belt

"TeGGeR®" > wrote in
:

> "Elle" > wrote in
> news >
>> "TeGGeR®" > wrote
>>> "Elle" > wrote
>>> > I changed my site earlier today to indicate that this matter was my
>>> > theory.
>>>
>>>
>>> And I've changed mine.
>>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#crankbolt
>>
>> Looked it over. You've drug a whole Usenet battle unrelated to the
>> goal of fixing Hondas onto your site.
>>
>> I don't support Jim's precession theory.
>
>
> OK.
>
>
>>
>> You have not represented my position accurately.
>
>
>
>
> So then your theory revolves completely around heat distortion?
>
> The only way heat could affect torque is if the bolt screwed itself in
> further while it heated, and if its receiving hole did not also grow
> longer. Simple elongation will not do anything unless that elongated
> material can creep around the threads and stay elongated for evermore.
>
>


Opinion page taken down pending clarification.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"TeGGeR®" > wrote
> "Elle" > wrote
> > "TeGGeR®" > wrote
> >> "Elle" > wrote
> >> > I changed my site earlier today to indicate that this matter was my
> >> > theory.
> >>
> >>
> >> And I've changed mine.
> >> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#crankbolt
> >
> > Looked it over. You've drug a whole Usenet battle unrelated to the
> > goal of fixing Hondas onto your site.
> >
> > I don't support Jim's precession theory.
>
>
> OK.
>
>
> >
> > You have not represented my position accurately.
>
>
>
>
> So then your theory revolves completely around heat distortion?
>
> The only way heat could affect torque is if the bolt screwed itself in
> further while it heated, and if its receiving hole did not also grow
> longer. Simple elongation will not do anything unless that elongated
> material can creep around the threads and stay elongated for evermore.

I have responded to this point more than once already. Bozo did also, and I
agree with what he said. I don't know what words to use to make it anymore
clear.

I took my web site down.

I don't agree with everything on your site or on the (at least) two
technical, homemade sites to which my web site pages link. But I feel no
need to reproduce battles over minor disagreements when all these sites do
far more good than bad.

If you have a better solution to resolve what I think is a trivial conflict
gone out of control, I will hear it out.

"jim beam" > wrote
> Elle wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > My standards for communicating technical material are high. In addition,
> > because of what I think is a very different background, I think I
> > communicate in a way that a lot of old hands (mostly men, by
coincidence)
> > find different.
> >
>
> i'm sure i'll regret such a dumb question, but wtf has gender got to do
> with it??????????

Women use the F word less?

;-)

It's not a dumb question. My take, FWIW:

Boys as youngsters are encouraged to explore the workings of mechanical,
electrical, and electronic gadgets more than girls. (With some exceptions.)
Girls quickly become accustomed to not showing curiosity, because it's seen
as unfeminine. It doesn't get them attention the way dressing up and finding
the perfect haircut etc. do. And guys feed this to some extent, though I
doubt it's an entirely conscious thing. E.g. girls on the softball field who
are best remembered by some of the men are the bona fide babes, not the
athletes. (Again there are exceptions.)

Hence many of the women who ultimately do want to do much more with
mechanical, electrical, etc. gadgetry start fiddling with--putting their
hands on--such gadgets at a much later age than men.

The consequence of this is females' less intuitive (so to speak)
understanding of mechanical leverage, circuits, etc. They don't "get" things
as quickly as guys do. I speak not just for myself but from educating
college engineering students, both boys and girls. The difference is very
noticeable. I reached the point where I could quickly discern the gals who
flat out could not imagine certain stress concepts and needed more graphic
or hands on examples to help them understand. (Some of the boys would have
problems and need these aids, too, but it tended to be the girls moreso.)
Supporting this is also an observation from a former, elderly colleague of
mine: The guys weren't even as adept as mastering concepts in the 1990s,
because fewer and fewer were working on cars, the farm tractor, around the
house, carpentry, whatever, and instead were spending more of their boyhood
on computers.

I did some fidgeting with gadgets as a young girl. E.g. I built my own radio
using a relative's old Navy radar basic textbook. I got stuck where it said
to install a "cat whisker." (It was an /old/ textbook!) My relative helped
and said a crystal diode would work fine instead. He got one for me. I put
it in. The radio worked! Very cool, but not something I ever advertised as
having done until I was in my 30s, cause it was, ya know, geeky. I still
remember the weird looking old capacitor I used to tune the radio to
different stations. Granted I got only a few stations.

But I never worked on cars as a kid. I did my first oil change at the age of
23. I had a lot of hands on experience in college, turning a lot of
wrenches, for one, due to the nature of the unusual program I was in. But I
was way behind the learning curve when taking that hands on experience and
applying it in the engineering classroom. The way forces work together was
something that was often obvious to certain boys who were poor at
mathematics (unlike myself). I had to read and reread descriptions in
textbooks, and eventually would devise little desktop experiments, where
possible, to prove, reinforce, and then master a concept to the point I
could teach it or publish it in reputable places. (And I mean that
literally.)

So in a nutshell, if the words describing a technical concept aren't dead on
accurate, I will be more likely than a lot of men to scratch my head and
wonder, say, 'Did he mean this? Or could this phrase instead mean that?'

Not to say my technical writing is perfect.

I'm not asking you to buy any of this. It's just my take, based on years as
an engineering educator yada. In no way do I profess to know as much about
auto repairs and maintenance as many of the regulars here.

Elle wrote:
> "jim beam" > wrote
>
>>Elle wrote:
>><snip>
>>
>>>My standards for communicating technical material are high. In addition,
>>>because of what I think is a very different background, I think I
>>>communicate in a way that a lot of old hands (mostly men, by
>
> coincidence)
>
>>>find different.
>>>
>>
>>i'm sure i'll regret such a dumb question, but wtf has gender got to do
>>with it??????????
>
>
> Women use the F word less?

Hah! You should meet some of the women I know!


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"TeGGeR®" > wrote in message

This bolt must be a special micro-thread indented with a "one-way"
design. This "self-torque" design makes sense since we are not allowed
to oil anywhere else except on the threads. The oiling protects the micro-
threads. Here's an image of a bolt.

http://square.cjb.cc/images/bolt.jpg

Do not oil the the bolt's face or the washer otherwise the mechanism will not work.

> Consider that if the clamped mass can move in ONE direction, it follows
> that it can move BACK IN THE OTHER. And for your theory to work, the
> clamped masses would have to move back and forth repeatedly.
> Since it is much easier for the bolt to back out (releasing tension) than
> to screw in some more (increasing tension), the bolt in a such a joint
> would tend to LOOSEN. And if you do your own Google searches, you'll find
> ALL references to clamp-bolts and precession referring to LOOSENING.
> This back-and-forth causes an effect known as "fretting", which ultimately
> LOOSENS the bolt.

Which ultimately tightens itself once properly torque. The recommended torque
is required to make the "one way" thread to work. If not torqued correctly the
the mechanism will fail and the pulley will fall out. Otherwise they'd probably
recommend a cotter pin or stake-in lock (found in tie rod, AT clutch, wheel
hub ends, and etc.)

> The Honda bolt does not loosen because it has been tightened to a position
> that will remain undisturbed until somebody disturbs it.
> If you fail to tighten a Honda bolt sufficiently, it will FALL OUT, not
> tighten more. My neighbor three doors down had just that happen to his
> Prelude years ago. His neighbor replaced the timing belt, but lacking a
> torque wrench, he just tightened the crank bolt to what felt right. Well,
> tight it was, but NOT TIGHT ENOUGH. *Precession* from the clamped mass
> BACKED THE BOLT back out again and the pulley fell off on the highway!

The momentum difference from the alternator, AC etc. and the transmission
will allow the pulley to move back and forth, unless the pulley is torque to 300lb.
The back and forth pulley movements aid the "one way" threads which ultimately
"self-torque" itself under different conditions. The bolt will continue to tighten
(screw in in) probably beyond 300lb until pulley stops sliding back and forth.
How much it tightens differs in various driving styles, transmission shift harshness
or various climates.

> The theory that the bolt tightens flies in the face of everything I've been
> able to find. It flies in the face of logic.
> The joint, once correctly torqued, does NOT move. That bolt gets harder to
> remove NOT because it tightens more from engine rotation, but from
> corrosion, and (I think) "settling" at the surface texture level.

If the bolt doesn't tighten itself on a part that has a potential for play then their
is a potential for the bolt to unwind. Either stake it, castlenut/cotter pin it or in
this case use a one-way threaded bolt.

I googled using a number of different keywords and turned up only a few (and
I do mean no more than two) posts to Usenet that talk about such a bolt. The
posts were in automotive or motorcycle newsgroups.

I even searched the academic literature. Nothing's turning up.

Do you have a citation, online or offline, to back up your assertions below?
(I don't reject them. I'd like to see a tad more support for them.)

I agree the unusually fine thread pitch (even smaller than the standard fine
thread pitch) combined with the loads on and temperature variations of the
crankshaft, bolt, and pulley must have everything to do with why this bolt
tightens so.

I remain a little troubled at the axial load in the bolt implied by such a
torque. But I suppose if you are correct below, that it's possible that this
microthread design means that a certain torque correlates even less than
usual to axial load.

"Burt S." > wrote
> This bolt must be a special micro-thread indented with a "one-way"
> design. This "self-torque" design makes sense since we are not allowed
> to oil anywhere else except on the threads. The oiling protects the micro-
> threads. Here's an image of a bolt.
>
> http://square.cjb.cc/images/bolt.jpg
>
> Do not oil the the bolt's face or the washer otherwise the mechanism will
not work.

T wrote
> > This back-and-forth causes an effect known as "fretting", which
ultimately
> > LOOSENS the bolt.
>
> Which ultimately tightens itself once properly torque. The recommended
torque
> is required to make the "one way" thread to work. If not torqued correctly
the
> the mechanism will fail and the pulley will fall out. Otherwise they'd
probably
> recommend a cotter pin or stake-in lock (found in tie rod, AT clutch,
wheel
> hub ends, and etc.)
>
> The momentum difference from the alternator, AC etc. and the transmission
> will allow the pulley to move back and forth, unless the pulley is torque
to 300lb.
> The back and forth pulley movements aid the "one way" threads which
ultimately
> "self-torque" itself under different conditions. The bolt will continue to
tighten
> (screw in in) probably beyond 300lb until pulley stops sliding back and
forth.
> How much it tightens differs in various driving styles, transmission shift
harshness
> or various climates.
>
> If the bolt doesn't tighten itself on a part that has a potential for play
then their
> is a potential for the bolt to unwind. Either stake it, castlenut/cotter
pin it or in
> this case use a one-way threaded bolt.

"Elle" > wrote in message ink.net...

> I googled using a number of different keywords and turned up only a few (and
> I do mean no more than two) posts to Usenet that talk about such a bolt. The
> posts were in automotive or motorcycle newsgroups.
> I even searched the academic literature. Nothing's turning up.
> (I don't reject them. I'd like to see a tad more support for them.)
> I agree the unusually fine thread pitch (even smaller than the standard fine
> thread pitch) combined with the loads on and temperature variations of the
> crankshaft, bolt, and pulley must have everything to do with why this bolt
> tightens so.
> I remain a little troubled at the axial load in the bolt implied by such a
> torque. But I suppose if you are correct below, that it's possible that this
> microthread design means that a certain torque correlates even less than
> usual to axial load.

> Do you have a citation, online or offline, to back up your assertions below?

They also produce a variety of versions: Quote:

"The Shimmie has been used in Japan for...Railways, earthquake proofing of
buildings, and in reconditioning of airplanes are just some of the applications."
The Shimeru (Japanese term) is a device that can self- tighten nuts and bolts,
keeping torque in tact. For example, wooden structures often contract as
the wood dries with the passing of time, and gaps appear between the wood,
nuts and bolts. Metal can expand and contract with variations in temperatures,
causing bolts to loosen over time [or in areas] that experience strong vibration
and extreme temperature changes... "

"The SHIMMIE device will tighten automatically when any contraction or
expansion occurs thus the cost of maintenance, is greatly reduced, and
safety and structural integrity are maintained. The SHIMMIE may hold up
to strong vibrations, so damage from earthquakes, hurricanes or high
vibration areas are greatly reduced. The SHIMMIE can be produced in
various sizes, materials and preset torque..." - SPACE COAST
TECHNOLOGY

Read more.

http://its-mart.com/moreinfoshimmie.htm

Other citations:

"...Patented Self-Retaining Nut And Bolt..."

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/references.htm

"Burt S." > wrote
> "Elle" > wrote
> > I googled using a number of different keywords and turned up only a few
(and
> > I do mean no more than two) posts to Usenet that talk about such a bolt.
The
> > posts were in automotive or motorcycle newsgroups.
> > I even searched the academic literature. Nothing's turning up.
> > (I don't reject them. I'd like to see a tad more support for them.)
> > I agree the unusually fine thread pitch (even smaller than the standard
fine
> > thread pitch) combined with the loads on and temperature variations of
the
> > crankshaft, bolt, and pulley must have everything to do with why this
bolt
> > tightens so.
> > I remain a little troubled at the axial load in the bolt implied by such
a
> > torque. But I suppose if you are correct below, that it's possible that
this
> > microthread design means that a certain torque correlates even less than
> > usual to axial load.
>
> > Do you have a citation, online or offline, to back up your assertions
below?
>
> They also produce a variety of versions: Quote:
>
> "The Shimmie has been used in Japan for...Railways, earthquake proofing of
> buildings, and in reconditioning of airplanes are just some of the
applications."
> The Shimeru (Japanese term) is a device that can self- tighten nuts and
bolts,
> keeping torque in tact. For example, wooden structures often contract as
> the wood dries with the passing of time, and gaps appear between the wood,
> nuts and bolts. Metal can expand and contract with variations in
temperatures,
> causing bolts to loosen over time [or in areas] that experience strong
vibration
> and extreme temperature changes... "
>
> "The SHIMMIE device will tighten automatically when any contraction or
> expansion occurs thus the cost of maintenance, is greatly reduced, and
> safety and structural integrity are maintained. The SHIMMIE may hold up
> to strong vibrations, so damage from earthquakes, hurricanes or high
> vibration areas are greatly reduced. The SHIMMIE can be produced in
> various sizes, materials and preset torque..." - SPACE COAST
> TECHNOLOGY
>
> Read more.
>
> http://its-mart.com/moreinfoshimmie.htm

What's here (pictured at http://its-mart.com/HOWTOUSESHIMMIE.HTM ) bears
no resemblance to the pulley bolt.

Furthermore, this device was patented only in the last several years.

> Other citations:
>
> "...Patented Self-Retaining Nut And Bolt..."
>
> http://www.boltscience.com/pages/references.htm

Mere mention of a phrase is not a citation.

Where did you first hear the description (or one like it) that you posted
earlier?

Or is it a guess of yours?

"Elle" > wrote in message news
> What's here (pictured at http://its-mart.com/HOWTOUSESHIMMIE.HTM ) bears
> no resemblance to the pulley bolt. Furthermore, this device was patented only in
>the last several years.

The company produces a variety of self-locking bolts, some patents extending
further back. Their Japanese partner website is down so as their PDF's.

> Mere mention of a phrase is not a citation.

I am merely citing (quoting) a phrase that may possibly explain the
theory by a reputable site.

> Where did you first hear the description (or one like it) that you posted
> earlier? Or is it a guess of yours?

I stated my beliefs and explained how it works. No claims made. These are
educated guesses that will eventually require an experiment to unravel the
mystery. I've seen these bolts in mills and laths or AC generators. Sometimes
even finding them on seized (one-way) portable jacks. Like every theory, it
has to be repeatedly be shown in an experiment. Try this experiment with
a new bolt:

Exper 1.) Coat the threads with oil and precisely mark bolt and the pulley.
Torque the bolts to spec. Turn the AC on and give it some harsh transmission
shifts for an undefined time and rpm.

Exper 2.) Coat the face of the bolt and washer with oil and degrease the
threads and precisely mark bolt and the pulley. Torque the bolts to spec.
Turn the AC on and give it some harsh transmission shifts for an undefined
time and rpm.

(Don't just put the bolt under a microscope since the crank bore may have
been specially tapped.)

Explain the results. The bolt should move at least 1/200th of a millimeter on
experiment 1 but not much on experiment 2. Use a flash camera with 3-
megapixels and share your results.

Burt S. wrote:
> If the bolt doesn't tighten itself on a part that has a potential for play then their
> is a potential for the bolt to unwind. Either stake it, castlenut/cotter pin it or in
> this case use a one-way threaded bolt.

interesting...

now if THIS doesnt "muddy the water" i dunno what will

a one way threaded bolt that relies on the pulley moving to tighten
it... whoda thunk it?