#3 misfire on 2000 SW2

I had a guy at the local AutoZone pull codes on my 2000 v-6 wagon.
I've got a couple O2 sensors out and a #3 misfire. I figure I should
change the plugs. The problem is I can't even see the plugs. What's
involved? I looked at a Hane's manual for the car, but it was no help
glad I didn't buy it. Does anyone know where to find instructions
online? I'm not willing to pay Saturn $xxx to change the plugs if I
don't have to. I know I'm gonna have to buy a bunch of those fancy
star shaped sockets, what are those even called? Are there plug wires
that can be replaced or does each plug have its own coil?

Well thanks for your input,
Pau

I've got the lw300 (2001)
The female Torx bits are sold by lisle
This it, I believe http://www.lislecorp.com/tool_detail.cfm?detail=323

Past that you need a fancy pliers to remove and reinstall the snap rings on
the intake plenum tubes. I've been meaning to do the plugs on mine but
haven't had a chance to pick up to pliers yet. I've got the Torx set and the
fuel line separator tools...

Just a note on damage from an old spark plug. As the plugs wear, the gap
increases and the voltage that the ECM sees from the plug firing increases
proportionately. Eventually, it puts more strain on the ECM and spark
module. Likely that the plugs just need to be changed but could also be the
coil over plug module.

A shop manual from Saturn is definitely worth the money if you do an work
yourself. I got mine from Saturn parts but you can also order through
www.helminc.com
Oppie

"Paul" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I had a guy at the local AutoZone pull codes on my 2000 v-6 wagon.
> I've got a couple O2 sensors out and a #3 misfire. I figure I should
> change the plugs. The problem is I can't even see the plugs. What's
> involved? I looked at a Hane's manual for the car, but it was no help
> glad I didn't buy it. Does anyone know where to find instructions
> online? I'm not willing to pay Saturn $xxx to change the plugs if I
> don't have to. I know I'm gonna have to buy a bunch of those fancy
> star shaped sockets, what are those even called? Are there plug wires
> that can be replaced or does each plug have its own coil?
>
> Well thanks for your input,
> Pau
>

How many km/miles on these plugs??

We had a 2000 LS2 sedan; had 178,000 km on it when we sold it; the original
plugs were still in service when sold.
We had several SES "codes" and these were all solved without changing the
spark plugs.
This V6 has the coils attached to the plugs. Plug replacement is a major
task, as the intake plenums need to be removed. Ensuring a good seal on
these plenums is diffucult without the special tools.

If you can repair enough to clear the codes without changing the spark
plugs, give it a try.

If you are in the 200,000km+ (125,000 mile) range the plugs may need to be
replaced.
David

On Oct 15, 1:58 pm, "David" > wrote:
> How many km/miles on these plugs??
>
> We had a 2000 LS2 sedan; had 178,000 km on it when we sold it; the original
> plugs were still in service when sold.
> We had several SES "codes" and these were all solved without changing the
> spark plugs.
> This V6 has the coils attached to the plugs. Plug replacement is a major
> task, as the intake plenums need to be removed. Ensuring a good seal on
> these plenums is diffucult without the special tools.
>
> If you can repair enough to clear the codes without changing the spark
> plugs, give it a try.
>
> If you are in the 200,000km+ (125,000 mile) range the plugs may need to be
> replaced.
> David

The car has 125,000 miles on it. The cylinder is definitely
misfiring, you can feel it when idle. Under load (driving) it is not
really noticeable. If there could be another cause than a bad plug
then I'd like to investigate that..perhaps you could expand on how you
expand on how you cleared your SES codes?
Thanks,
Paul

On Oct 14, 10:42 pm, "oppie" > wrote:
> I've got the lw300 (2001)
> The female Torx bits are sold by lisle
> This it, I believehttp://www.lislecorp.com/tool_detail.cfm?detail=323
>
> Past that you need a fancy pliers to remove and reinstall the snap rings on
> the intake plenum tubes. I've been meaning to do the plugs on mine but
> haven't had a chance to pick up to pliers yet. I've got the Torx set and the
> fuel line separator tools...
>
> Just a note on damage from an old spark plug. As the plugs wear, the gap
> increases and the voltage that the ECM sees from the plug firing increases
> proportionately. Eventually, it puts more strain on the ECM and spark
> module. Likely that the plugs just need to be changed but could also be the
> coil over plug module.
>
> A shop manual from Saturn is definitely worth the money if you do an work
> yourself. I got mine from Saturn parts but you can also order throughwww.helminc.com
> Oppie
>
> "Paul" > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
> >I had a guy at the local AutoZone pull codes on my 2000 v-6 wagon.
> > I've got a couple O2 sensors out and a #3 misfire. I figure I should
> > change the plugs. The problem is I can't even see the plugs. What's
> > involved? I looked at a Hane's manual for the car, but it was no help
> > glad I didn't buy it. Does anyone know where to find instructions
> > online? I'm not willing to pay Saturn $xxx to change the plugs if I
> > don't have to. I know I'm gonna have to buy a bunch of those fancy
> > star shaped sockets, what are those even called? Are there plug wires
> > that can be replaced or does each plug have its own coil?
>
> > Well thanks for your input,
> > Pau

Ah, those are female torx, now I know what to ask for at least.
Hopefully the coil(s) will be ok. Hmm special pliers for the snap
rings. I was planning on using hose clamps. Someone sells ones that
are ~1/4" wide I imagine that should work just fine, right? I do not
have the fuel separator line tool however. It appeared to me that it
just had a latching mechanism that held it together.

This just started last week we haven't put too many miles on it
since. Hopefully the coil is still ok, hopefully.

Thanks Oppie

"Paul" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Oct 14, 10:42 pm, "oppie" > wrote:
>> I've got the lw300 (2001)
>> The female Torx bits are sold by lisle
>> This it, I believehttp://www.lislecorp.com/tool_detail.cfm?detail=323
>>
>> Past that you need a fancy pliers to remove and reinstall the snap rings
>> on
>> the intake plenum tubes. I've been meaning to do the plugs on mine but
>> haven't had a chance to pick up to pliers yet. I've got the Torx set and
>> the
>> fuel line separator tools...
>>
>> Just a note on damage from an old spark plug. As the plugs wear, the gap
>> increases and the voltage that the ECM sees from the plug firing
>> increases
>> proportionately. Eventually, it puts more strain on the ECM and spark
>> module. Likely that the plugs just need to be changed but could also be
>> the
>> coil over plug module.
>>
>> A shop manual from Saturn is definitely worth the money if you do an work
>> yourself. I got mine from Saturn parts but you can also order
>> throughwww.helminc.com
>> Oppie
>>
>> "Paul" > wrote in message
>>
>> oups.com...
>>
>> >I had a guy at the local AutoZone pull codes on my 2000 v-6 wagon.
>> > I've got a couple O2 sensors out and a #3 misfire. I figure I should
>> > change the plugs. The problem is I can't even see the plugs. What's
>> > involved? I looked at a Hane's manual for the car, but it was no help
>> > glad I didn't buy it. Does anyone know where to find instructions
>> > online? I'm not willing to pay Saturn $xxx to change the plugs if I
>> > don't have to. I know I'm gonna have to buy a bunch of those fancy
>> > star shaped sockets, what are those even called? Are there plug wires
>> > that can be replaced or does each plug have its own coil?
>>
>> > Well thanks for your input,
>> > Pau
>
> Ah, those are female torx, now I know what to ask for at least.
> Hopefully the coil(s) will be ok. Hmm special pliers for the snap
> rings. I was planning on using hose clamps. Someone sells ones that
> are ~1/4" wide I imagine that should work just fine, right? I do not
> have the fuel separator line tool however. It appeared to me that it
> just had a latching mechanism that held it together.
>
> This just started last week we haven't put too many miles on it
> since. Hopefully the coil is still ok, hopefully.
>
> Thanks Oppie
>

No problem. The fuel lines need a tool that inserts between the halves and
moves the retention spring out of the way. You will never get it apart
without the tool. They're cheap plastic tool sets. worth having in your tool
box.

Have you ruled out injector or fuel problems? Changed the fuel filter
lately? Checked fuel pressure?
Run some good injector cleaner through the system for possibly a couple of
tank fulls. When idling, the mixture is pretty lean and if the spray pattern
is not good from a fouled injector, it will not ignite - missing.
How is oil consumption on the engine. All Saturns burn a quantity of oil.
Just hope that it is not so much that it causes a miss. Finally check for
vacuum leaks by pinching off vacuum hoses and listening to see if the
missing stops. Might also read out parameters with a scan tool (not a simple
code reader) to see if anything is awry - like fuel trims.

On Oct 16, 1:47 pm, "Oppie" > wrote:
> "Paul" > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Oct 14, 10:42 pm, "oppie" > wrote:
> >> I've got the lw300 (2001)
> >> The female Torx bits are sold by lisle
> >> This it, I believehttp://www.lislecorp.com/tool_detail.cfm?detail=323
>
> >> Past that you need a fancy pliers to remove and reinstall the snap rings
> >> on
> >> the intake plenum tubes. I've been meaning to do the plugs on mine but
> >> haven't had a chance to pick up to pliers yet. I've got the Torx set and
> >> the
> >> fuel line separator tools...
>
> >> Just a note on damage from an old spark plug. As the plugs wear, the gap
> >> increases and the voltage that the ECM sees from the plug firing
> >> increases
> >> proportionately. Eventually, it puts more strain on the ECM and spark
> >> module. Likely that the plugs just need to be changed but could also be
> >> the
> >> coil over plug module.
>
> >> A shop manual from Saturn is definitely worth the money if you do an work
> >> yourself. I got mine from Saturn parts but you can also order
> >> throughwww.helminc.com
> >> Oppie
>
> >> "Paul" > wrote in message
>
> groups.com...
>
> >> >I had a guy at the local AutoZone pull codes on my 2000 v-6 wagon.
> >> > I've got a couple O2 sensors out and a #3 misfire. I figure I should
> >> > change the plugs. The problem is I can't even see the plugs. What's
> >> > involved? I looked at a Hane's manual for the car, but it was no help
> >> > glad I didn't buy it. Does anyone know where to find instructions
> >> > online? I'm not willing to pay Saturn $xxx to change the plugs if I
> >> > don't have to. I know I'm gonna have to buy a bunch of those fancy
> >> > star shaped sockets, what are those even called? Are there plug wires
> >> > that can be replaced or does each plug have its own coil?
>
> >> > Well thanks for your input,
> >> > Pau
>
> > Ah, those are female torx, now I know what to ask for at least.
> > Hopefully the coil(s) will be ok. Hmm special pliers for the snap
> > rings. I was planning on using hose clamps. Someone sells ones that
> > are ~1/4" wide I imagine that should work just fine, right? I do not
> > have the fuel separator line tool however. It appeared to me that it
> > just had a latching mechanism that held it together.
>
> > This just started last week we haven't put too many miles on it
> > since. Hopefully the coil is still ok, hopefully.
>
> > Thanks Oppie
>
> No problem. The fuel lines need a tool that inserts between the halves and
> moves the retention spring out of the way. You will never get it apart
> without the tool. They're cheap plastic tool sets. worth having in your tool
> box.
>
> Have you ruled out injector or fuel problems? Changed the fuel filter
> lately? Checked fuel pressure?
> Run some good injector cleaner through the system for possibly a couple of
> tank fulls. When idling, the mixture is pretty lean and if the spray pattern
> is not good from a fouled injector, it will not ignite - missing.
> How is oil consumption on the engine. All Saturns burn a quantity of oil.
> Just hope that it is not so much that it causes a miss. Finally check for
> vacuum leaks by pinching off vacuum hoses and listening to see if the
> missing stops. Might also read out parameters with a scan tool (not a simple
> code reader) to see if anything is awry - like fuel trims.

I've never changed the fuel filter. I did add some Chevron injector
cleaner at 4x strength, didn't seem to help. I could add more, but
don't have much faith in it. I can check for vacuum leaks, cracked
hoses etc., easy enough. Though I doubt a vacuum leak would cause
only #3 to misfire. It is misfiring at a very regular rate, if that
tells you anything.

I just changed the oil, hell I bet that's it. I put in 5w30 and had
been using 10w30. I bet its pulling in more oil and fowled the plug,
damn. I probably still should change the plugs though with 125,000 mi
on them.

Thanks your replies are greatly appreciated,
Paul

There could be a vacuum leak on one of the plenum boots:

Also, the Saturns are well known for the exhaust valves sticking open a bit
at that mileage.

The reason being that:

1- They ream the valve guides just under 8MM/5-16" at the factory, to help
prevent oil leaking down the stem. (Seals were optional, depending on valve
stem tolerance)

2- The little oil that does go down the stem cokes on the stem, and at
certain RPM ranges, the valve hangs off of the seat slightly.

That's where a leak down test, or even better; a running compression test
comes in. But not applicable on this engine except for the leak down test.

I would suggest you remove the plenum, a do it yourselfer grade of cable
type hose clamp pliers, are available at Auto Zone for about $20.00. (They
really come in handy)

Do the plugs, valve cover gaskets, and at the very least, do a compression
test.

I hope this helps.

RK
"Paul" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Oct 16, 1:47 pm, "Oppie" > wrote:
>> "Paul" > wrote in message
>>
>> oups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Oct 14, 10:42 pm, "oppie" > wrote:
>> >> I've got the lw300 (2001)
>> >> The female Torx bits are sold by lisle
>> >> This it, I believehttp://www.lislecorp.com/tool_detail.cfm?detail=323
>>
>> >> Past that you need a fancy pliers to remove and reinstall the snap
>> >> rings
>> >> on
>> >> the intake plenum tubes. I've been meaning to do the plugs on mine but
>> >> haven't had a chance to pick up to pliers yet. I've got the Torx set
>> >> and
>> >> the
>> >> fuel line separator tools...
>>
>> >> Just a note on damage from an old spark plug. As the plugs wear, the
>> >> gap
>> >> increases and the voltage that the ECM sees from the plug firing
>> >> increases
>> >> proportionately. Eventually, it puts more strain on the ECM and spark
>> >> module. Likely that the plugs just need to be changed but could also
>> >> be
>> >> the
>> >> coil over plug module.
>>
>> >> A shop manual from Saturn is definitely worth the money if you do an
>> >> work
>> >> yourself. I got mine from Saturn parts but you can also order
>> >> throughwww.helminc.com
>> >> Oppie
>>
>> >> "Paul" > wrote in message
>>
>> groups.com...
>>
>> >> >I had a guy at the local AutoZone pull codes on my 2000 v-6 wagon.
>> >> > I've got a couple O2 sensors out and a #3 misfire. I figure I
>> >> > should
>> >> > change the plugs. The problem is I can't even see the plugs.
>> >> > What's
>> >> > involved? I looked at a Hane's manual for the car, but it was no
>> >> > help
>> >> > glad I didn't buy it. Does anyone know where to find instructions
>> >> > online? I'm not willing to pay Saturn $xxx to change the plugs if I
>> >> > don't have to. I know I'm gonna have to buy a bunch of those fancy
>> >> > star shaped sockets, what are those even called? Are there plug
>> >> > wires
>> >> > that can be replaced or does each plug have its own coil?
>>
>> >> > Well thanks for your input,
>> >> > Pau
>>
>> > Ah, those are female torx, now I know what to ask for at least.
>> > Hopefully the coil(s) will be ok. Hmm special pliers for the snap
>> > rings. I was planning on using hose clamps. Someone sells ones that
>> > are ~1/4" wide I imagine that should work just fine, right? I do not
>> > have the fuel separator line tool however. It appeared to me that it
>> > just had a latching mechanism that held it together.
>>
>> > This just started last week we haven't put too many miles on it
>> > since. Hopefully the coil is still ok, hopefully.
>>
>> > Thanks Oppie
>>
>> No problem. The fuel lines need a tool that inserts between the halves
>> and
>> moves the retention spring out of the way. You will never get it apart
>> without the tool. They're cheap plastic tool sets. worth having in your
>> tool
>> box.
>>
>> Have you ruled out injector or fuel problems? Changed the fuel filter
>> lately? Checked fuel pressure?
>> Run some good injector cleaner through the system for possibly a couple
>> of
>> tank fulls. When idling, the mixture is pretty lean and if the spray
>> pattern
>> is not good from a fouled injector, it will not ignite - missing.
>> How is oil consumption on the engine. All Saturns burn a quantity of oil.
>> Just hope that it is not so much that it causes a miss. Finally check for
>> vacuum leaks by pinching off vacuum hoses and listening to see if the
>> missing stops. Might also read out parameters with a scan tool (not a
>> simple
>> code reader) to see if anything is awry - like fuel trims.
>
> I've never changed the fuel filter. I did add some Chevron injector
> cleaner at 4x strength, didn't seem to help. I could add more, but
> don't have much faith in it. I can check for vacuum leaks, cracked
> hoses etc., easy enough. Though I doubt a vacuum leak would cause
> only #3 to misfire. It is misfiring at a very regular rate, if that
> tells you anything.
>
> I just changed the oil, hell I bet that's it. I put in 5w30 and had
> been using 10w30. I bet its pulling in more oil and fowled the plug,
> damn. I probably still should change the plugs though with 125,000 mi
> on them.
>
> Thanks your replies are greatly appreciated,
> Paul
>

"Paul" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Oct 16, 1:47 pm, "Oppie" > wrote:
>> "Paul" > wrote in message
>>
>> oups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Oct 14, 10:42 pm, "oppie" > wrote:
>> >> I've got the lw300 (2001)
>> >> The female Torx bits are sold by lisle
>> >> This it, I believehttp://www.lislecorp.com/tool_detail.cfm?detail=323
>>
>> >> Past that you need a fancy pliers to remove and reinstall the snap
>> >> rings
>> >> on
>> >> the intake plenum tubes. I've been meaning to do the plugs on mine but
>> >> haven't had a chance to pick up to pliers yet. I've got the Torx set
>> >> and
>> >> the
>> >> fuel line separator tools...
>>
>> >> Just a note on damage from an old spark plug. As the plugs wear, the
>> >> gap
>> >> increases and the voltage that the ECM sees from the plug firing
>> >> increases
>> >> proportionately. Eventually, it puts more strain on the ECM and spark
>> >> module. Likely that the plugs just need to be changed but could also
>> >> be
>> >> the
>> >> coil over plug module.
>>
>> >> A shop manual from Saturn is definitely worth the money if you do an
>> >> work
>> >> yourself. I got mine from Saturn parts but you can also order
>> >> throughwww.helminc.com
>> >> Oppie
>>
>> >> "Paul" > wrote in message
>>
>> groups.com...
>>
>> >> >I had a guy at the local AutoZone pull codes on my 2000 v-6 wagon.
>> >> > I've got a couple O2 sensors out and a #3 misfire. I figure I
>> >> > should
>> >> > change the plugs. The problem is I can't even see the plugs.
>> >> > What's
>> >> > involved? I looked at a Hane's manual for the car, but it was no
>> >> > help
>> >> > glad I didn't buy it. Does anyone know where to find instructions
>> >> > online? I'm not willing to pay Saturn $xxx to change the plugs if I
>> >> > don't have to. I know I'm gonna have to buy a bunch of those fancy
>> >> > star shaped sockets, what are those even called? Are there plug
>> >> > wires
>> >> > that can be replaced or does each plug have its own coil?
>>
>> >> > Well thanks for your input,
>> >> > Pau
>>
>> > Ah, those are female torx, now I know what to ask for at least.
>> > Hopefully the coil(s) will be ok. Hmm special pliers for the snap
>> > rings. I was planning on using hose clamps. Someone sells ones that
>> > are ~1/4" wide I imagine that should work just fine, right? I do not
>> > have the fuel separator line tool however. It appeared to me that it
>> > just had a latching mechanism that held it together.
>>
>> > This just started last week we haven't put too many miles on it
>> > since. Hopefully the coil is still ok, hopefully.
>>
>> > Thanks Oppie
>>
>> No problem. The fuel lines need a tool that inserts between the halves
>> and
>> moves the retention spring out of the way. You will never get it apart
>> without the tool. They're cheap plastic tool sets. worth having in your
>> tool
>> box.
>>
>> Have you ruled out injector or fuel problems? Changed the fuel filter
>> lately? Checked fuel pressure?
>> Run some good injector cleaner through the system for possibly a couple
>> of
>> tank fulls. When idling, the mixture is pretty lean and if the spray
>> pattern
>> is not good from a fouled injector, it will not ignite - missing.
>> How is oil consumption on the engine. All Saturns burn a quantity of oil.
>> Just hope that it is not so much that it causes a miss. Finally check for
>> vacuum leaks by pinching off vacuum hoses and listening to see if the
>> missing stops. Might also read out parameters with a scan tool (not a
>> simple
>> code reader) to see if anything is awry - like fuel trims.
>
> I've never changed the fuel filter. I did add some Chevron injector
> cleaner at 4x strength, didn't seem to help. I could add more, but
> don't have much faith in it. I can check for vacuum leaks, cracked
> hoses etc., easy enough. Though I doubt a vacuum leak would cause
> only #3 to misfire. It is misfiring at a very regular rate, if that
> tells you anything.
>
> I just changed the oil, hell I bet that's it. I put in 5w30 and had
> been using 10w30. I bet its pulling in more oil and fowled the plug,
> damn. I probably still should change the plugs though with 125,000 mi
> on them.
>
> Thanks your replies are greatly appreciated,
> Paul
>

Changing the fuel filter is cheap insurance. A bit of crud that gets into
the injectors is expensive to fix. You'll notice a lack of power or
hesitation on acceleration due to flow restriction from a dirty fuel filter.
Shouldn't affect idle much though.

A single cylinder misfire due to a vacuum leak sometimes happens from a leak
in the intake manifold near that cylinder. The tried and true diagnostic
method is to do a visual first - then use a propane torch (flame off and
just as a gas source) and go over all the joints. The gas will get sucked
into any leaking joint and you will hear a change in the rpm or misfire.
Propane is heavier than air so will sink - in still air.

Can also use a stethescope to listen for sucking sounds.

On Oct 16, 8:44 pm, "Refinish King" > wrote:
> There could be a vacuum leak on one of the plenum boots:
>
> Also, the Saturns are well known for the exhaust valves sticking open a bit
> at that mileage.
>
> The reason being that:
>
> 1- They ream the valve guides just under 8MM/5-16" at the factory, to help
> prevent oil leaking down the stem. (Seals were optional, depending on valve
> stem tolerance)
>
> 2- The little oil that does go down the stem cokes on the stem, and at
> certain RPM ranges, the valve hangs off of the seat slightly.
>
> That's where a leak down test, or even better; a running compression test
> comes in. But not applicable on this engine except for the leak down test.
>
> I would suggest you remove the plenum, a do it yourselfer grade of cable
> type hose clamp pliers, are available at Auto Zone for about $20.00. (They
> really come in handy)
>
> Do the plugs, valve cover gaskets, and at the very least, do a compression
> test.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> RK"Paul" > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
> > On Oct 16, 1:47 pm, "Oppie" > wrote:
> >> "Paul" > wrote in message
>
> groups.com...
>
> >> > On Oct 14, 10:42 pm, "oppie" > wrote:
> >> >> I've got the lw300 (2001)
> >> >> The female Torx bits are sold by lisle
> >> >> This it, I believehttp://www.lislecorp.com/tool_detail.cfm?detail=323
>
> >> >> Past that you need a fancy pliers to remove and reinstall the snap
> >> >> rings
> >> >> on
> >> >> the intake plenum tubes. I've been meaning to do the plugs on mine but
> >> >> haven't had a chance to pick up to pliers yet. I've got the Torx set
> >> >> and
> >> >> the
> >> >> fuel line separator tools...
>
> >> >> Just a note on damage from an old spark plug. As the plugs wear, the
> >> >> gap
> >> >> increases and the voltage that the ECM sees from the plug firing
> >> >> increases
> >> >> proportionately. Eventually, it puts more strain on the ECM and spark
> >> >> module. Likely that the plugs just need to be changed but could also
> >> >> be
> >> >> the
> >> >> coil over plug module.
>
> >> >> A shop manual from Saturn is definitely worth the money if you do an
> >> >> work
> >> >> yourself. I got mine from Saturn parts but you can also order
> >> >> throughwww.helminc.com
> >> >> Oppie
>
> >> >> "Paul" > wrote in message
>
> >> groups.com...
>
> >> >> >I had a guy at the local AutoZone pull codes on my 2000 v-6 wagon.
> >> >> > I've got a couple O2 sensors out and a #3 misfire. I figure I
> >> >> > should
> >> >> > change the plugs. The problem is I can't even see the plugs.
> >> >> > What's
> >> >> > involved? I looked at a Hane's manual for the car, but it was no
> >> >> > help
> >> >> > glad I didn't buy it. Does anyone know where to find instructions
> >> >> > online? I'm not willing to pay Saturn $xxx to change the plugs if I
> >> >> > don't have to. I know I'm gonna have to buy a bunch of those fancy
> >> >> > star shaped sockets, what are those even called? Are there plug
> >> >> > wires
> >> >> > that can be replaced or does each plug have its own coil?
>
> >> >> > Well thanks for your input,
> >> >> > Pau
>
> >> > Ah, those are female torx, now I know what to ask for at least.
> >> > Hopefully the coil(s) will be ok. Hmm special pliers for the snap
> >> > rings. I was planning on using hose clamps. Someone sells ones that
> >> > are ~1/4" wide I imagine that should work just fine, right? I do not
> >> > have the fuel separator line tool however. It appeared to me that it
> >> > just had a latching mechanism that held it together.
>
> >> > This just started last week we haven't put too many miles on it
> >> > since. Hopefully the coil is still ok, hopefully.
>
> >> > Thanks Oppie
>
> >> No problem. The fuel lines need a tool that inserts between the halves
> >> and
> >> moves the retention spring out of the way. You will never get it apart
> >> without the tool. They're cheap plastic tool sets. worth having in your
> >> tool
> >> box.
>
> >> Have you ruled out injector or fuel problems? Changed the fuel filter
> >> lately? Checked fuel pressure?
> >> Run some good injector cleaner through the system for possibly a couple
> >> of
> >> tank fulls. When idling, the mixture is pretty lean and if the spray
> >> pattern
> >> is not good from a fouled injector, it will not ignite - missing.
> >> How is oil consumption on the engine. All Saturns burn a quantity of oil.
> >> Just hope that it is not so much that it causes a miss. Finally check for
> >> vacuum leaks by pinching off vacuum hoses and listening to see if the
> >> missing stops. Might also read out parameters with a scan tool (not a
> >> simple
> >> code reader) to see if anything is awry - like fuel trims.
>
> > I've never changed the fuel filter. I did add some Chevron injector
> > cleaner at 4x strength, didn't seem to help. I could add more, but
> > don't have much faith in it. I can check for vacuum leaks, cracked
> > hoses etc., easy enough. Though I doubt a vacuum leak would cause
> > only #3 to misfire. It is misfiring at a very regular rate, if that
> > tells you anything.
>
> > I just changed the oil, hell I bet that's it. I put in 5w30 and had
> > been using 10w30. I bet its pulling in more oil and fowled the plug,
> > damn. I probably still should change the plugs though with 125,000 mi
> > on them.
>
> > Thanks your replies are greatly appreciated,
> > Paul

Hey RK, What do you mean by "a do it yourselfer grade of cable
type hose clamp pliers, are available at Auto Zone for about $20.00.
(They
really come in handy) "? Are these pliers to remove the snapped-on
type hose clamps?

Thanks for the info,
Paul

PS I may need info on removing oxidation on my '68 Mustang after I'm
done with this don't go away, just yet!