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#3 misfire on 2000 SW2



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 17th 07, 10:00 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.saturn
Paul[_18_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default #3 misfire on 2000 SW2

On Oct 16, 8:44 pm, "Refinish King" > wrote:
> There could be a vacuum leak on one of the plenum boots:
>
> Also, the Saturns are well known for the exhaust valves sticking open a bit
> at that mileage.
>
> The reason being that:
>
> 1- They ream the valve guides just under 8MM/5-16" at the factory, to help
> prevent oil leaking down the stem. (Seals were optional, depending on valve
> stem tolerance)
>
> 2- The little oil that does go down the stem cokes on the stem, and at
> certain RPM ranges, the valve hangs off of the seat slightly.
>
> That's where a leak down test, or even better; a running compression test
> comes in. But not applicable on this engine except for the leak down test.
>
> I would suggest you remove the plenum, a do it yourselfer grade of cable
> type hose clamp pliers, are available at Auto Zone for about $20.00. (They
> really come in handy)
>
> Do the plugs, valve cover gaskets, and at the very least, do a compression
> test.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> RK"Paul" > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
> > On Oct 16, 1:47 pm, "Oppie" > wrote:
> >> "Paul" > wrote in message

>
> groups.com...

>
> >> > On Oct 14, 10:42 pm, "oppie" > wrote:
> >> >> I've got the lw300 (2001)
> >> >> The female Torx bits are sold by lisle
> >> >> This it, I believehttp://www.lislecorp.com/tool_detail.cfm?detail=323

>
> >> >> Past that you need a fancy pliers to remove and reinstall the snap
> >> >> rings
> >> >> on
> >> >> the intake plenum tubes. I've been meaning to do the plugs on mine but
> >> >> haven't had a chance to pick up to pliers yet. I've got the Torx set
> >> >> and
> >> >> the
> >> >> fuel line separator tools...

>
> >> >> Just a note on damage from an old spark plug. As the plugs wear, the
> >> >> gap
> >> >> increases and the voltage that the ECM sees from the plug firing
> >> >> increases
> >> >> proportionately. Eventually, it puts more strain on the ECM and spark
> >> >> module. Likely that the plugs just need to be changed but could also
> >> >> be
> >> >> the
> >> >> coil over plug module.

>
> >> >> A shop manual from Saturn is definitely worth the money if you do an
> >> >> work
> >> >> yourself. I got mine from Saturn parts but you can also order
> >> >> throughwww.helminc.com
> >> >> Oppie

>
> >> >> "Paul" > wrote in message

>
> >> groups.com...

>
> >> >> >I had a guy at the local AutoZone pull codes on my 2000 v-6 wagon.
> >> >> > I've got a couple O2 sensors out and a #3 misfire. I figure I
> >> >> > should
> >> >> > change the plugs. The problem is I can't even see the plugs.
> >> >> > What's
> >> >> > involved? I looked at a Hane's manual for the car, but it was no
> >> >> > help
> >> >> > glad I didn't buy it. Does anyone know where to find instructions
> >> >> > online? I'm not willing to pay Saturn $xxx to change the plugs if I
> >> >> > don't have to. I know I'm gonna have to buy a bunch of those fancy
> >> >> > star shaped sockets, what are those even called? Are there plug
> >> >> > wires
> >> >> > that can be replaced or does each plug have its own coil?

>
> >> >> > Well thanks for your input,
> >> >> > Pau

>
> >> > Ah, those are female torx, now I know what to ask for at least.
> >> > Hopefully the coil(s) will be ok. Hmm special pliers for the snap
> >> > rings. I was planning on using hose clamps. Someone sells ones that
> >> > are ~1/4" wide I imagine that should work just fine, right? I do not
> >> > have the fuel separator line tool however. It appeared to me that it
> >> > just had a latching mechanism that held it together.

>
> >> > This just started last week we haven't put too many miles on it
> >> > since. Hopefully the coil is still ok, hopefully.

>
> >> > Thanks Oppie

>
> >> No problem. The fuel lines need a tool that inserts between the halves
> >> and
> >> moves the retention spring out of the way. You will never get it apart
> >> without the tool. They're cheap plastic tool sets. worth having in your
> >> tool
> >> box.

>
> >> Have you ruled out injector or fuel problems? Changed the fuel filter
> >> lately? Checked fuel pressure?
> >> Run some good injector cleaner through the system for possibly a couple
> >> of
> >> tank fulls. When idling, the mixture is pretty lean and if the spray
> >> pattern
> >> is not good from a fouled injector, it will not ignite - missing.
> >> How is oil consumption on the engine. All Saturns burn a quantity of oil.
> >> Just hope that it is not so much that it causes a miss. Finally check for
> >> vacuum leaks by pinching off vacuum hoses and listening to see if the
> >> missing stops. Might also read out parameters with a scan tool (not a
> >> simple
> >> code reader) to see if anything is awry - like fuel trims.

>
> > I've never changed the fuel filter. I did add some Chevron injector
> > cleaner at 4x strength, didn't seem to help. I could add more, but
> > don't have much faith in it. I can check for vacuum leaks, cracked
> > hoses etc., easy enough. Though I doubt a vacuum leak would cause
> > only #3 to misfire. It is misfiring at a very regular rate, if that
> > tells you anything.

>
> > I just changed the oil, hell I bet that's it. I put in 5w30 and had
> > been using 10w30. I bet its pulling in more oil and fowled the plug,
> > damn. I probably still should change the plugs though with 125,000 mi
> > on them.

>
> > Thanks your replies are greatly appreciated,
> > Paul


Hey Oppie,
Thanks for the tips on checking for vacuum leaks, I've never heard of
using propane, cool. I've also got a stethoscope, maybe I'll use
both. I've already got my f-torx bit set. I found them locally for
$30 hopefully I'll get to use them before they come out with a
different style.

I saw a plastic set of AC Fuel line removal tools at a parts store,
but couldn't figure out how they applied to the (braided metal) fuel
lines on my 6cyl. I remember needing something similar when I
replaced the fuel filter on my '94 Saturn. I'll need to look at it
again and get a better feel for what I need.

Again much thanks,
Paul

Ads
  #12  
Old October 18th 07, 12:01 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.saturn
Refinish King
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 39
Default #3 misfire on 2000 SW2

On the L300's I worked on:

The clamps were like the spring type clamps.

With a flat on one side, and two flat flanges across.

RK
"Paul" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> On Oct 16, 8:44 pm, "Refinish King" > wrote:
>> There could be a vacuum leak on one of the plenum boots:
>>
>> Also, the Saturns are well known for the exhaust valves sticking open a
>> bit
>> at that mileage.
>>
>> The reason being that:
>>
>> 1- They ream the valve guides just under 8MM/5-16" at the factory, to
>> help
>> prevent oil leaking down the stem. (Seals were optional, depending on
>> valve
>> stem tolerance)
>>
>> 2- The little oil that does go down the stem cokes on the stem, and at
>> certain RPM ranges, the valve hangs off of the seat slightly.
>>
>> That's where a leak down test, or even better; a running compression test
>> comes in. But not applicable on this engine except for the leak down
>> test.
>>
>> I would suggest you remove the plenum, a do it yourselfer grade of cable
>> type hose clamp pliers, are available at Auto Zone for about $20.00.
>> (They
>> really come in handy)
>>
>> Do the plugs, valve cover gaskets, and at the very least, do a
>> compression
>> test.
>>
>> I hope this helps.
>>
>> RK"Paul" > wrote in message
>>
>> oups.com...
>>
>> > On Oct 16, 1:47 pm, "Oppie" > wrote:
>> >> "Paul" > wrote in message

>>
>> groups.com...

>>
>> >> > On Oct 14, 10:42 pm, "oppie" > wrote:
>> >> >> I've got the lw300 (2001)
>> >> >> The female Torx bits are sold by lisle
>> >> >> This it, I
>> >> >> believehttp://www.lislecorp.com/tool_detail.cfm?detail=323

>>
>> >> >> Past that you need a fancy pliers to remove and reinstall the snap
>> >> >> rings
>> >> >> on
>> >> >> the intake plenum tubes. I've been meaning to do the plugs on mine
>> >> >> but
>> >> >> haven't had a chance to pick up to pliers yet. I've got the Torx
>> >> >> set
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> fuel line separator tools...

>>
>> >> >> Just a note on damage from an old spark plug. As the plugs wear,
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> gap
>> >> >> increases and the voltage that the ECM sees from the plug firing
>> >> >> increases
>> >> >> proportionately. Eventually, it puts more strain on the ECM and
>> >> >> spark
>> >> >> module. Likely that the plugs just need to be changed but could
>> >> >> also
>> >> >> be
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> coil over plug module.

>>
>> >> >> A shop manual from Saturn is definitely worth the money if you do
>> >> >> an
>> >> >> work
>> >> >> yourself. I got mine from Saturn parts but you can also order
>> >> >> throughwww.helminc.com
>> >> >> Oppie

>>
>> >> >> "Paul" > wrote in message

>>
>> >> groups.com...

>>
>> >> >> >I had a guy at the local AutoZone pull codes on my 2000 v-6 wagon.
>> >> >> > I've got a couple O2 sensors out and a #3 misfire. I figure I
>> >> >> > should
>> >> >> > change the plugs. The problem is I can't even see the plugs.
>> >> >> > What's
>> >> >> > involved? I looked at a Hane's manual for the car, but it was no
>> >> >> > help
>> >> >> > glad I didn't buy it. Does anyone know where to find
>> >> >> > instructions
>> >> >> > online? I'm not willing to pay Saturn $xxx to change the plugs
>> >> >> > if I
>> >> >> > don't have to. I know I'm gonna have to buy a bunch of those
>> >> >> > fancy
>> >> >> > star shaped sockets, what are those even called? Are there plug
>> >> >> > wires
>> >> >> > that can be replaced or does each plug have its own coil?

>>
>> >> >> > Well thanks for your input,
>> >> >> > Pau

>>
>> >> > Ah, those are female torx, now I know what to ask for at least.
>> >> > Hopefully the coil(s) will be ok. Hmm special pliers for the snap
>> >> > rings. I was planning on using hose clamps. Someone sells ones
>> >> > that
>> >> > are ~1/4" wide I imagine that should work just fine, right? I do
>> >> > not
>> >> > have the fuel separator line tool however. It appeared to me that it
>> >> > just had a latching mechanism that held it together.

>>
>> >> > This just started last week we haven't put too many miles on it
>> >> > since. Hopefully the coil is still ok, hopefully.

>>
>> >> > Thanks Oppie

>>
>> >> No problem. The fuel lines need a tool that inserts between the halves
>> >> and
>> >> moves the retention spring out of the way. You will never get it apart
>> >> without the tool. They're cheap plastic tool sets. worth having in
>> >> your
>> >> tool
>> >> box.

>>
>> >> Have you ruled out injector or fuel problems? Changed the fuel filter
>> >> lately? Checked fuel pressure?
>> >> Run some good injector cleaner through the system for possibly a
>> >> couple
>> >> of
>> >> tank fulls. When idling, the mixture is pretty lean and if the spray
>> >> pattern
>> >> is not good from a fouled injector, it will not ignite - missing.
>> >> How is oil consumption on the engine. All Saturns burn a quantity of
>> >> oil.
>> >> Just hope that it is not so much that it causes a miss. Finally check
>> >> for
>> >> vacuum leaks by pinching off vacuum hoses and listening to see if the
>> >> missing stops. Might also read out parameters with a scan tool (not a
>> >> simple
>> >> code reader) to see if anything is awry - like fuel trims.

>>
>> > I've never changed the fuel filter. I did add some Chevron injector
>> > cleaner at 4x strength, didn't seem to help. I could add more, but
>> > don't have much faith in it. I can check for vacuum leaks, cracked
>> > hoses etc., easy enough. Though I doubt a vacuum leak would cause
>> > only #3 to misfire. It is misfiring at a very regular rate, if that
>> > tells you anything.

>>
>> > I just changed the oil, hell I bet that's it. I put in 5w30 and had
>> > been using 10w30. I bet its pulling in more oil and fowled the plug,
>> > damn. I probably still should change the plugs though with 125,000 mi
>> > on them.

>>
>> > Thanks your replies are greatly appreciated,
>> > Paul

>
> Hey RK, What do you mean by "a do it yourselfer grade of cable
> type hose clamp pliers, are available at Auto Zone for about $20.00.
> (They
> really come in handy) "? Are these pliers to remove the snapped-on
> type hose clamps?
>
> Thanks for the info,
> Paul
>
> PS I may need info on removing oxidation on my '68 Mustang after I'm
> done with this don't go away, just yet!
>



  #13  
Old October 18th 07, 01:07 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.saturn
Oppie[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 159
Default ot - 68 mustang


"Paul" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> PS I may need info on removing oxidation on my '68 Mustang after I'm
> done with this don't go away, just yet!
>


My son rebuilt a '68 mustang over the last couple of years. He got the car
by way of ebay motors and had it shipped from Los Angeles to here in NY. Not
a numbers match so just a fun car.

Gutted it
Crate engine from Bill Mitchell.
Nitrous kit (not tried yet).
MSD electronic ignition.
New 5speed transmission (the one used in new 'stangs) Had to re-size drive
shaft.
Replace dashboard with a new electronic one. Gauges all look original but
are electronically driven from a module. Uses all new transducers and
sensors.
Air ride suspension with automatic ride controller.
Rack and pinion steering conversion.
Racing suspension front and rear.
Roll cage and 5 point harnesses.
custom stainless steel headers and exhaust system.

The engine was contracted to be a fairly base model. When he drove out to
pick it up, he was offered a *much* more exotic engine that a racing team
lost their deposit on - for the same money (about 8G)
For quite some time, we had almost daily deliveries from Mustangs Unlimited
and other suppliers.

He did an impressive job on it. I am still having trouble reconciling that
he spent as much on the custom exhaust as I spent on my used Saturn LW300...
He just got married and bought a house. Most likely anything new on the car
will wait a while.


  #14  
Old October 18th 07, 04:04 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.saturn
Paul[_18_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default ot - 68 mustang

On Oct 18, 8:07 am, "Oppie" > wrote:
> "Paul" > wrote in message
>
> ps.com...
>
>
>
> > PS I may need info on removing oxidation on my '68 Mustang after I'm
> > done with this don't go away, just yet!

>
> My son rebuilt a '68 mustang over the last couple of years. He got the car
> by way of ebay motors and had it shipped from Los Angeles to here in NY. Not
> a numbers match so just a fun car.
>
> Gutted it
> Crate engine from Bill Mitchell.
> Nitrous kit (not tried yet).
> MSD electronic ignition.
> New 5speed transmission (the one used in new 'stangs) Had to re-size drive
> shaft.
> Replace dashboard with a new electronic one. Gauges all look original but
> are electronically driven from a module. Uses all new transducers and
> sensors.
> Air ride suspension with automatic ride controller.
> Rack and pinion steering conversion.
> Racing suspension front and rear.
> Roll cage and 5 point harnesses.
> custom stainless steel headers and exhaust system.
>
> The engine was contracted to be a fairly base model. When he drove out to
> pick it up, he was offered a *much* more exotic engine that a racing team
> lost their deposit on - for the same money (about 8G)
> For quite some time, we had almost daily deliveries from Mustangs Unlimited
> and other suppliers.
>
> He did an impressive job on it. I am still having trouble reconciling that
> he spent as much on the custom exhaust as I spent on my used Saturn LW300...
> He just got married and bought a house. Most likely anything new on the car
> will wait a while.


My '68 is a daily driver, I've had a child's seat in the back since I
brought it home. Drive it to/from work every day and drop the kids off
at school/daycare. I work on it to keep it going. It's got a big
Holley 4bbl on a 289 and a Holley intake/exhaust. My latest work on
it was doing a Shelby mod on the upper A arms when replacing the
springs and ball joints. I've installed racing seats. I wish I had
the $$ to do what your son did on his but wife, kids, mortgage.. he'll
see soon enough. Have your son check out National Parts Depot (NPD)
he can download their catalog at http://npdlink.com/ . Their prices,
parts, stock and service, imo, are superior to Mustangs Unlimited.

Last night I looked things over and it doesn't look like I'll even
have to touch the fuel lines to get to the plugs [If the plugs are
beneath the ignition packs(?)]. I would need the tool to remove the
fuel lines for sure. I removed the battery cable on the car to reset
the codes. Upon restarting. the car ran fine at idle, bring it up to
1000rpm and it was rough past 1200 and it was fine. Drove it a little
and it seemed fine. Started it and it ran like crap again. I don't
know if that tells you anything, but I thought it was interesting that
without the "computer" having any saved information about the car it
ran much better. Still planning on replacing the plugs, filter and
boots(if the boots are replaceable).

Later,
Paul

  #15  
Old October 18th 07, 06:59 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.saturn
Oppie[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 159
Default #3 misfire on 2000 SW2


"Paul" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Oct 18, 8:07 am, "Oppie" > wrote:
>> "Paul" > wrote in message
>>
>> ps.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > PS I may need info on removing oxidation on my '68 Mustang after I'm
>> > done with this don't go away, just yet!

>>
>> My son rebuilt a '68 mustang over the last couple of years. He got the
>> car
>> by way of ebay motors and had it shipped from Los Angeles to here in NY.
>> Not
>> a numbers match so just a fun car.
>>
>> Gutted it
>> Crate engine from Bill Mitchell.
>> Nitrous kit (not tried yet).
>> MSD electronic ignition.
>> New 5speed transmission (the one used in new 'stangs) Had to re-size
>> drive
>> shaft.
>> Replace dashboard with a new electronic one. Gauges all look original but
>> are electronically driven from a module. Uses all new transducers and
>> sensors.
>> Air ride suspension with automatic ride controller.
>> Rack and pinion steering conversion.
>> Racing suspension front and rear.
>> Roll cage and 5 point harnesses.
>> custom stainless steel headers and exhaust system.
>>
>> The engine was contracted to be a fairly base model. When he drove out to
>> pick it up, he was offered a *much* more exotic engine that a racing team
>> lost their deposit on - for the same money (about 8G)
>> For quite some time, we had almost daily deliveries from Mustangs
>> Unlimited
>> and other suppliers.
>>
>> He did an impressive job on it. I am still having trouble reconciling
>> that
>> he spent as much on the custom exhaust as I spent on my used Saturn
>> LW300...
>> He just got married and bought a house. Most likely anything new on the
>> car
>> will wait a while.

>
> My '68 is a daily driver, I've had a child's seat in the back since I
> brought it home. Drive it to/from work every day and drop the kids off
> at school/daycare. I work on it to keep it going. It's got a big
> Holley 4bbl on a 289 and a Holley intake/exhaust. My latest work on
> it was doing a Shelby mod on the upper A arms when replacing the
> springs and ball joints. I've installed racing seats. I wish I had
> the $$ to do what your son did on his but wife, kids, mortgage.. he'll
> see soon enough. Have your son check out National Parts Depot (NPD)
> he can download their catalog at http://npdlink.com/ . Their prices,
> parts, stock and service, imo, are superior to Mustangs Unlimited.
>
> Last night I looked things over and it doesn't look like I'll even
> have to touch the fuel lines to get to the plugs [If the plugs are
> beneath the ignition packs(?)]. I would need the tool to remove the
> fuel lines for sure. I removed the battery cable on the car to reset
> the codes. Upon restarting. the car ran fine at idle, bring it up to
> 1000rpm and it was rough past 1200 and it was fine. Drove it a little
> and it seemed fine. Started it and it ran like crap again. I don't
> know if that tells you anything, but I thought it was interesting that
> without the "computer" having any saved information about the car it
> ran much better. Still planning on replacing the plugs, filter and
> boots(if the boots are replaceable).
>
> Later,
> Paul
>


Plugs are under the ignition packs but there is a lot that has to be removed
to get to them.

Simple way on the L series to reset the codes is to pull out the 'Controls
B+' fuse for 20 seconds. This resets the ECU but doesn't loose your radio
presets...

Past that, I couldn't hazard a guess on what's wrong. when in doubt, take it
to a good independant mechanic for a diagnosis.

Thanks for the NDP link, I'll pass it on. (at this point, he's got $70G into
the car.)

Oppie


 




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